Lightspine

Oh, when did we learn about this? I'm curious, I missed whatever quote or WoB this info came from. Thanks for the info though! Um, I don't think they're bonded to the Bridgemen yet, because the Bridgemen can't see them. Kaladin could see Syl even before he swore the first oath and while she was still mostly mindless, unlike the spren here. But yes, they're almost certainly behaving like those Highspren. I'm curious as to how they're there rather than why.

Hey guys, so I noticed something really odd going on. In Chapter 37, which is from Rock's perspective, a bunch of Honorspren appear on the neighboring plateau to watch Bridge Four training. From Rock's count, there are over two dozen Honorspren there. What I find curious re-reading this chapter was that it seems impossible and contradicts what Syl claims about Honorspren later in the book. In Chapter 91, Syl tells Kaladin: The spren appearing on the Plateau do not appear to have bonded anybody, and yet they were not mindless (as far as I can tell anyway, they didn't act like Syl did when she was mindless). In addition, they are definitely in the Physical Realm. It's possible that Rock can see spren that are in the Cognitive Realm, but these spren did not appear in their Cognitive Realm forms, and many of them rather appear as Syl does - taking the shape of leaves or other objects blown on the wind. (No Honorspren has been shown doing that inside the Cognitive Realm). Their invisibility to everybody else does not indicate they are in the Cognitive, although it is possible that this means they are closer to the Cognitive realm than a fully physical object. (Let me remind you that a mostly mindless Syl, acting like a windspren, was not visible to humans other than Kaladin when he was being transported to the Shattered Plains as a slave.) These Honorspren do have an ability which I think acts as an answer though, and its something we've never seen Syl do - take in Stormlight. The important Honorspren (Syl tells Rock that her name is Phendorana) sucks in Stormlight from a sphere! So my only theory why these Honorspren are appearing in the Physical Realm, but not mindless, is something to do with this Stormlight. Concentrated Investure can be used to pierce the barrier between the Cognitive and Physical Realms, so isn't it possible to use Investure to stay "linked" to the Cognitive Realm somehow? Anyway I have no real information or proof on this, I'd like to know if you guys think this is possible or provide your own reasoning!

Wait Aesudan died? Whoops i wasn't aware. I thought she was still alive haha, I missed the quote that Weltall pointed out which claimed she was dead. Thanks for posting so much WoBs @Weltall haha, it's been a while since i came on here so i missed a lot. As for not needing to ingest a gemheart, I just assumed that it was needed but the examples we've seen are pretty limited. We haven't seen any Humans gaining surge-powers by bonding an odiumspren other than Yelig-nar yet, so I'd say this is uncertain? Unless you had a WoB on it which I don't know of.

