Erklitt

Had the exact same thought. Said sullying made me discard it - that and the fact that I really like the 'resurrected' idea and Jezrien hasn't died (latest desolation at least). But who knows...

@Dahak I love mad theories, and I think you're really on to something! Technically, the chapter title might refer to Szeth. He features in this chapter, and as the heading speaks in the past ('owned') he would qualify. But this short scene hardly deserves to determine the chapter heading, and so this indeed looks rather like a red herring. Add FeatherWriter's old but recently remembered theory about SA telling the story of the afterlife, and the name of Mraize's organization: Ghostbloods. Whether he's really Tanavast I don't know; when Wit speaks about him in that epilogue he does so in the past tense. I would have taken Mraize for a dragon due to the fact that he reminds Shallan of Hoid. But I absolutely buy into your theory that he's someone revived, and that chapter title really refers to him.

Whom did Szeth see using Stormlight? My guess would be himself, but I agree, it really could have been anyone. As for the ShiSha's hoping rather than believing the Voidbringers are gone: totally agreed. But I have a very different opinion of Nale. He's not after true justice, he's after Surgebinders. Only he still considers himself the herald of justice and won't act without any 'lawful claim'. He doesn't hunt criminals on any general scale; the only people he hunts are Surgebinders. And with them he'll go to great lengths to find some criminal act in their past to give him a 'legal reason' for his persecution. The way he drags out a very old case against Ym is proof of that. I'm sure there would be worse criminals for him to hunt if he had the mind. And he doesn't really pardon Lift; he just stops acting against her for the time being after his 'legal handhold' against her is voided - no doubt waiting for the next opportunity. With Dalinar, of course Nale would never admit that it's Dalinar's advancement of KR's that he's at odds with. He'd certainly find 'better reasons' to act against him, and surely Dalinar's past is full of acts that would give Nale a handhold. There's no doubt in my mind he'd search for - and find - one.

Quite true (pun not intended). I thought about whether they might be 'the ones'. Problem is: iirc Pattern at one point speaks about dead / mindless cryptics after the Recreance. That would seem to show the Lightweavers weren't faithful either.

Your guess is as good as mine... which would be: depends on how important for greater events this is. I think Renarin's visions are something like Taravangian did in his Diagram: extrapolating the future from the present. Only in Renarin's case, it would be enhanced by a unique knowledge of what is currently going on not only in the physical realm but in the cognitive and maybe spiritual realms as well, provided by his spren. He's is not always right, as his "We are all dead" at the oathgate proves. And I think the spren only shows him what he needs to know to help saving the world... anything more would be a complete overload. So I doubt he'll know about Adolin and Sadeas, but it's not impossible. I agree (and hope) that Adolin will probably tell one of them. And I certainly don't see Dalinar pushing him away as a person. However, I'm afraid those who are worried about Dalinar getting into a quandary between his love for his son and his duty to Alethkar have a disturbingly good point, so I'm not so sure about it not going much farther.

