VirtuousTraveller

That's what I can't surmise. Other than the whole "mimicking" the Honorblade-Herald bond, I can't find a quote that supports the idea that spren created the Nahel bond with the purpose of helping humans fight in the desolations. If someone has a citation that supports that idea from TWoK, WoR, or a WoB, please speak now!

It just seems so odd for the spren to have involved themselves at all. Why did they care what Honor was doing with the Heralds? We're talking about 10 individuals on a planet filled with a rich and diverse ecosystem - why "mimic" this Honorblade-Herald model? What motivation would they have to do this? Curiosity? Humor? Child-like innocence? It seems that the spren pulled mankind (and likely the Listeners) into a war that didn't involve them in the first place. Honor and Odium were the main players. Why bring people into it?

To be 100% serious, I don't get the stick adoration! It was a funny moment that had its place, but all the stick love goes completely over my head. To me, it's like watching The Empire Strikes Back and wanting a mini series based on the Tauntaun! ::Braces for the Stick Fanboys and Fangirls rebuttal::

Ugh. The story of all of our lives :-P This comment literally sums up every forum thread on here!

I'm feeling pretty confident that Trell = Autonomy, not Odium. Remember, Hoid said in the letter that the recipient (we assume to be Frost?) accused him of perpetuating his grudge against Rayse (Odium) AND Bavadin (Autonomy). I think they're working together, or that Autonomy is using Odium to advance his/her purposes.

So after listening to Eshonai's interludes, I want to throw an idea out for discussion: The voidbringers are the Unmade. They are counterparts of the Heralds. Honor originally chose the 10 Heralds and gave them 10 invested weapons, splinters, we call the Honorblades. Spren saw this and mimicked it, creating surgebinders (the Knights Radiant) via the Nahel Bond. Odium originally splintered himself into the Unmade and gave them power that we do not yet understand. It is likely that there are 9 Unmade, as Braize (where Odium is) is 9-centric in contrast to the 10-centric cultures of Roshar (where Honor was). Spren saw this and mimicked it, creating what mankind refers to as "voidbringers," but are really things like thunderclasts and the stormform Parshendi. After all, the Parshendi obtain powers by bonding with spren, transforming them into something different, similar yet not the same as how spren bond with the surgebinding Knights Radiant. So the original battle between Honor's Heralds and Odium's Unmade became more intense as spren added men (and Parshendi) to both sides of the conflict, though this seems like an unintended occurrence by both Honor and Odium. Desolations became worse and more frequent as the spren (and the inhabitants of Roshar) became more involved. Eshonai fears bringing their gods back by using the ancient powers, gods she refers to as the Unmade (WoR). The Parshendi are determined to bring back the ancient powers to combat humans, especially because they see the humans have their ancient powers of surgebinding again. They fear the reprocusions of the Unmades' return (possibly because they, the "last legion," abandoned the Unmade by refusing to fight in the distant past). They know they will lose control as the Unmade possess them (in a way) and use them against their will. It's like the presence of too much of Honor's investiture (i.e. the Heralds, surgebinding) triggers the release of Odium's investiture (i.e. the Unmade, the "ancient power spren" of the Parshendi). In the past, Honor was able to regulate how quickly men were able to rise through the oaths and take on more of his investiture, which perhaps slowed the return of Odium and his agents. It's possible that this is what Nale fears - that men will too quickly summon Honor's investiture, which would trigger another Desolation. Perhaps this is what triggered the Recreance, that men chose to abandon the investiture of Honor in hopes of preventing the scale from tipping enough to open the gateway for Odium's return. Questions Still Unanswered How would this conflict end? The Heralds and Unmade return to their place (whatever torture they endure between desolations)? How? Did Honor and Odium agree that if one side won, that the game board (Roshar) would be reset? What does it mean to win a desolation? Since only 1 Herald returned to torture, how did the other 9 Heralds manage to keep the balance of investiture steady? The 9 abandoned their Honorblades, so does this mean they lost their connection with Honor? Did all of the Unmade return to torture (or their parallel place) at the end of the last desolation? It seems that at least one is still active (or recently became active) in Alethkar (i.e. The Thrill) and another is influencing the Death Rattles. Is Braize 9-centric because 9 Heralds stayed on Roshar or was this an original condition of Honor and Odium's arraignment? Where does Cultivation fit into any of this? What are your thoughts?

