Lightspine

Ash dropped us this tidbit in today's chapter: This immediately reminded me of Nin's exchange with Szeth at the end of Words of Radiance: Ash says that the Shin began to worship her, but Szeth explicitly says they worship "The sun and the stars. Not men." Now, some people might interpret Nin's conversation as implying that Szeth is part of some splinter religion that worships the Heralds—this is what I thought on my first read-through—but I don't think this is the case. Szeth must have been an extremely devout, or else he would never have obeyed his Oathstone with such dedication. He was also probably a religious leader, perhaps one of the Stone Shamans themselves. In his POV chapters, he constantly references his beliefs about stone, and refers to the Sun as the god of gods. Nin isn't saying that Szeth worships the Heralds. Instead, he explicitly says "You, Szeth, worship order, do you not? You follow the laws of your society to perfection." This is not a truth about Szeth's religion. It is an observation made by a megalomaniac Herald who sees Szeth's devotion to law and calls it a religion because he thinks himself to be some sort of God of Law. So, what's up with Ash's worship? And with those prophecies about a new desolation, which make it strange that Szeth's warnings were ignored? The key here is Ash's statement that "I eventually left them behind." The current religion of Stone Shamanism is not at all the religion she was involved with. For all we know, it's been four thousand years since they worshipped Ash. Or maybe just a couple hundred. It would be great if she could tell us when things happened, but no such luck. Anyway, the tenants behind Stone Shamanism has lead to a lot of theorizing about it being an ancient religion from before the Desolations. Oaths and Truth are very important to them, which smells of Honor. Ash has Shin eyes, so they might be the first Human ethnic group to come to Roshar. Their refusal to walk on stone is highly theorized to be a remnant from the first agreement of humankind to not expand beyond Shinovar. Worship of the spren of the stones is also quite likely tied to the Sibling, especially since they see Urithiru as holy. This idea is also supported by their language: In addition, there are some parallels between the Shin and Horneater worship of gods of stone and mountains. If we follow these threads, it would seem that some Shin traditions might be ancient, tying as far back as to the original culture of the Dawnsingers. And I think this is precisely why they wanted to kill Ash. The Shin follow the precepts given to them by the Dawnsingers long ago. They follow Honor and Cultivation. They follow the gods referenced in the Eila Stele: "spren, stone, and wind," but stone in particular because it was the Sibling who raised the Misted Mountains and separated Shinovar from the rest of the continent. (Roshar doesn't have plate tectonics. Where else could mountains come from? The continent moves from highstorm weathering and crem deposition, so the land to the west is newer than the land to the east. These mountains are new. The Sibling is their jail-keeper, warden, and God) They are still bound by their agreement to never leave Shinovar. In the times of the Silver Kingdoms, each Kingdom had a special role. Alethela trained soldiers and prepared for war. Shin Kak Nish may have been the opposite; a place of peace and neutrality, remembering the original contract between the Dawnsingers and Humanity. Ash is a twice a traitor. She walks on stone and helps those who conquered Roshar. Then, she betrays the Oathpact and leaves Taln to suffer alone. Oaths and honesty are important to Stone Shamanism. I don't see them taking this well. But why switch to worshipping her? Pay attention to phrasing: One interpretation of this is that the Shin worshipped Ash because of their prophecies. Her betrayal allowed for the current situation, giving a chance for the Singers to return and take back their rightful land. Presently, the Shin are neutral. They do not send forces against the Singers or the Coalition. They sit back and let the Stonewalkers receive their punishment. But they are not on the side of Odium. If this is their motive, it might explain a lot. So yeah, that's my theory. TL;DR: As others have theorized, Stone Shamanism is a leftover from Humankind's first contract with the Singers. Because of this, they remain neutral in the current Desolation and are maybe sort of pleased that it is happening. This could explain why they wanted to murder Ash initially, but then worshipped her after their prophecies surfaced. Edit: I began this intending it as a post about Szeth, forgot that I began it in Character Discussion when I changed the topic a bit. Sorry mods! Please move this to a different thread if you feel it doesn't belong.

Because of the connection to cymatics and the Dawncities, I've always thought that this power must have been one of the abilities of the "Dawnsingers." Especially since this is related to sound. But I've never actually thought about what those 10 craters (or domes) might be!

Gemstones physically cannot be created by Soulcasting. That's probably one of the reasons they're used as currency.