There are those who believe the desolation will not come again. Even the heralds seem to have hoped for that. (Jezrien to Kelek in the Prologue: "We'll tell them we won ... Who knows, maybe that will prove true?" (Quoted roughly from memory) I don't see why the faithful order shouldn't have the same hope. As for to whom Szeth spoke, I think there's currently no better answer than 'The Stone Shamanate of Shinovar', whatever that is exactly. I'd guess their spritual leadership at least, maybe political as well. Some kind of ruling body. I'm not sure Szeth, under Nalan's guidance, will align with whom he tried to kill before. Whatever Nalan's motives, he is evidently bent on killing the very KR that Dalinar is trying to gather. However, I have no doubt of Chaos ! This topic has really roused my curiosity. I've tried to find out what I could about the Shin beliefs (other than their reverence for stone). There's really not much to go by, most of it is in two passages. Everything else I could find just repeats part of what is found in those. The first is the one the beginning of which I cited in my OP (WoR Interlude 10) The second is in the scene between Szeth an Nalan (WoR Ch. 88 The Man Who Owned the Winds): Several other questions come to mind: - What exactly did Szeth tell them? What has he seen or felt? - Who are the 'spirits (Shin) / spren (Nalan) of the stones' that promised the Voidbringers were no more? - What is behind that whole 'truthless' business? What are the shamanate's motives for such punishment? - What is Nalan planning? I thought about this some more, trying to do so independently of my OP theory. This is what I would guess from the few hints we have: The ShiSha (Shin Shamanate) hope that their 'spirits' (whoever those are, I have no idea) are right about the Voidbringers being gone for good, but they are not as sure as they claim. In fact they worry that certain events - e.g. a refounding of the KR - could lead to another desolation. In this I think they might be sitting in the same boat with Nalan. (There seem to be pretty different theories about cause and effect flying around among Sons of Honor, Shin, Honor himself etc.) Szeth saw or felt something - my guess would be he had a spren trying to bond with him. I have no idea how else he could have known about the Voidbringers' return years before it happened. And in that case, the punishment makes some sort of twisted sense: condemn the budding Radiant to a life of murder - he's certain to loose his spren that way (constantly going against life before death). Give him an Honorblade: helps him be a good murderer and will hide any real Radiant effect by overlaying it. Whatever the reason, Shin and Nalan seem to agree that the KR are not wanted nowadays. So why does Nalan want to send Szeth to the Shamanate for judgment? ... And again, I revert to my OP. (I am a gal of one idea currently, it seems.) Nalan wants all KR dead. Including those belonging to that one remaining order. Nightblood would be an excellent tool for killing a whole group of people who have proven themselves not the most ethical of rulers. What remains a mystery to me is the whole stone thing: the Shin's reverence for stone and their reluctance to walk on it, the 'Stone spirits'... haven't found any good explanation there yet.

Shallastick ?!?!? That word alone really sent me rolling on the floor, laughing! (And as a usually silent admirer of you art, @sheep, I'll take this opportunity to thank you for those special moments! My all-time favorites are still the "Let's draw... (K/S/A)" series - that was another ROFL moment.)

Do you have a favorite candidate? I'm thinking... The Sons of Honor want to reestablish a Hierocracy. Doesn't exactly sound like a likely KR project to me. The Ghostbloods seem to be a rather mixed-world organization, based on Mraize (his collection and his similarity to Hoid) and Iyatil. Of course the KRs could have allied themselves with worldhoppers. But if it were them, why the frantic search for Urithiru? Shouldn't they have a tradition of where it is? The idea about hiding among the ardents is interesting. However, thinking about the ardents we've met so far, I find no likely candidate. Kabsal comes to mind for a moment, which would point again to the Ghostbloods. On the other hand, he never seems to have been a true ardent, at least not in Kharbranth. Taravangian and the Diagram? That would mean that the 'faithful order' hasn't kept anything like a high ethical standard. (Same with the Ghostbloods). Otherwise, not impossible. Saving something of humanity would at least fit their ultimate goals. Thinking this all through, I still find my suggestion more likely. All the more so since I just remebered Szeth knows Urithiru! Just checked: He hasn't just found a nice high tower by accident, he knows what it is. While the Sons of Honor and Ghostbloods are both searching. Still, I'm open to persuasion.

As far as I know, that's one theory. Or is there a WoB about it? That would indeed be the death of my theory. I always considered that theory as possible but not compelling. We only see Nalan himself and Szeth, no other Skybreaker. The way he goes about his crazy kind of justice doesn't look so different to me from the other heralds' insanity we've seen so far. And in his meeting with Szeth I think he's lying. He talks about Szeth becoming a Skybreaker, but I see no spren waiting to bond with him. And he calls Nightblood a Shardblade, which is a half truth at best. So, I'm not convinced the Skybreakers are active. Do you have a source for anything definitive on this? I would appreciate it. [Edit] Actually, @kaladamSB, I was wrong about the Skybreakers not being active. I had overlooked one quote: Mraize tells Shallan that 'her brother sought out the Skybreakers'. This seems indeed almost compelling evidence. Why should Mraize know about the one order still in existence yet be wrong about its identity? I'm currently in the process of refining this theory, and integrating this fact among others. So, a late thanks!

