Erklitt

Yes, but usual plate gets its stormlight from its gemstones, so as far as I can see, that matches: shardplate always needs stormlight, either you provide infused gems or you provide an infused Radiant. Thanks, you're right. I only had one quote in mind where it said about Dalinar that the 'gauntlet wouldn't work properly now' (roughly quoted from memory) but with Eshonai the text clearly states it was too heavy.

There is some level of mental command: However, other people can help with the process (e.g. Kaladin in WoR on the dueling ground - iirc there's even some mention of 'straps' there). The way I imagine it, mental commands are the usual way for fully functioning shardplate, while there is a mechanical backup for locked plate. But mostly, I agree: I don't think they could make their plate do what the Radiants did. Like with the blades: all can summon the blades they have bonded, but only Syl and Pattern can change form and size according to current needs. First part: agreed. Second part: could be, but to me that doesn't sound like they give any command, conscious or unconscious, but rather like the usual behavior of current-day shardplate. I think they are stuck on this part-transparency once the visor is closed, just like the blades are stuck to a definite form. What I wonder about every time I read the scene is Kaladin's use of a helm as a gauntlet / shield during the duel. He wears no other plate to support it, while Dalinar has to let go of his gauntlet during the battle of the Tower after the connection to the rest of the plate is lost. I have two theories but can't decide which is the more likely: 1) Dalinar's gauntlet might still have worked as a shield in this way but didn't fully function anymore (giving him strength and feeling in his fingers), something Kaladin never needed or expected from that helm-gauntlet, but Dalinar rather went without a gauntlet than be encumbered in this way 2) Kaladin could only wield it like he did because of his enhanced strength courtesy of the stormlight. Maybe something of both? Any other ideas?

I agree there certainly is something about plate. Some more reasons: Originally, shardplate radiated light. Originally, the helms could be commanded (again, mentally) to disintegrate / become completely transparent / invisible, as evidenced by the first of Dalinar's visions that's described in the book (the one with the midnight essence creatures) IIRC, Brandon was once asked whether the windspren dancing around Kaladin on his first flight across the plain had anything to do with 'proto-plate', and the answer was something like 'You are a very wise man'. So, in a sense the plate also is 'dead' now. It seems clear that Syl doesn't react to 'dead plate' like she reacts to 'dead blades'. Yet I think that in a lesser sense, there still might be something reprehensible even about current-day plate. Kaladin might have felt that instinctively. In his rationalization, he concentrated on the blade as the tool that had killed his friends. But one big reason for that shardbearer to be so unstoppable was his plate. Anyway, I don't think Kaladin was concerned about dahns or lighteyed children when he refused the entire set. He just hated the whole concept of a shardbearer after what had happened. And I'm really curious to find out more about the origins and development of shardplate!!

Though I think your theory unlikely, I would love it to be true. My first thought was: if he is, then probably he's an Edgedancer or Truthwatcher because of the healing. But then I realized that couldn't be it, because in that case he would probably very rarely lose patients. After all he always has a cup full of infused spheres in the surgery. His family never really lack food, though they make do with cheap fare. Lirin claims people never stopped giving them gifts, but what if that's not the whole truth? Maybe he can soulcast at a pinch? However, I think I recall that both Ivory and Pattern hint at a past betrayal of their particular spren community, which would mean neither Lightweavers nor Elsecallers where that one faithful order. But I'll certainly keep this theory in the back of my mind.

As everyone responding to my post seems to have skipped over, I followed the possibility of 'maybe many deaths' with 'maybe something completely different'. So no, I'm not projecting the killing into my theories, I'm just sure it must have been something really traumatic and connected with a lot of guilt. You may be right that even the first bonding happened after the event, the point of Pattern needing a crack in the soul to come in is a good one. So possibly the traumatic event wasn't connected to Pattern's powers. However we do know that a (newly forged? newly deepened?) bond was the result of it, and there was terrible guilt involved (at least from her subjective point of view), rather than Shallan just being an innocent victim, as your ghostblood theory seems to suggest.. I repeat the quote about her shardblade: This actually implies that she feels more guilty about it then the murder of both her parents! I agree to your theory that she was pretty far along with her lightweaving as a small child. And the hints of a mysterious garden scene certainly are suggestive. As for your last paragraph: the text makes it clear at several times that the abilities are dependent on level. The best example is Kaladin in an early stage (but after the first oath) when he tries to walk on a wall but fails.

