kais

OK, I am ready. Let's do this!! Also, mad kudos for you for doing another rewrite. I know how hard they can be! Overall Hrm. Yes, I agree with @Alfa to some extent. Although I do like this better than any of your previous subs, it is still needing work. I don't understand the reason for the conflict, nor anyone's motivation for fighting. I want to be invested in at least one character before heads start rolling. I'm going to suggest that you do a character study, like @Robinski has been doing with Quark and Moth, but do one for Atena. No war. No killing. Maybe just... the day before she goes off to sword training. Her birthday. Something to give you a feel for who she is, so we, as readers, can get a feel for who she is. I do want to add that yes, of course, I'm beyond thrilled that the female count is up, but you didn't necessarily need to include strong females. @Mandamon has toyed around with more passive females, and that was very enjoyable. I do like Atena though, BAMF or no. I think she has potential. Can't wait to read the next one! It's fun to watch stories and writers evolve! As I go - page one: still a lot of heavy adjective use. Makes for hard reading. Suggest putting a limit of 1-2 per sentence until you get more into the hang of sparing usage. - Hm. When I think crystal melting, I don't think rubbery. - "black shadows of murderous traitors" - heavy handed here. Very caricature. Would be more impact if it was specific, perhaps something she relates to. Maybe something like (and I'm just pulling from my rear here): "Dark shadows of the Nihil Thieves, whose den she'd raided only one month prior". - 'manic horde'. Per usual, I'm going to plea for not using this word. It worked in @Robinski's piece because of the very surreal, dreamlike nature of the writing. Here, this is more concrete, and horde is a vague word that means very little. Specifics will get attention. Vague writing is just...vague. - going from 'bleary eyed' to 'snarling' is a rough transition. I'd enjoy it more if they went from bleary eyed to panicked, and their panic made the battle harder to win because there was just a teeming mass of people running around like chickens. Also, solid place for Atena to make some comment or thought that showcases her personality. Like, maybe she just can't stand commoners because they always make life more difficult. Or maybe she grew up in one of those homes and remembers what its like to be shaken from her bed by fighting. - page two: "twenty grizzled men and women". Yes. All the yes. Thank you. - I read "good old fashioned muscle' as "good old fashioned music" at first, and was really curious where you were going with this. - page two: you talk about horrors Atena has seen, but that's vague. I want specifics. Give me the horrors of her life! Spell them out! Fridge the husband (the wife?) just for the sheer irony! - page three and the discussion of aspect energy: Would like more of this, please, and more wing play in general - page five: I'm having a hard time caring about the battle, or the stakes, because I don't know what personally makes Atena fight. Need more on her motivation - page five: Dialogue or banter between Octavian and Atena would help a lot. I don't understand why they are fighting