I'm not sure they are incompatible. I haven't seen that actual WoB, but wasn't it supposed to be an unusual love triangle? I could just picture those two becoming and staying friends while liking the same woman, each willing to pull back should she choose the other... or even pulling back because of a conviction that the other is better for her. In that case, my money would be on Kaladin leaving her to Adolin. The groundworks are already laid that way, and I for one would really enjoy watching this play out. One thing I love about Brandons's books is that they don't always contain the maximum of intrigue and improper entanglement that a certain setting might provide... Mistborn Era 1 and 2 Spoilers In both cases I hoped: Please, don't let this go the dirty way - and my wishes were fulfilled. Cheers!!

And once again, I find myself reading a post of yours and emphatically nodding the whole time On both accounts: I loved to watch Kaladin's and Adolin's mutual trust deep down even while superficially destesting one another; I loved seeing them begin to drop those barriers and I want to see that awesome brotherhood / friendship you describe in the future. And about any love interest for Kaladin: I imagine he would send the girl away because being with him is too dangerous. Harry Potter / Ginny style.

You're right about the Stonewards, thanks for the reminder. I had just searched through WoR and had forgotten the Recreance vision happened in WoK. So it's not them, but the only reason for that choice was the name anyway. I edited my theory. So let's say it's another order. Dustbringers e.g. could have a special affinity to stones, too. But it really could be any order. Concerning the Shin's unique features, I still believe that the time has been long enough for complete assimilation. Imagine a mixed group of Europeans, Native Americans and Africans having mingled with the Japanese people 1000 BC, or even with Australian Aborigines. I doubt you would be able to make out their traces today. Regarding the problem being more complex: I think it's the other way round. There had to be something like this hiding in broad daylight. If there really was one faithful order, where are they? Why don't we see anything of their doings? It's hard to imagine them so passive, and I cannot recognize them in any of the secret societies we know about. Not even in conversations among conspirators where they discuss possible political players can I find any hint that anyone knows where that KR order is and what they are up to. The more I think about this, the more certain I become. As for the spirits they talk to, I don't know. Their own spren weren't betrayed, so I think there's a possibility. But there may still be many powers on Roshar we know nothing about. Of course, in the end, it all turns out as RAFO...