Yeah there's definitely a lot that we don't know. That's a good point. I looked up the phrasing of those WoBs about Nightblood, and this one seems to be the closest thing to Sanderson calling it the most invested object: He says "things" here and is also including the Shards in this scale so the Unmade are probably being considered when he said this. So it's very possible that Nightblood is more invested than them. On the other hand, he says "one of" so it's not conclusive. However, there could be another reason that Nighblood doesn't distort spacetime; the aluminum. Aluminum blocks the effects of investure; what if it contains the spacetime distortion as well? It's certainly a possibility. Maybe Nightblood creates time dilation when it is unsheathed.

I believe this WoB might explain some of it: The time dilation might just be from the fact that there are 3 Unmade (Ahsertmarn, Sja-anat, and Yelig-nar) residing in the Kholinar palace. That's a truckload of investure if I've ever seen it. It's possible that only Ashertmarn is actually dilating time though, since their massive form is what the group see in Shadesmar. Anyway, Sanderson seems to be saying that the investure could cause time dilation in either the Spiritual or Cognitive Realms rather than the Physical. Cognitive Realm time dilation would completely explain why the occupants of the palace experienced less time mentally. But I don't know about the weird clash between the physical aging and the lack of food. We've seen in other cases such as (Spoilers for TFE) that your spiritweb "knows" your true age. Personally, I think the time dilation must be exclusively in the Cognitive because the Spiritual Realm is already kind of devoid of time so time dilation there... doesn't make sense? Therefore, maybe the aging is from spiritual aging? But then what about Gavinor? Uh, I thought the WoB might help clear things up but nevermind, everything still seems messy to me.

Good point! For some reason I was only thinking of spanreeds and heating/cooling, since those are more commonly seen. I guess I was both underthinking and overthinking at the same time :P. Edit: New reply just as I posted this one lol. Adding as an edit so I don't double-post That sounds like a good analogy! Stormlight is certainly easier to acquire. What this makes me wonder the most, however, is how the amount of investure in a breath compares to stormlight.

I was considering this too. This chapter certainly puts her on the radar! I'm a little confused by Mraize right now, but maybe I'm overthinking things. Something certainly isn't completely adding together about the stormlight thing. But first! A tiny theory about how he might get the stuff off world. My immediate idea was "just wrap it in aluminum." Gavilar mentioned a box. An aluminum box? It sounds like it could work, right? The only issue I can think of for this idea is that it's too easy. Like, anybody with a knowledge of realmatics would probably be able to think of it. It would be hard for the Ghostbloods to monopolize a technique that's so simple. Anyway, I agree with some of @Karger's questioning earlier. Why stormlight? Mraize says that he would have a monopoly over the trade of investure, but we already know of a type of investure that is bought, sold, and moved between worlds. Vivenna and Wit have both brought Breath to Roshar, and Vasher has too (since he dies without his Divine Breath), though we haven't seen him use them. And Breaths are already for sale in Hallendren. Now, this could easily explain why Mraize doesn't want to deal in Breaths—there's already a somewhat open market in them, one which the Ghostbloods wouldn't be able to have a strangle-hold on. The real question here should be why the Ghostbloods think that their stormlight market can outcompete the one for Breaths. The easiest explanation would be that stormlight can be applied in a manner that Breaths can't be. This is objectively true, and I've seen plenty of people here talking about exporting fabrials offworld. I agree that any method which can export stormlight should be able to export fabrials. However, I don't think this is sufficient. First of all, we see the Ire using some fabrial-like device powered with the Dor in Secret History, so stormlight might not be unique in this department. But it's still much more portable than the Dor, so perhaps there's still a market there. The biggest flaw in this isn't another form of investure, but just plain old electricity. Scadrial has entered its industrial phase, and is just a few years away from many devices which could render fabrials obsolete. Why buy a magical contraption which runs on an exotic energy source that must be brought from another planet when you can get an electrical appliance that does the same thing? Once a power station is built on your planet, it should supply energy much more cheaply than an interplanetary trade route. If I were looking to turn a massive profit, I would be smuggling appliances out of Scadrial. That said, perhaps Mraize doesn't know the potential electricity has. It would be hilarious to see him succeed only to be crushed in a decade by Scadrian entrepreneurs. This makes me think there could be some use for stormlight or voidlight which is yet unseen. Maybe the Ghostbloods have a contract with some more nefarious group or entity who want to use the stormlight in their plans. Or I'm maybe I'm overthinking this.