Where? The Origin? The Horneater Peaks? That Honor's perpendicularity is mobile makes it seem like the highstorm is most probable, unless the Origin moves beyond the sea somewhere. I'm not sure this helps us with Cultivation?

The when is the million dollar question! Even if we learn that my theory about the intentional fusion of the door in the Cognitive Realm isn't the case, the Dor is the power of two combined/mixed shards in the Cognitive Realm. I wonder how something becomes a reality/an ideal in the Spiritual Realm. In other words, will Preservation and Ruin eventually become Harmony in the Spiritual Realm?

The Dor is an example of the combined force of two shards, not two splintered shards. I've suggested that the Dor was the intentional fusion of two original shards of Adonalisum (Devotion and Dominion) into an entirely new thing (Unity/the Dor), which was not "putting Adonalsium back together." I don't think you'd get Adonalsium by recombining all 16 shards - I think you'd get whatever the combiner(s) intend, for the most part (i.e. the new construct of Harmony, which was an interpretation of a Vessel who holds both Preservation and Ruin - this is a new thing, not something that specifically broke down from the original).

No, I agree! That's what I mean by "there's more than we realize." It's easy to look at everything in Brandon's stories as some hint of magic or something supernatural, but I think the Sunmaker is a perfect example of a story we'll learn is just that - worldbuilding history. As for the Hierocracy, THAT'S something I think was influenced by Odium in the wake of the Recreance. Good people tried to fill the void of leadership, however over the years Odium corrupted this idea into something very different than what it originally was (i.e. the succession of the Knights Radiant). That Sunmaker "investigated" and found nothing only shows the secular nature of his conquest - "I've defeated the corrupt authorities and their lies! Now I will break down the Vorin church so it doesn't rise to power again!" (not really caring about the religious implications, but because of their powerful influence in the past). I had similar thoughts about the Tukari "God-King" after reading Edgedancer too!

I agree entirely that there's more to the Sunmaker conquest than we yet realize. Vorinism's parallels to the Roman Catholic Church are incredible, namely that during the dark ages of church history, there were obvious problems within the church involving the sale of indulgences, the forgery of old manuscripts to support current dogmas, etc. After the Recreance, there would have been a power vacuum, but it would have been natural for the structure that surrounded the Radiants to take this leadership on (the people probably looked to them anyways, especially after men greedily took the shardblades/shardplate for themselves). There's a part of me that wants to see a proto-Bondsmith in the Sunmaker (since he seems so similar to Gavilar and Dalinar, uniting the kingdom and all) or even the corruption of Odium, but I see an equally valuable possibility that this was just as you describe - the powerful nobility throwing down the corrupted authority of the clergy.

I'm curious about Radiant Spren and Honor's role in this process. In one of Dalinar's visions, Honor laments that he isn't sure how humanity will survive without the Dawnshards, which are described as "being able to bind any creature, voidish or mortal." There's something rather strange to me about Honor, a splinter of divine power, creating a system where ten individuals (Heralds) are granted ten magical artifacts (Honorblades)... ...only to have these random splinters we call spren (splinters of Adonalsium?) come along and try to mimic this "Herald-Honorblade" thing, which leads to this relationship between humans and spren we call the "Nahel Bond?" Why do spren do this? It's a weird, random thing, don't you think?

It seems that this is a paraphrased comment, but using the phrase "the scholars" while referencing the planet Nalthis would be a really unfortunate use of a generic term. This quote's use of "the" scholars leads me to believe it refers to Vasher and company. If the Five Scholars were close to being cosmere aware, then it wouldn't make sense that they'd worldhopped, unless they did it without realizing the scope of what they were doing. That they visited multiple worlds though would make this interpretation shaky.

This quote came from the signing on December 1st, but I'm curious to get some feedback about it, as it seems to contradict the information Brandon gave us recently about the Five Scholars on Nalthis. How could the Five Scholars be close to being cosmere aware, knowing more than anyone who wasn't a worldhopper (meaning they likewise were not worldhoppers), and yet also be a group that worldhopped to worlds that had gone through Industrial Revolutions? So, were the Five Scholars cosmere aware and/or did they worldhop when they were the Five Scholars? Obviously, Vasher/Zahel figured it out by the time we see him in TWoK (which takes place after Warbreaker). What do we know people?

The myth is the story about Fleet, the man who ran faster than a highstorm. In the end, he died and his spirit left his body in order to continue down to the western shores of Shinovar in an attempt to best the Stormfather. That Brandon mentions the idea of worldhopping in relation to the highstorm makes me think you're onto something with this idea @Yata.