I've updated my theory and fleshed it out some. I'm not sure what is the usual way: edit the OP or add one at the end? I've decided on the first option. The original, as it stood on July 15th, is at the end of this post. So, here is Version 2, augmented with everything you guys contributed: The One Faithful Order hides as (part of?) the Shin Stone Shamanate (Page numbers in quotes are from kindle version and without guaranty. I think I have seen page numbers differ on different hardware, although they are independent on current kindle text size.) We know from the in-world book ‘Words of Radiance’ that one order didn’t betray their oaths during the Recreance: So this order still has to be there somewhere. Why do I think they are either identical with or part of the Stone Shamanate, the Shin leadership? For starters, here are again the two most important quotes in full length. I’ll repeat small parts of them where needed, without repeating the source each time. So, the reasons for this theory: 1. A Curious Wording The wording almost sounds like the second sentence is a shortened version of “We are all that remains of them.” This may not seem much to go by, but we know Brandon doesn’t do such things by accident. 2. Szeth knows where Urithiru lies The home of the Knights Radiant was Urithiru. I would expect the one remaining order to have at least a tradition of where it lies, no matter where they are now. But who does? Everyone, it seems, is searching for it frantically: Jasnah Kholin, the Ghostbloods, the Sons of Honor. Szeth, the lowly Shin, knows exactly where it is: 3. Nalan has deadly business with the Shin leaders I think most of us agree that Nalan is on a KR killing spree. So what is this about sending Szeth to the Shin leaders to bring judgment? Has he changed his agenda? Or is killing the Shamanate merely a logical step towards his happy KR-less world? 4. Minor oddities about the Shin None of the following is very compelling, yet they are interesting facts that I think support rather than contradict the theory. The Shin revere Stormlight. (They also revere stones, but I have no answer as to why they do that, at least none that has any relevance for this theory. Some good suggestions have been made in this thread http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55011-odium-is-invested-in-the-very-stone/.) Anyway, their reverence for Stormlight could very well be connected to their leaders’ being KRs. They have the Honorblades. Strange distinction this, for such a backwater people. So, which order is it? After playing with ideas of Stonewardens, Lightweavers, Dustbringers and Truthwatchers I have (almost to my own disappointment) come back to the most obvious choice: I think it really is the Skybreakers after all. Most compelling for this I find Mraize’s words to Shallan: So Mraize knows one order is still active and can be ‘sought out’. I don’t see why he should be wrong about their identity. At first I thought such a discovery would kill my theory, because we see Nalan doing his thing with no connection whatsoever to the Shin. But looking more closely at Nalan and his dealings with Szeth, I have come to the conclusion that Nalan has withdrawn his patronage from the existing Skybreaker order. It’s not so big a leap when reading about how reluctant he was to take them on in the first place: Instead, he’s planning his own, new version of them. An order of ‘Skybreakers’ who are not Knights Radiant. He cannot command spren, and no spren is waiting to bond with Szeth when Nalan recruits him. In sending Szeth to bring judgment to the Shamanate, he plans to kill his own former order. Only so can the world be KR-free. And the whole thing makes even more sense now: He’s unlikely to find any legal grounds on which to hang the Shamans, they are pretty ‘legally minded’ themselves. So he needs a tool. Nightblood is perfect, because it can do what Nalan himself cannot: kill without legal conviction. A few more things that fit: Szeth recognizes Nalan from the ‘crescent’ in his face. I couldn’t find this mark on either his face in the chapter headings or the charcoal drawing in Elhokar’s palace – though in both cases that might be due to poor resolution on kindle. How about the printed version? If it’s not just a resolution problem, then this detail about his face isn’t widely known, and indeed, no one else seems to have recognized Nalan. Yet Szeth does. Do the Shin have a better memory of the physical attributes of the Skybreaker patron than the rest of the world? Why would they? Though Nalan seems to refer primarily to Szeth as a person when he says ‘You worship order’ that conversation still leaves the impression that in a lesser degree this is true of the whole Shin people. Skybreaker influence on their ethics and beliefs? The harsh punishment of a Truthless: typical Skybreaker? Anyway, that whole Truthless business: the following is supposition on my part, not facts gathered from the text. But it looks to me like the Stone Shamans (just like Nalan) are convinced that a resurrection of the old KR orders will bring back the Voidbringers and is therefore to be prevented at all costs. The Spirits of the stones have promised them the Voidbringers are gone, but either those spirits themselves named this condition or the Shamans don’t entirely believe them. So anyone showing symptoms of a bonding (which I think happened to Szeth and was duly reported by him as their law proscribes) is commanded to a life of murder, which will kill their spren by constantly going against life before death. To cover up any traces of true spren-induced surgebinding (while that lasts) they are given an Honorblade, with the positive side effect of making them more efficient killers. They may not kill themselves, because if they were too quick about that, acting before the spren has become mindless, that same willing-to-bond spren might choose another subject. Better make sure to be rid of such a spren by having the knight survive it. Last topic: what do they look like? I take back what I originally said about them having been assimilated with the Shin through ‘natural means’. That doesn’t make sense, because it would only work if older members of the order died and new ones were born. However, spren looking for new candidates would have no reason to limit themselves to descendants of the order. We haven’t yet exactly seen a Knight Radiant gene. Maybe the original members are still alive, and no new ones are chosen. (It has been theorized that a full bonding could grant immortality; I believe there’s even a WoB.) Maybe new members chosen anywhere are led by their spren to join in Shinovar. Who said the Stone Shamans need to be born Shin? In case it is still the original members (which I think more likely), I can almost see them before me, ancient and hidden from most eyes, like the first generation of kandra on their balconies. Original Version:

Just thought I should add the one that's behind my signature, because I simply love it: "You hugged Wit!"