Oathbringer answered a surprisingly large number of questions regarding the history of Roshar, confirming theories about the Heralds, and actually telling us what made the Knights Radiant abandon their oaths. I wasn't expecting this at all and was actually almost dissatisfied, like, "that's it?" since we pretty much already knew that humans were *not* native to Roshar. However, we did learn something new and there's still a very large mystery to be answered. This mystery of course, is that surgebinding somehow destroyed a planet: Ashyn (yes, it was Ashyn, source here: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174-oathbringer-portland-signing/#e8243 ). First of all, the new thing: humans brought Odium to Roshar. This point was a bit fuzzy to me at first though, I thought that the references to their god being the "Void" were references to Honor, since Odium had claimed earlier that Honor lacked emotion and passion. However, Syl seems to tell Kaladin that the Void is Odium, not Honor, and that humankind were originally of Odium. This lines up nicely if you subscribe to the theory that Dawnsingers were Listeners who could held forms granted by Honor, before the spren "betrayed them." It also lines up with WoB that Odium arrived after Honor and Cultivation. With this knowledge, here is my general idea of the initial events on Roshar: Humans arrive, traveling through Shadesmar or some other method, at Shinovar. Perhaps this involved Odium creating a perpendicularity there (temporarily?), leading to his entrance into Roshar. The humans make an agreement with Honor, Cultivation, and the Listeners in order to inhabit Shinovar. Odium, however, wants to grab power on this planet and decides that the best way to do it is to incite the humans to try and conquer the world. Odium likely aided mankind in taking over Roshar, using this to create a force he could control even more easily: the Fused. Because of their hatred towards mankind for breaking their promises, and the way that Listeners change forms, Odium found it advantageous to switch sides and convert the Listeners into his army. At this point, Honor would then have sided with Humans - the "betrayal" of the Listeners - in order to oppose Odium. Now then, for the mystery, how was Ashyn destroyed? The Eila Stelle mentions surges, and bonds to spren, but this means it involved bonds to Odium's spren, and we have no real idea of how that would function in Ashyn. On Roshar, humans need to ingest a gemheart in order to hold surges granted by Odium (Amaram's forces on the battle of Thaylen City were bonded to Odiumspren without gemhearts, but they didn't gain any powers from this bond, unlike Amaram, who bonded Yelig Nar, and the Queen, although her precise powers weren't really displayed. The exception is Renarin, but his spren is rebelling against Odium and he seems to be using a Nahel bond and uses Stormlight: his powers derive from Honor's investure even though his spren is of Odium.) but gems being a focus for magic is specific to the planet of Roshar, so this type of interaction would be very different in Ashyn. Currently, people on Ashyn gain abilities by contracting diseases. To me, this makes sense if the disease is seen as a form of parasitic symbiosis, and compare how this works with bonds on Roshar. Nahel bonds are mutualistic symbiosis, Listener bonds are either mutualism or commensalism (uncertain what the spren in the gemheart gains), while the Fused and the Regals seem to be a form of parasitism, with the Listener being forced to comply with Odium or being destroyed completely. Parasitism is a trait of both Odium's bonds in Roshar and the magical interactions of Ashyn. Perhaps Ashyn's current magic system was created when Odium's spren left the planet, leading to diseases somehow taking their place in the magic system. None of this, however, seems to describe how an entire world could be destroyed. The only theories I've seen floating around about this seem to be that the Dawnshards were employed somehow. For this, think for a moment of Amaram and Aesudan. What type of symbiosis did they have?? Amaram's mind was preserved, and we don't know his perspective so we don't know if Yelig Nar took control of him in any way (beyond transforming his body). Aesudan, however, seems really odd. She claims "Yelig-nar serves me" - implying that it is a parasitism, but that Aesudan is the parasite. (Of course Aesudan may just have been misled and falsely believed she was in command. Also how is Yelig-nar trapped in both Amaram and Aesudan at the same time? Or is Aesudan no longer holding that power, at the time of the battle at Thaylen City?). If it is true that the parasitic nature of bonds drawing from Odium can work with the human as the parasite, and the Dawnshards are capable of "binding anything," then perhaps the Dawnshards were used to bind the very mind/soul of Ashyn. The planet itself must have a cognitive representation in Shadesmar, and the planet itself is certainly Invested. If it could be bound, through Dawnshard, into some form of parasitism were Humans drew on this investure, perhaps this could have rendered the planet uninhabitable. Okay that's it for my crazy theory. Have fun picking it apart or completely demolishing it I won't mind. If there are any WoB's I've missed on this subject please enlighten me haha. Thanks for reading this giant thingy.

Wait what if this is a nightform listener? Hiding and slipping between men... sure sounds like it's doing that.

From this week's chapters: (I can't believe nobody has made a topic about this already) This is a strange glimpse into the Iriali tradition, since we already know of other aspects of their religion (Which the Queen is shown to follow quite heavily) such as all coming from and returning to the One, and the value of experiences. Tidereading just seems completely... off, when compared to the rest of their beliefs, considering that they do not believe in gods, and also that they originate from another planet entirely. (Random speculation: one of their prior planets actually did have tides that bore messages/omens, leading to this tradition). However, there is something which many Iriali revere, and may be related to the tides. Cusicesh is the giant spren that was seen by Axies the Collector in an interlude in the Way of Kings, who appears by the coast of Kasitor, a very large Iriali city. Could it be related to tidereading? On another important note; does tidereading have actual merit? It led to Dalinar having his consultation with the Queen in the sparring grounds, while Dalinar was sparring with Kadash. Obviously, that influenced Dalinar's dialogue in some ways, but was it for the better?

I think that the spy is Rlain, the stonewalker is Szeth, and the traiter is Moash. But then, I feel like Shallan and Eshonai should be on the list, even though these guys fit better.

I think Kal's slave brands will help him gain sympathy with the Parshmen.

I know, I looked up "Lyn" and she was a scout during the battle of Narak so that was a complete theory crasher. Oh well, it was funny to think about.

Guys this was originally almost a joke but I'm beginning to like this theory. It sort of explains why that scout acted with a complete lack of formality: she didn't bow and even went flipping through Shallan's notebook without permission. That doesn't seem normal to me. To completely crash this theory, Dalinar calls the scout by name - Lyn. Is that a complete dealbreaker for her being Jasnah?