We know very little about the Spiritual Realm, however I remember a WoB somewhere that said our concept of distance, time, and space don't apply there. I wonder if by looking into the Spiritual Realm, the place of ideal everything, that a shard can simply "see what is" in the cosmere, regardless of where it is and regardless of whether or not they can influence/communicate with it. I would imagine some things are more visible/pronounced in the Spiritual Realm than others, namely sources of Investiture (i.e. other shards, splinters, maybe beings with innate investiture?).

A glamour? I've seen people argue about where The Reckoners fits in Brandon's universe, but I've never heard that Fables was considered cosmere before :-P

http://store.brandonsanderson.com/2016-holiday-card-set/#PhotoSwipe1480812691896 Enjoy @Jondesu! Merry Weeping!

Yes! This concept of "double-prophecy" is seen in the Bible a lot. Isaiah 7:14 was a prophecy that God would deliver King Ahaz and His people in Judah from their enemies and as a sign that this would happen, there would be a virgin who would give birth to a child named Immanuel. The enemies would be defeated before this child grew up. The New Testament writers (and the majority of the Christian world) ALSO see Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy related to the coming of the Messiah, which would happen centuries later.

I can definitely read your interpretation of this, sure. The chapter title is convincing. I think the death rattles, though, offer us a picture into events not yet seen, whether in the past or the future, that extend beyond the parallel to the happenings in the book.

You captured the intensity of the claw grab SO WELL! =) That's incredible!

During my reread of TWoK, this death rattle stood out to me. My working theory is that these are the thoughts of Cultivation, reflecting on her current situation. All is Withdrawn for Me - While there's still a lot of story left to tell in the SA, Cultivation does not seem as active in the conflicts on Roshar as Honor/Odium, especially now. There are lots of magic systems going on, but the main battle seems to slate the Knights Radiant/Heralds (Honor) against the Voidbringers/Unmade (Odium). Where is Cultivation in this? Withdrawn. The One Who Saved My Life - Odium, whom Cultivation now stands against. Why? Because... The One Who Killed My Promises - Odium, who killed Honor (her promises/oaths/commitments). I'm wondering if Rayse somehow helped Cultivation's Vessel in the past (maybe on Yolen?), or perhaps there's more to the shardic interaction than we realize. Maybe Honor had become a threat to Cultivation and Odium saved her by splintering Honor. We know that Honor has focuses on oaths and binding and ideals, while Cultivation seems an intent focused on growth and progression and expansion. I Raise My Hand - a clear reference to Rayse (that's stupid) I Raise My Hand. The Storm Responds - Cultivation acknowledges Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow in the storms, who acknowledges her, however in his splintered and dead state, all she gets is the storm, which from our limited interactions with the Stormfather (and the driving insane power of a highstorm) doesn't seem super happy. She sees her lost love and longingly reaches for his hand, but gets the rage of the storm in return. Speculation. It puts Odium in a somewhat tragic place, a tragedy that I think we'll learn more about as the story unfolds (the Vessel of Divine Hatred? What a prison!). May we learn more in Oathbringer!

Brandon just said this yesterday - I think we're going to learn what happened to her in Oathbringer! =)

Great new WoB! It answers this question from a few years ago...AND OPENS SO MANY OTHERS UP. Were there originally 10 Unmade, but one was destroyed? Based on this WoB, I find it hard to believe that there's a clear-cut parallel to the Heralds. We know the Unmade are splinters of Odium (weird that he would have 9 splinters), but this WoB makes it sound like most of them are not intelligent/conscious in the way we'd think of other splinters (like spren or seons). What if some of them are big, creepy fabrials that emit variations of Odium's influence? This has been my closet theory for awhile, but I'm not quite ready to reveal it too loudly!

Ah, like Rayse agreed to the plan and "splintered" Adonalsium out of a spirit Hatred, while Leras agreed to the plan and "splintered" Adonalsium out of a spirit of Preservation. This is a new concept that I hadn't considered before - that the intents were originated in the Vessels and not from Adonalsium itself. I think this makes more sense than a mass personality split. If this is the case, then there are some odd personality traits that I wouldn't necessarily consider normal - yeah, Autonomy or Devotion or Honor could fit this model, but Ruin or Endowment? Benevolence would make more sense for a personality trait, rather than the concept of Endowment.