I typically don't do this kind of theory but it's just too tempting. *Puts tinfoil hat on* "Unusually light hair" you say? Must be a WORLDHOPPER. And she's tall too, that must mean she's Terris. It's not like the Alethi are tall or anything.... *Removes tinfoil hat* Okay that's enough crackpot theorizing for me. This chapter made me feel like I was getting stabbed and tickled at the same time. Edit: I kept reading and dragged myself further into crackpot territory. Check out this quote Does this mean Hem's skin tone is distinct? Someone stop me before I actually start believing she's a Terriswoman.

I wish I could unread this because now I'm very scared of the possibility. Poor Kal, that would be one rough journey to the 4th ideal. I could definitely imagine Lezian becoming an important antagonist this book, kind of taking the place of Amaram or Sadeas (although we already know the Ghostbloods and SoH are also kind of taking those spots)

That's a possibility, but looking at the rest of the passage: As I've said before, I think that "He killed Lezian, the Pursuer" is being supplied as an explanation to Venli for why Leshwi fears she "might not have a chance to face him again." Lezian is going to take revenge, and either Leshwi thinks this means Kaladin is as good as dead, or there is some sort of system where Leshwi has to defer to Lezian and let him hunt Kaladin without her interference. Anyway I'm mostly replying here to shamelessly direct you towards my new theory:

I think it's best to think of what the secretspren do as something very similar to Allomantic Bronze. (Seeking) If you're good with Bronze, you can tell the difference between different types of kinetic investure. It's not merely a question of whether or not the Fused's use of surges is "quiet" or not if the secretspren can be trained to recognized their signature. They don't have to be indiscriminate in choosing which instances of surgebinding or fabrials to report. That's not to say that I don't think it's possible for the Fused to be more quiet. I just think we should also consider this avenue; that the secretspren can detect both, but that there is enough of a difference in signature (even when Venli uses voidlight) to distinguish them.

This is a bit of a weird theory, but we've seen two instances now which seem like they might be setting up an Honorspren being able to aid in battle against a Fused. First is this exchange with Syl in Chapter 5: And next is what Leshwi says in today's Chapter 11: Leshwi's comment here is very weird. It shouldn't even be necessary to state that Syl was there—why wouldn't a spren be around their Radiant, especially one of the 3rd ideal who can summon a sprenblade? Even more mysterious is the statement that Syl "did not appear to me." Leshwi does not consider Syl participating in the battle as a sprenblade to be an "appearance." She likely means that Syl did not make her spren form visible to Leshwi. In isolation, it might seem like Leshwi wants to have a conversation with Syl or something of that sort. I think that's a solid idea, but Syl's comment in Chapter 5 makes me wonder if Leshwi was expecting Syl to take part in the combat in some other way. Let's take a look at what Syl does do during the battle: (Note: I bolded sections of text here for easy comparison between quotes but also for details that I think are important and will try to explain later) Reminds me of this moment from Words of Radiance (although this instance isn't Syl): Now have a look at this awesome scene from Oathbringer Chapter 31: There are a multitude, maybe dozens, of other scenes where windspren follow Kaladin around but these two are the most notable, largely because the windspren seem to be helping Kal rather than just following him. A small point of contention here is whether or not the windspren are physically doing anything. In the last quote, they are described as "sweeping to Kaladin's sides and parting the winds around him," which sounds an awful lot like they are taking a direct involvement. But if you want to argue they're more there as symbols or indicators of Kaladin's use of Adhesion, I can totally see why. Anyway, adding all these quotes together we see: Syl leading Kaladin's way against Leshwi just like the windspren do in his fight against Szeth. Windspren parting the winds, with Kaladin at the head of their formation. In the RoW Chapter 11 quote, Kal notes that "the roaring air seemed to fade" when Syl is taking point. I think the windspren could be physically blocking some of the wind, and thus reducing air resistance, here. So, this might be a bit of a leap but could Syl potentially "take point" and lead a group of windspren? If she does this and chases Leshwi down, she could hinder her maneuverability by buffeting her with wind. I see a lot of other possible conclusions but that's the one that springs out at me. I would be really excited to see it happen!