@Tharatariel10: It's one of the sentences I read about 20 times (together with their close context) every time I come across them. That it was the first one I thought about might be due to my having followed the movie poster/trailer thread, where it is used several times in awesome ways. Another one is that one @dvoraen posted ('Dalinar ran the entire way'). And then there's the one in WoK: 'The bridgemen. The bridgeman were fighting.' (Dalinar's thoughts after having broken through the Parshendi on the Tower.) Or later, back in Sadeas' camp: "The Blade. ... For the Bridgemen." The two you mentioned are awesome too. It always takes me several minutes to get past those sentences...

I second that!

Not at all !!! Trust me, I know the feeling of being too late here. Having discovered Brandon's books within the last year, having passively read this forum for months before joining, and now wondering all the time whether the things I think about have been discussed at full length sometime years before I turned up... it can be frustrating. Two positive notes: We're not the only ones. Almost every day (I think) new people join, and face the same problem. On the whole, this community is very welcoming. One thing that convinced me to join was the friendly atmosphere. Of course, there are always exceptions, but they are exactly that: exceptions. My experience is that there is no need to be timid for lack of being 'up-to-date' about what was posted during the last two years. Forget about being a rookie, just post!

I'm going to shock you : no we don't all agree. For the long version, just check out this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/54885-is-it-just-me-or-do-you-really-dont-like-navani/ One of my focuses on my current reread is my strange reaction to Navani: one part of me sees her as she is described, another part of me just regards her as a stone-cold woman - in defiance of the facts. I haven't yet reached a definitive decision; I have a few ideas but will hold back until I'm through. What I can say already is that her relationship to Dalinar is part of what makes me dislike her. Navani as an independent person might work for me - Navani as Dalinar's love interest just - doesn't. It is certainly always interesting to watch our different reactions....

I gather from this that we all owe you thanks - have an upvote!

@maxal @Tharatariel10: I'm with both of you in thinking - and hoping - that Shaladin will never happen. But I'm rooting for Shadolin. I'm not exactly a fan of Shallan, it took me two entire readings to even start to like her just a little. But I wouldn't say she is deceiving in nature, and I can absolutely see her with Adolin if both get over a few issues. For most of her life, she lied primarily to herself because she just couldn't live with the truth of her actions. Actions which we know were (though terrible when taken out of context) once in self-defense and once in defense of another. The third, or rather first time - that garden scene - we don't know enough about yet. She definitely takes to and delights in Illumination - the 'deceiving surge'. But her motives are not those of a classic con artist - just compare her to Tyn. She's not in it for personal gain and not even for the satisfaction of having been able to take someone in. She wants to save humanity, and she takes pride in a job well done, like an actor who played his part in a movie well. (This btw is something she has in common with Kaladin, but that's neither here nor there.) She also enjoys the self-exploration: how much of Veil is an act, how much is really her? I think that even in her Illumination, while using it for practical purposes, she also seeks for truth. My guess: when Shallan reveals more of herself to Adolin, that may lead to a few bumps in their relationship. But they might be able to work it out, and be good for each other: Adolin grounding Shallan in reality, Shallan helping Adolin out when he's a little too 'mentally direct'. (I loved that phrase!!)

Maybe they already had an inkling that the desolation was near. After all, Gavilar already had his visions. That would make Gavliar's party about the center of the universe on that day: the most powerful king of eastern Roshar, who was about to try bringing the voidbringers back in order to bring the heralds back (!), was hosting said voidbringers (without knowing it) in order to sign a treaty with them. Witnessing the assassinantion (that they probably at least condoned) would be an added bonus. Guess they had nowhere better to be...

Wasn't entirely serious - just amused about that post. But thanks anyway for the reassurance!

What? When? How? By whom? What did I miss? (Groooaaaaan, o no pleeeeaaaase noooooooo !!!)

Hard to choose, and on each reading something else sticks out. But one certainly up front with me is: 'Honor is dead. But I'll see what I can do.'

Thanks, that explains a lot !! Btw, the preview still shows them as "Spoiler" (tried that)