Welcome to the group! Overall I liked it! It could use expansion, but generally I think the starting sketch of Sira is solid, and I like her personality. More detailed comments are below. I'd suggest doing some of the edits below before continuing on to more chapters, as there are loose edges to Sira that should be woven in somehow before you put her in conflict. In terms of tension, however, it did lag in places. I was very engaged by Sira, but some of the wandering, and the skipping of the stream crossing, frustrated me. Overall, however, I'd love to read more! As I go thoughts - page one: that IS an extraordinary cloud! So much so that I'm having a hard time with suspension of disbelief and edging into perhaps magic? - page one: sly grin? Excellent and creepy - page one: undergrowth cleared away - careful with the wordage here. Pine forests with that heavy a needle litter would naturally not have much of an understory. If you want to indicate some type of intervention where things have been cleared, suggest a forest that would have understory, like a young hardwood forest, or a mixed stand. Or if you're just trying to show that there is little understory, you could mention something about the depth of the duff, or the acidity of the needles. #forestrynerd - page two: the rock thing is...confusing. Rocks naturally occur in forests, and do move with some frequency. That she is surprised by it makes me wonder A) if she is on a path, B). if this is a plantation forest with defined rows that are cleared, C) if this is actually an old growth forest with no understory to speak of, hence rocks would be easier to spot. #reallyreallyforestrynerd - page two: maple tree now? OK, so we have a mixed stand. Riparian zone? Almost certainly not old growth with pine and maple together. Seeing sycamore now, too. This forest officially confuses me. - page 2: This imagination scene is adorable. That you have made the protag twelve makes me enjoy this even more, as she has already noted she is acting young, and doesn't care. I had extended imaginary worlds well past when others did, too, so I can relate (possibly I played Power Rangers in my backyard, alone, after junior high school let out. Possibly.). - page 3: leaping down creeks. AHA! We ARE in a riparian zone. OK, so she entered into upland conifers, then was walking downhill to the riparian zone surrounded by hardwoods. That's a pretty well understood forest, but you'll want to add in some extra descriptors to make this more clear from the beginning I think. - page four: so she goes up, then encounters a stream. This confuses me, as streams generally cut a path through and down. The placement of the bush makes sense if a large tree had fallen, but you've noted brown leaves on the ground, indicating hardwoods, which you already placed as riparian hardwoods, and now they persist in the uplands. Changing forest type is fine, of course, but this stream being higher up is confusing....or magical. If you're shooting for magical, it totally works. - chapter two start: All I can think of right now is Wil-o-the-Wisps. - page five: the paragraph on the mother reads infodumpy - The hurling of the necklace seems too young an action for 12, even if you've already established a young imagination. - I think you missed an opportunity to build tension by not describing the crossing - page 6: 'bungalow' does not need to be in upper case - page 7: the random bits of exposed vulnerability do not really mesh with the rest of the narrative. I think you need to build to these more, include more reasons why. Most of the narrative is spent developing this adventurous, imaginative adolescent. The sudden shock-ins of vulnerability are...confusing. Jarring. They stand out from the narrative. - ... like a flying saucer. It's these moments when Sira really shines. I'd love to see more of her imagination when you describe her trying to get into the room. Part of the magic here would be her living in two realities at once, the 'real' world and her imaginative world. Those realities are about to combine, and that creates good tension, but only if both initial realities are well defined first. Having her slip from one to the other constantly throughout this scene would really make it sparkle - page 10: again with the spats of fear. Why is she worried about being attacked from behind? - page 10: markings in a language she'd never seen - this isn't as impressive as you'd want, I think, noting she is 12. How many languages has she seen? Would be more impact if it was a script she had never seen - page 11: unsure about the stealing from the room part. If you're going solid fairy story, this should come with consequences later on

Sorry for taking so long to answer this. I was trying to find where in the book I had mentioned the depth. Turns out I just had this line: Uk pointed to the hanging screen, which now showed a topographic map of their current location and the kilometres of water that rested on top of them. Over the water was a contiguous landmass, with an opening large enough to fit a small dive ship and nothing else. It should be a distance a standard biped could not swim in one go. Eight kilometres maybe? Maybe I get rid of the oxygen limitation and just make the distance unwieldy? Ugh. Why is this so hard?

Agreed! I would buy this, even a series of this, after just a quick breeze through in a bookstore.

I totally missed this! *goes to dig*

I vote #1. And you're in good company here. I often reach these places in my drafts, have to stop writing, go back and rewrite from one, then continue on. It's frustrating, oh, so frustrating, but it really makes for a strong book start because you've gone over it so much. And when subbing, your first fifty pages are your money maker so to speak, so they have to be tight. The more you go over them, the better they get. Also, you don't have to throw everything out. Leave it there as a framework and edit around it. You'll do that anyway after you move to draft one from draft zero, so you're not actually losing any time or words. I am completely behind the age increase in Lasilia. I think the changes you've outlined above will move the front part of the book to read more active.

Alas, no. Standard landmass. I need to do something with either chemicals or extra oxygen (or having one go up and then come back down for the rest). The station was designed to hold these people, so having suits with the capacity to filter oxygen through water would be a possible means of escape the governing body would not have overlooked. Hence my issue - I can design the facility to keep them in, and then when I need them to break out, I've already backed myself into a corner. My original plan was to set up a chemical chain reaction which started with corrosion, so they could get out, which then lead to several large explosions with enough inertia to push them towards the surface. Then in theory they could swim the rest of the way (or die trying - they don't all have to make it by any means). Of course, they also have to make it to the opening in the land. So maybe a combo of chemical and extra air tanks for backup?