Leshwi doesn’t think she’ll get to fight Kaladin again, why is that? She can’t already know about his removal from the field. I think that the phrasing here—with Leshwi replying to Venli’s attunement of Curiosity—is meant to imply that Lezian is the reason Leshwi thinks she won’t be able to fight Kaladin. Lezian is a creature of pride, and probably wants vengeance. I bet he’ll be seeking Kaladin out, and he doesn’t have the Heavenly One’s aversion to attacking non-combatants so Kal will be forced to fight him despite being off the battlefield. I also want to know why Leshwi is interested in Syl, and says she didn’t show herself despite the fact that she fought against a Sylblade. Leshwi wants to see he in spren form? But she doesn’t ask her to show herself? Maybe it used to be some sort of tradition for Honorspren to show themselves to the Heavenly Ones as a part of their respectful duel, one which is now lost?

While I'm not convinced that the omission of Ishar's name means that he isn't a Bondsmith that Syl is referring to, I really like the idea that Tanavast was the original Bondsmith! I think that some of the times Syl says "a Bondsmith" might refer to Ishar, and some other times to Tanavast. Connecting the Heralds to Braize, giving them immortality, locking away the Fused sounds like Tanavast. Creating/discovering the Nahel bond sounds like Ishar.

I think the phrasing was a little weird, but it seems that Pewter is necessary for all Augmenter fabrials. Like, the painrial from Oathbringer used Pewter to cause pain and probably Tin (Pewter's counterpart) to suppress the pain of the wearer. Zinc and Brass control expression strength while Pewter determines what attribute is expressed. At least, that's my interpretation. Edit: @The_Truthwatcher seems to have the same idea and beat me to it by a minute.

So, something interesting popped out to me here about the fabrials. While this is mostly as we expected, one part of it is not—the unresponsiveness. At least, I had not expected it because the Oathgate spren we see in Oathbringer are very responsive. There are two things this unresponsiveness brings to mind: The Sibling, who is currently "asleep" Syl after she lost her first Radiant This brings up an interesting possibility. What if the unresponsiveness of the Soulcaster spren isn't a necessary part of their function? Perhaps more powerful fabrials, like the Oathgates and the one at the heart of Urithiru actually require that their spren are "awake," and the "sleeping" state of the Soulcaster spren is voluntary. Syl cannot be the only spren who went asleep after losing their Radiant. How does spren society handle these spren? Maybe these spren decide to "volunteer" to serve as fabrials. This could explain why the ancient Radiants didn't consider them unethical. (or at least, they used the Progression fabrial. That said, it's also possible that they did consider it unethical but the life-saving potential of this particular fabrial outweighed that for some of the Orders). (Edit: just realized that my reputation is now "Artifabrian". How timely!)

Seems possible, but a little out of left field. However, there's a few WoB's that you need to wrangle with: These two WoBs together seem to directly contradict your theory. There's a couple of other WoBs surrounding this subject that don't seem to point either way, however: That last one is interesting because he's contradicting his statement that Odium is on Roshar. However, I think that in the 2014 WoB he really meant the Rosharan system. If you really want to, I can see the argument that the 1st WoB is some sort of misdirection and Brandon is simply saying that Odium is the 3rd one at the present, not necessarily in the "3 of 16" from the past. If you then decide that his 2010 WoB refers to the planet Roshar and not the system then that opens the door to another shard. However, I think Honor, Cultivation, and Odium being the Three is the most reasonable interpretation of this. Edit: Also, not to criticize, but I find your grouping of the orders rather curious. Why aren't Elsecallers grouped with Ingenuity? Are Stonewards there just because the Sibling is probably a stone/mountain god spren? If we sort by ideology, I would have chosen Elsecaller, Willshaper, and Lightweaver to be the 3 associated with Ingenuity. Also, I think that the magic system of fabrials is something independent of the Shards. Spren seem to be the Focus for magic on Roshar, and we know that metals have their own spiritual properties cosmere-wide (WoB). Fabrials could be a natural consequence of these things colliding, which explains why they can be fueled by both stormlight and voidlight. If they were made by a Shard, I suspect they would require that Shard's investure to run.

Fair point! Trying to uplift Moash certainly seems to destroy his security instead. Ah, my bad, I should have checked. Thanks for the correction! I too am hoping to learn more in this department.

Heliodor's Essence is sinew, and it soulcasts meat and flesh, so maybe that's why it's good for an alerter fabrial that seeks out people? I mean, people are mostly flesh. For the others though, uhhh no idea.