In Alethkar, the specialization of highprinces to certain jobs is a sign of unity. Instead of every highprince being in charge of everything for his own princedom, they provide specialized services for each other, binding them more strongly together. With the Horneaters I feel it's more about each family's being self-sufficient: the first two sons are farmers, the third a craftsman (like Rock as a cook), the forth a warrior. Like: a family cannot possibly do without farmers, a craftsman comes in handy, and if there are enough sons, it's not a bad idea to have a warrior too. About the Shin, I guess we lack sufficient information to go deeper than very superficial speculation. On first view, this just looks like different cultures to me. Yet I find your idea interesting: on a grander scale, it is conceivable that different cultures and ethics fulfilled certain roles in a greater whole. As you say, the Alethi job as warriors for all of Roshar seems to have been a given back in radiant times. Maybe the Horneaters' and Shin concentration on farmers was another side to the same coin? Definitely worth keeping in mind while reading the sequels. Maybe we'll witness different nations come into their own, providing the services they are best fitted for. I like this concept.

I believe that as a young child, already bonded to Pattern (to an extent), she (probably inadvertently) made something terrible happen. Maybe many deaths, maybe something completely different. Whatever it was, I think there were two results: 1) Her mother wanted to kill her because she thought her too dangerous to be allowed to live 2) In the process, she uttered a truth that put her far enough along her radiant development to enable Pattern to become a shardblade for her. Thus, he became This must have happened before she killed her mother because when she did, Pattern was already available to her.

Thanks for the reference!

No, I think your reading is the better one, that way to read it just didn't occur to me. And I like it better this way... because it means Renarin might actually end up as king. Worse things could happen in SA Good points. The Rattles usually being about the future is a problem with my interpretation that occurred to me too after writing that post. The description just seemed to fit so well with what I think happened on that visit that I didn't think long enough about it... As for Shallan and Kaladin in the chasms, I had put down Shallan's positive attitude to her personality rather than to her being a lightweaver. Or are you thinking of something else? It's certainly an interesting idea, but so far I wouldn't see 'spiritual sustenance' as a lightweaver attribute. However, Shallan's 'transforming powers' as evidenced by Bluth etc. could be something along those lines, a slightly different aspect yet a valuable weapon in that war. As for this war being 'body, mind and soul' and the nature of the Unmade, I feel pretty certain you're right. Thanks for this vivid description!

Nice idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There was the 'small' truth she gave before her first entry into Shadesmar, her answer to Pattern's question: "What are you?": "I am terrified". It might be debatable whether this can be counted as one of the five steps, maybe it was just something needed for her to start the way back from her long phase of 'self-lies'. Yet I believe there is a WoB that Shallan is farther along her vows than Kaladin is, so I guess this counts. (Either that, or there was a pre-mother's-death one we yet know nothing about.)

Sounds good! I think it would probably have to be the title of highprince, not the kingship, since Elhokar uses a sword instead of a tower in his banner. And I'm not sure about the spear being Bridge Four, that would look like Renarin not only takes up a title but also leadership of the Windrunners - which is unlikely for a Truthwatcher. Yet I think you probably have it right, and the spear will become clear when the time comes. (If the spear isn't Bridge Four, it could of course also refer to Adolin, but I think Renarin is the more likely candidate.) Funny you revive this thread just now. I have a (less spectacular) idea. I haven't read this whole thread and so cannot be sure that hasn't been suggested before, but at least google gave no relevant results: Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it! Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher? Any reason why she couldn't be one of the Unmade? Or the other way round: any proof Dai-Gonarthis / The Black Fisher is one of the Unmade (other than the dashed name)?

Interesting idea, @forgedpig, but I tend to agree with @thegatorgirl00. There may be something even deeper in her past then both killings of her parents (though it's hard to imagine what that might be). She calls the shardblade 'the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act'. (TWoK chapter 45: 'Shadesmar') How can the shardblade be the 'fruit' of killing her mother? She had to have it already in order to do it. [Edit] And after all, there has to be a reason why her mother wanted to kill her. [Edit end] But I agree that finding out Kaladin killed Helaran will lead to some repercussions.