Yes, @Wayne Ligon, you captured it perfectly!

Sure, but it's twice as many possibilities.

Hmmm.... I like this. Stealing a ship and retrieving the others brings with it another set of difficulties though. Thanks! Going to play around with this now and see how it pans out.

Editing book two, and I'm running up against the same problem I've had before with a certain chapter. I've got characters trapped in a submerged station both underwater AND underground. I need them to escape. The following are their limitations: - the available dive suits have only one hour of O2, and it would take longer than that to swim to the surface - even if they made it to the surface, there is a landmass in the way - they've taken over the station and the governing body knows, so no one will come to the station - the station has no ships available for them to steal to leave I'm trying to avoid dues ex machina here, but I'm having a hard time. There is a small opening in the landmass so supplies and such can be brought down to the station, so that is an obvious exit, and I have some chemistry options for blowing a hole through a wall and getting some force to propel the characters upwards. In theory I could write off hypothermia and the bends via futuristic technology dive suits, but at some point it's going to start coming across as too much of a leap of faith. Help? Anyone? WWQD (what would Quirk do, ala @Robinski?)

I would also like to submit on the 8th.

If votes are being counted, I'd like to throw one in for Quark being at least bi. There aren't a lot of bi characters, especially in sff, and I think you already have a great scaffold built for it. Also, then we could get this pick up stuff on twice as many people! it could be a challenging exercise, too, for you. 'Stay in your lane' trends aside, a good writer should be able to see through many types of eyes.

@Eerongal and @Kurkistan I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation. I understand a lot more about moderators and the forum in general now. I'm also really pleased with how well the discussion did go, that (I think) everyone was heard, and that we all remained civil. I'm proud to be a member of a forum that is willing to explain its logic, hear its members, and encourage dialogue.

Ah, see, I like this! Starting with a trope (that wasn't really recognized as a trope back then, even though it totally was) and then turning it on its head. That's fun! Sort of brings Edwards' motivation into question, makes him realize his motivation was not perhaps as pure as he thought at first. I sometimes want to ask people though, why does the fridging have to happen to just the females? Like, sure, we all want to go for the low hanging fruit sometimes. We're all human. So why not fridge a male? Fridge a male and a female together! Fridge your character's favorite dog. If we must fridge, let's fridge with greater variety.

So the mods operate as more of a touchstone, sort of grounding base, instead of a punitive force? I can get behind that.

Anyone want to party with me here in the lounge? Have discussions? Trade secrets of picking up women in cafe's ala @Robinski's Quirk? Seriously though - let's talk.

Are you referring to the binary discussions? If so, I think that was critique thread specific. That's why I made that pronoun thread, but it hasn't been much utilized. We could move the whole shebang to the lounge. Would that work for everyone? Apologies for @Ghando43 for hijacking the critique thread here.

Which reminds me. @spieles when this thing goes to print, you can expect my slash fiction to be 100% Oz/Dion