For some reason, brain went directly to the spheres Lirin stole from Wistiow when I read the description of Renarin's light as diamond-like. Just spent a while flipping through Way of Kings to find this. Chapter 31 Kaladin flashback: (the townfolk confront Lirin asking for Wistiow's spheres) Note: the goblet is full of diamond broams. And from today's chapter: While there's a few parallels in how the light is described in these scenes, what I find most interesting is the contrast between the cold light of Lirin and the warm light of Renarin. I think this is at least partially intentional, especially since they both take place in Hearthstone. Brandon is making a literary comparison between how Lirin and Renarin ward away Kaladin's fears. Lirin's light is the cold confidence of the surgeon. He sees the truth with brutal objectivity, and it is his voice that tells Kaladin "Move on to someone you can help, his father seemed to say. This one is dead." There's nothing wrong with this worldview, but it's not what Kaladin needs. He's been hearing these words his whole life, but he's never been able to accept things the way that Lirin does. And that is because of how cold Lirin is, bordering on dispassionate—something that the parshwoman running Hearthstone notes as well. Lirin's cool composure is a turn-off for Kaladin, who sees his philosophy as uncaring. Lirin's light shines on the people of Hearthstone and makes them look foolish. It scolds them. What Kaladin needs is warmth and comfort. Where Lirin would chastise Kaladin for failing to "let go" and move on from failure, Kaladin needs somebody to hug him and tell him that it's okay to mess up. Renarin's light shines on Moash and Kaladin and reveals their stronger selves. It uplifts them.

My idea has always been a group of singers, back when they had whatever forms called them the Dawnsingers, working together (like the stormform regals do to summon the Everstorm). This is because the Dawncities were said to have been made by the Dawnsingers, and also the Listener songs about the Shattered Plains.

She didn't have to if the poisoned wine was the last one that Ialai drank, which she didn't offer to Shallan. But this means she wasn't trying to take down Shallan with her, so I'm not sure. The purpose of the other wines is a bit unclear, but the deep blue one which Ialai drinks before proffering the Horneater White to Shallan is clearly meant to represent Ialai herself or the Sadeas line as a whole. Having poison in it could mesh with the symbolism there.

True. Amaram wasn't my initial guess because of this, and I also think it's just straight up more interesting if she's talking about something that hasn't happened yet. Also, I somehow avoided writing anything about what Ialai calls the "rarest vintage." My gut reaction was that this is the blue at the end—since it's the last of its kind—but I'm reasonably certain that it represents Ialai and thus wouldn't make a lot of sense. Ialai says that the vintage is "exotic." I think she might mean it comes from off-world, and it represents Mraize. This is because Ialai seems to be trying to tell Shallan a secret about what the Ghostbloods are rather than the Sons of Honor: I'm not sure what the point would be of having a vintage from another world though. How would Shallan even identify it?

That's a great point! I hadn't considered Restares for the orange because I thought Ialai had a high opinion of him, but he certainly fits being "weak" and "powerless" better than Dalinar. Another idea I just had is that this is applying to Amaram. He's the best example we've seen yet of somebody who wants "to maintain appearances before others" but is eventually "revealed as a fraud." Ialai could be referring to herself as the more noble person who takes up Amaram's role.

So probably the most mystery-packed section of this chapter (beyond the fabrial stuff) is Ialai's wine talk. Let's see how it can be broken down. I'm going to start off a bit backwards and look at the last one first, just because of the implications it has: Because of this quote, I think each of Ialai's wines is supposed to represent a person. In my initial read, I thought that Ialai was trying to hint at Shallan's disguise with her clear and orange wines, but now I'm not so sure. I think it's valuable to consider other possibilities. So, let's start from the beginning now with the clear: Is this supposed to represent a person who was rescued from Alethkar? It is also somebody who Ialai admires as "sweet" and reminds her of Gavilar. My first thought is Gavinor, but I don't know how he fits the "Revealing what was truly inside" part. This is a person whose secrets have already been exposed, somebody who has become transparent. Could this apply to Restares? I believe that Ialai is taking a jab at Dalinar here, largely because of the phrase "his creation will be discarded in favor of a truly strong or noble vintage." This could fit really will if the previous wine represents Gavinor, who Ialai is claiming to support. This one is clear to me: the wine is Ialai herself. Or perhaps more broadly, the Sadeas family line. In this chapter, Ialai is clearly resigned to die. She sees it coming, even telling Shallan that “I won’t get to answer. They won’t let me.” This parallels the "After today, even this bit will be gone." Uh, not quite sure if I actually uncovered anything here. I just want to present the idea that each wine might be representing somebody.