I think you still misunderstand me (which is fine). I'm not trying to like Navani. I try to analyze my perception where it seems to be at odds with 'written facts'. It's a question of understanding writing techniques more than anything else. If I end up disliking her again, that's fine by me, and I've already found hints of that happening in the second Navani scene of the book, as I mentioned. I develop string biases, too. Once a character has my loyalty, they'd have a hard time pushing me away by suddenly becoming jerks. (Kaladin made a good effort during his Syl - free time, but didn't succeed even in his darkest moments.) But usually I know why I like or dislike a character, and I know exactly what kind of person is fit to become my hero (Dalinar...). Those I dislike usually have some trait that I dislike in some real person. Navani was (and still is) an enigma. By the way, do you have a link to that flashback chapter? I know the one where Dalinar recruits that enemy archer, and Kaladin's arrival at Hearthsone, but hadn't heard of this one and can't find it online.

Both seem highly desirable, yet a big helping of either will mean you should start training really hard! Kaladin is like Navani.

Granted, but they are breath's in the Earthian sense, not the Nalthian. They will be your last 1000. I wish for access to theoryland, instead of this stupid error 403.

Just in case this refers to me: if you felt 'judged' by my post, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention, and that's not what I meant. I guess you considered my challenge to try the same experiment as a kind of moral duty to Navani? Not at all. I totally agree that no one needs to like every character. I wouldn't even say there's any need 'to be fair to those we dislike' as you posted earlier. I'm just very interested in how I'm influenced by the way a character is described. And Navani has puzzled me a great deal, because she always gave me this 'cold vibe' in spite of all those times she proved herself anything but. Realizing how easily and persistently Dalinar's biased comments had taken me in against her was quite an interesting discovery, one that I think might be just as interesting to others. But not a moral duty, not in a light breeze or a highstorm! By the way, I've come over the next Navani scene in my current reread, and I have to admit, even when I ignore Dalinar's comments, some of the old dislike begins to seep in again. I'll keep my mind open... and in case of further insights I'll keep you posted

Any attempt at seeing any page from theoryland ends in an error 403 message for me. I've already tried the usual fixes. I understand the shard's admins cannot do anything about it (a fellow sharder brought up this problem some months ago), however maybe someone here has an email address of a theoryland admin? Sorry about asking this sort of question, but you're my only hope: there's no chance for me to go via contact forms or finding some address on an impressum page, because I simply cannot access anything on that site at all, and google doesn't yield anything either.

I don't think the problem is access from Germany. I've actually read several threads from theoryland, only not from my own computer. Next time I get access to that other computer, I'll try contacting the admins there. Maybe they have an idea. (I've googled error 403 in the meantime and the 'usual fixes' haven't brought up anything, so I'm not sure what differences I could be searching for on that machine.) If I find out anything, I'll let you know!

@Alfa: has your problem ever been solved? Because I have it now... tried with Internet Explorer and Firefox. Don't have experience with 'usual fixes' to 403 errors, but would appreciate help!

I made an experiment: I read Navani's first scene again: the one where, after her return to the warcamps, she attends the feast and meets Dalinar. And I made a conscious effort to get away from Dalinar's perception, taking his POV comments with a pinch of salt, instead keeping in mind every good thing I have learned about Navani since getting my first (bad) impression of her on my first read. The change is striking: I suddenly see a sympathetic woman with a keen sense of humor. Dalinar's reaction to her is downright hilarious. Yes, she's forward, but I caught myself liking her for it! She's just as blunt as Dalinar... so: maybe even a good fit?! Everyone in the 'I don't like Navani' faction (which I think I may have just left - I'll reserve final judgment until after an entire reread): try it sometime! Gosh, that's humbling. Am I really so easily prejudiced that a first yet possibly false impression can survive three entire reads??? And now I can only hope that no one here feels betrayed...

Maybe I'm too influenced by the Nightwatcher game we play here, were most people try to match the bane to the boon. However, even before I discovered that game, I always supposed Dalinar probably asked the Nightwatcher to take away his pain at the loss of his wife and got more than he bargained for. [Edit] Found where I got that idea:

that new Arcanum Unbound reading!! Granted - the above line was copied and pasted from your post, as requested. Your bane is to be willfully misunderstood by everyone every time you make the slightest typo. I wish I could keep my living room cool without having to shut out the light.

This is the site I found: http://superuser.com/questions/439517/disable-spell-checking-in-ie-10-11-on-windows-7-8-8-1 and what it looked like on my system (except for German menus of course).

Ah yes of course... FOUND IT! It's in the Add Ons! Again: THANKS EVERYONE! This community is just great!