Looking forward to this! Overall I didn't enjoy this as much as your first character sketches, but I still really liked it. More detailed comments below, and some LBLs. Seriously though, can we have more Quirk picking up women in cafes? Please? Thoughts on Grimes: Hmm. I found this section choppy, and I didn't connect with the character. I think part of the issue was that I know Moth from your last submission, and I really liked her, so getting only bits and pieces now is frustrating. She comes across as a caricature here, and I will admit that makes me sad. Thoughts on Quirk: Not as tight as the first round. The pre drop I had a hard time with, per comments below. Post drop I loved. Can we get a vignette where he just picks up women in cafes? I would pay money for that, hands down. Thoughts on Moth: Not much to say here, as I can't get a good sense from the outline. Suspicion (pre drop) contrasting with ice cream (post drop), has potential as you navigate this awkward stage of young womanhood with Moth that I would be interested to read, if done well As I go - the first two sentences of the first paragraph really grab me. Like, WOW grab me. Then the rest of the paragraph confuses me. I don't understand what you are talking about. - Also confused about the transport quip (something that still occupied scientists, apparently). What is this referencing? - 'crazy train station' is showing, not telling. Describe some craziness! - page two and Grime's throat tightens as he smiles as Moth. Unsure how I am supposed to be feeling about him now. Is he that kind of sketchy? It's a good descriptor, so just wanting you to know where it sends my head. - Next paragraph clears that up. Misses his daughter. Check. Not a creeper then. - Some type of transition is needed between the girl adopting him paragraph, and the Italian policeman cliche paragraph. - page three, paragraph with 'the train rolled in'. Twice now Moth has been described as 'impatient'. Might want to show this instead of tell the second time around - page 5: hehehe 'colon of a whale' - 'tight and hot" and now I'm laughing out loud - page 5, and the discussion of hips, balls, and seats: Quirk is different here, from the first sub. This text comes off more coarse than your last. Before I had the image of almost a dandy. Certainly suave. Here we get more salt of the earth with some culture. One isn't inherently better than the other, but I do find them conflicting. - page 6: 'she wore black beautifully': YES. +1 to imagery - Confused about scientists calculating the length of her skirt. Does that mean it is short? I mean, I'm a scientist, and I like women, so I'm trying desperately to figure this phrase out, because skirt calculation is something I could get behind. - page 6: Quirk's plumage comment puts us back on the dandy route. - Loving the banter between Quirk and the woman. Solid.

I guess my question then is, did it need to be reported, or just discussed? Tone is super important. You'll get no argument from me there. You and I both agree that the critique was valid, including the reasoning. Delivery was ... not our usual format. I'd argue for 'strong' instead of 'poor', but I see your viewpoint. In instances like these, instead of reporting, could we not open a dialogue for discussion? When people have strong feelings, especially over marginalization, far more progress can be made by engaging all parties than to simply have an administrator waggle a (digital) finger.

@Kurkistan I'd like to have a dialogue about this assessment, if possible. I do agree that some areas were over the top, but to report the post and/or call it insulting delegitimizes the points that @neongrey, and I myself, were trying to bring up. If the chapter (and I realize you haven't read it), killed its only two black characters at the end to advance a white male story, no one would have thought twice about neongrey's critique. I understand that sexism and misogyny are so prevalent in literature that it can be easy to sweep calls of 'foul' under the rug to protect feelings of those who do not realize what it is they are doing (and indeed, I do not think @Ghando43 was being purposefully malicious). However, I did call these issues out in Ghando's first run through, and they persisted into this next round. A stronger message was perhaps needed. As a group, I would hope that we could all agree that women deserve an equal place at the table with men (as do non binaries, but that is not this conversation). When a group, especially a marginalized group, is further marginalized or a writer perpetuates a very well know, previously highlighted derogatory stance, it is our right (and really should be our duty, but not all of us are comfortable engaging to nenogrey's extent online) to highlight the problem. In cases like this, above, to chastise neongrey for her aggressive wording is acceptable only if does not thereby delegitimize her (very rightful) anger. There is a line to walk, here, as with anything, and as someone who exists in multiple marginalized communities, I want people here to understand that posts like neongrey's should be discussed, not thrown out with the bathwater. There is a problem with the story told, it should be discussed in terms of treatment of women, and it is neongrey's right to express her anger. It is not her right to attack people directly, so yes, some of her wording could have been softer, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the forum should ignore her very relevant comments, nor the greater issues presented.

Probably because I've read the whole thing, and this is my second time through. It's not that I love Dion the character, it's that I love what he brings to Oz. In the narrative I read, Oz came alive every time Dion was around. Dialogue flowed. Everything was crisper. I was engaged with the story line, really actively engaged with Oz. @spieles knows this genre and age group isn't my fav, so it can be hard for me to get involved with these types of stories. But every time Dion was in a chapter, I was right there. That's why I love him.

So as I sit here, going through book two edits, I realized that one of my nonbinary characters in ASD is named 'Savath'. Coincidence?

Here is where my confusion came from. I read 'tiny' and I think just blocked the priestess part out, since I assumed it was a young goddess. " A tiny priestess trailing swathes of silk walked to the head of the altar, and the others attending took places around the opposite side, forming half a circle opposite her."