WAIT A MINUTE What if she's that random messenger girl who was asking Shallan stuff about being a radiant, and she was disappointed that Shallan wasn't rebelling enough against the sexism of the society? Could she pull of a disguise like that? She doesn't have lightweaving, but who knows maybe good makeup or something, and those eye-darkening drops. Who knows, she could probably soulcast a mask... I would say this theory is pretty out there and I don't really believe it but I find it a fun possibility.

Sanderson doesn't just waste words like this. It is my belief that Zeheb is ageless. So, if she's a Roshar native, that would make her an Aimian. But she could very well be a worldhopper, in which case you may be a kandra, Elantrian, Returned (or Vivienna!!), worldhopper using some other method of remaining immortal (Khriss?). Let's do a quick analysis on these options. Aimian: Dysian aimians are watching the "Four": Kaladin, Shallan, Szeth, and Dalinar. It doesn't seem unreasonable if one of them is hanging around him now, but would they be doing so while Kaladin grew up? Also, they can spy very effectively remotely, there is no need for their "body" to be anywhere near Kaladin, unless they're trying to protect him. I find this option possible, but not entirely plausible without better information. Kandra: WalDo?? Why would the kandra be here, though? Doesn't seem to serve many ends, unless it's being employed by Harmony/Trell to keep a watch on Roshar and Kaladin specifically. Elantrian: We have not seen any of their presence on Roshar. Does not seem plausible. Returned: Yesteel? Vivienna (Ik she's not returned but I'm lumping her here b/c she's from Nalthis). Could Yesteel disguise himself as an old woman? Otherwise, he might be on Roshar for the easy investure. Vasher, after all, was also an ardent. However, I have no clue how he could pull off this disguise. Vivienna could certainly appear this way, but it seems a bit too unimportant of a role for her to take; some random ardent in a small town, unless she somehow knew about Kaladin. I dislike the idea of some random Returned being here to hijack on the stormlight who we've never met. Khriss: she's certainly been on Roshar and is investigating it's magics. Being an ardent would also be a good position from which to discover some of these things. However, Nazh is hanging around the Shattered plains, and I don't think Khriss would hang around for decades in a tiny village to do this.

Guys I have some cool thoughts One of the few things we've heard about the Nightwatcher is that she's female according to a certain scholar but a lot of people say she isn't female. What if she's actually so old that she is femalen? On a fun side note, are the spren imagined by Dysian Aimians genderless? Do they have a gender? On that note, how do they reproduce to make more Aimians. Is there a special hordeling for that???

Guys I might be going mad but the vibe i got from Renarin is making me think that he's the copycat. I believe he's trying to frame himself for Sadeas' murder to save Adolin. First off, he certainly knows Adolin was the killer. In addition, he was in a position to see Sadeas' body before it was moved.

I had a theory that the force that shattered the plains was a more powerful version of what the Dawnsingers used to create the symmetrical Dawncities (as demonstrated by Kabsal). I still hold to this theory, along with that the Dawnsingers were some form of Listener (imagine them singing together to make these cities/shatter the plain, like they did to summon the Everstorm). This theory makes sense but doesn't have much evidence. I like it anyway. Edit: i should have read the above discussion more closely. The connection between this and cymatics was already made. @thejopen27 had a nice idea that this was connected to the end of a desolation. That seems reasonable, but I believe there were more desolations than symmetrical cities, unless that theory that there were actually 9 desolations is true.

On the discussion of cousin spren, I noticed angerspren appear similarly to the Parshendi as stormspren. Could they be cousins? Also, that would add some mirror imagery: he Windrunners bond honorspren (which represent a sentiment), whose cousins are windspren (which represents a force of nature). Meanwhile, void-form parshendi bond the stormspren, the force of nature, rather than angerspren, the emotional spren.

Ah, I got my timeline mixed up. Thanks! This theory goes to the bin then.

Hey guys, there's been lots of speculation that something is wrong with Renarin's "radiant bond". I'd like to bring up a new related theory that I haven't heard brought up. I don't entirely believe this theory, but I have given it some thought and think it should be considered. First of all, there are a few reasons to believe that something's up with Renarin: his spren is never described, and his prediction of the everstorm, while true, was excessively pessimistic. In addition, his scrawling on the walls urged Dalinar to strike at a time which led him perfectly into the (nearly successful) parshendi deathtrap. I saw a little speculation that he has bonded a voidspren or something of that sort, but I would like to bring up something new. Renarin hasn't bonded a spren at all. Because he joined Bridge Four and became very respectful of Kaladin, he might actually be a squire, who has been tricked into thinking he isn't one by some agent of Odium. This agent of Odium has been showing Renarin some, but not the entire, future. The timeline of this would look like this: the agent of Odium first appears to Renarin around the time of the first time writing is found near Dalinar after a highstorm, giving him visions. Some time later, in order to make Renarin, and eventually others, less suspicious, it urges Renarin to join Bridge Four, hoping he will become a squire and be able to ingest stormlight (we don't know exactly when his eyes heal, but it seems to be quite a while after the first scrawled messages appear. We also don't know when Bridge Four began their ability to ingest stormlight, so it could be that Renarin discovered this earlier than they because the agent of Odium helped him to do so). The agent of Odium influences him for the rest of the book, having him leave messages such as "seek the center" for Dalinar that ultimately lead to him confronting the Parshendi during the Weeping, right in time for the Parshendi to embrace stormform. There are, of course, a few points to clear up to see if this is possible. Both are yet to be answered: if squires can hear shardblades screaming, and if Renarin has stopped ingesting stormlight because Kaladin is distant. For the first point, this is pure speculation. Are Radiants able to hear the dead sprenblades because they are slightly closer to the cognitive realm? Is this also why they can ingest stormlight? Are these abilities unrelated? Would they both be given to squires? I don't think we can hope for an answer here, at least without some good WoBs (I don't have any, do you guys?) For the second point, I would like to refer to Chapter 3 of Oathbringer: *bolded section is my edit Maybe I'm just seeing it this way because I'm looking for ways to tie it into this theory, but doesn't what Renarin says (bolded) seem almost as if he wants to say something else, but can't get it out? What if he has stopped being able to use stormlight? Thoughts? I'm open to anything right now. Edit: due to timeline placement of when Renarin removed his spectacles, this theory is void.

Also the highstorm's movement can somehow be affected by the stormfather? The storm that ended the weeping was NOT supposed to come, it occurred because the Stormfather wished it to, at least according to Syl. What does THAT imply? Did the Stormfather create a new storm? Or did he simply speed up its movement? Is it that each weeping is when the highstorm dies, and a new one starts and circles Roshar for a year, before dying at the next weeping, and that the Stormfather simply created a new storm sooner?

Also, with two references now both coming from Oathbringer excerpts, and none from the other books, I'm getting the feeling that this is actually an important historical detail, as if Brandon is trying to get us to notice it right now. I didn't think that way when I first created this topic - it was just some fun speculation, but now I think it might tie into the plot somehow. That does make sense. Perhaps the Hierocracy also covered up details about the use of Honorblades (assuming they were used) which would otherwise have led to pervasive rumors about what the Shin were capable of.

In addition, you must realize that the Almighty created this image, and his future sight was likely not accurate enough to know who the champion would be. It seems more likely Dalinar recognized an emotion in those eyes than that he recognized the person.

Ah, I was unawares of that. Even so, it has seemed like a solid assumption so far. There are no WoBs on this?

Any speculation yet on the golden light? Odium's color is red, why would his power appear gold? Or, is gold just a more generic color for investure (if so, I haven't noticed/heard about it)? The only other appearance of golden light I can recall from SA is Dalinar's dream at the end of WoR, but that light wasn't "terrible", it was warm and welcoming. Perhaps that was Cultivation's power?

This came from the second sample chapter that was released this morning! Doesn't bring up much new information, but just wanted to point out the reference. What does strike me is that this Shin conquest was very expansive, its referred to as if it had taken over a significant portion of Roshar. Also, is this list in order of occurance? We know that Sunmaker was after the Hierocracy, so does that place Shubreth before the Hierocracy? It would be interesting to see if that piece of history had survived.

There are a few aspects which I think are missing a bit from this discussion. First of all, when speaking with Nan, Szeth says that the gods of the Shin are the spirits of the stars and the stone. Nan says that Szeth does not worship them, and that Nan is one of his gods. (Please correct me if I got this paraphrasing wrong, I don't have the book with me right now). Secondly, Szeth calls the Sun the "god of gods". How is this belief related to the others? We know (from above) that they worship the spirits of the stars. The Sun is the nearest star. Lastly, their treatment of stone is just bizarre. They certainly see it as sacred, and that is the reason they consider mining and building with stone blasphemous. But walking on stone seems to be different - when Szeth is in Urithiru, he says he can walk on the stone there, not because it isn't sacred, but because it is especially sacred. It's the only place in the world where the "stones aren't cursed."