VirtuousTraveller

Nightform, a Listener form, also seems capable of future-sight, but in the description, it sounds like this form came after their gods (the Unmade) left, so it really makes me wonder if this form came from another divine spren bond. Nightform sounds a lot the Nightwatcher, so maybe Cultivation, at the end of the last desolation when the Unmade were banished back to Damnation/Braize, bonded spren with some of the Listeners to encourage them that hope was coming?

LOL. Another timeless set of classics out of Narak, the music capital of the ancient world, the Listener's Songs can be yours for only ten easy payments of ten skymarks! Who could forget the uncanny rhythm of the Song of Listing, or the number one holiday hit for the last ten weepings, the Song of Secrets? :-P Cuddle up to your favorite cremling and sing that romantic refrain time and time again! Use a spanreed and order yours today before the Everstorm takes this opportunity away forever!

First of all to you, I sincerely apologize for not reading the entirety of your post. I sometimes shard at work and the afternoon was busier than I anticipated. I glanced through your post, got excited because of the new WoB that I think sums up a question we've all had about a missing bead of Lerasium, and posted without thinking. Mea culpa @yurisses! TLR was a fullborn - all the powers of feruchemy and allomancy which he could compound. IIRC, there's a WoB that also said TLR augmented his sDNA to make himself more powerful. So I don't know what purpose a bead of Lerasium would serve him, unless this is the premise of the titular "The Lost Metal." Would you suggest TLR perhaps learned how to do something with Lerasium that Hoid had likewise figured out? Secondly, I'm not sure we can conclude anything else with the new WoB - Hoid used the bead to become an allomancer. How else can we read Brandon's quote?

This WoB was from his signing at Herald Washington Library on December 3rd, so I think this pretty much settles it. He used it to become an allomancer. AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT I THINK YOU'RE SAYING BRANDON! =)

So I've been reading through Words of Radiance and the Listener's songs really jumped out at me in this process. I wanted to do an analysis of them to see what clues we could comb from them as we enter the year of waiting for Oathbringer. First, some background on who the Parshendi are, from the words of Eshonai's mother: For some reason, the Listeners in the days of the Last Legion were slaves, forced into forms of power, but also forms that forced them to abandon their autonomy (not a reference to Autonomy). On one day of extreme courage, the Listeners decided to accept Dullform, abandoning their ability to think as individuals with power in exchange for freedom. To prevent a loss of their culture and history, they composed songs to remember. Here are the stanzas recorded in Words of Radiance (as chapter epigraphs): "They blame our people for the loss of that land. The city that once covered it did range the eastern strand. The power made known in the tomes of our clan our gods were not who shattered these plains." Possible Interpretation: The Knights Radiant blamed the Listeners for the destruction of the great city of Stormseat (now the Shattered Plains), but the Unmade did not shatter the Shattered Plains. So, if it wasn’t the Parshendi or Odium that messed up Natanatan, what did? Per a WoB, the Natan people were descendants of the Aimian people – what is Aimia really? Stormseat/the Shattered Plains is also listed as the place where the Parshendi became separated from their gods (i.e. the Unmade). While Eshonai's mother makes this sound like a choice the Last Legion made on their own, I wonder if perhaps they had some help in selecting a new form (i.e. moving to dullform) or if they abandoned a form entirely, submiting to slaveform, which is a lack of spren and not considered to be a form at all. "The betrayal of spren has brought us here. They gave their Surges to human heirs, but not to those who know them most dear, before us. ’Tis no surprise we turned away unto the gods we spent our days and to become their molding clay, they changed us." Possible Interpretation: The Rider of Storms was a powerful spren (maybe even an Unmade), and was responsible for bonding spren to the Listeners, but betrayed Odium/The Listeners by giving the Nahel bond (and surgebinding powers) to humans instead. This great spren’s betrayal was even worse with the eventually merging with the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast. Spren were known to certain humans before they were known to the Listeners. Perhaps this refers to pre Honor/Cultivation humans on Roshar OR maybe even to the Heralds? The Heralds would have been very familiar with surges. "The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm that gives us our forms, but more is then demanded by the smartest spren, we can’t provide what the humans lend, though broth are we, their meat is men." Possible Interpretation: The realm that gives forms is the Cognitive Realm. The Listeners exist halfway in the Cognitive Realm and the Physical Realm, similar to how Lift’s half-way in, half-way out status grants her certain odd things (like the ability to physically touch her spren). As the Listeners have a song-based hive mind (very loose description), they Listeners seem similar to The Sleepless (Dysian Aimians)? As Aimians are an ancient race on Roshar, perhaps they and the Listeners share a common ancestor in their evolution? Who are “The smartest spren?” The Listeners cannot give something that humans give spren, so in return the Listeners sacrifice their autonomy in return for the powers they offer (which isn’t required of humans). Perhaps these spren are the Unmade again who demand more, which is the full submission of the Listeners. That the Unmade want the meat of men, it seems that the poor Listeners are caught in the middle as a tool to be used rather than the object of divine desire. "But it is not impossible to blend their Surges to ours in the end. It has been promised and it can come. Or do we understand the sum? We questioned not if they can have us then, but if we dare to have them again." The Listener’s surges can be blended with the surges of human surgebinders? It seems that human surgebinders aren’t the problem – it isn’t a question if they’ll accept the blending of the Listener’s surges (whatever this means) – but rather, will the Listeners desire to blend with the humans? Who promised that this blending can and will come? "Our gods were born splinters of a soul, of one who seeks to take control, destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. They are his spren, his gift, his price. But the nightforms speak of future life, a challenged champion. A strife even he must requite." Possible Interpretation: We know that the Unmade are splinters of Odium and are therefore the gods of the Listeners. The Unmade are also the spren of Odium, but also are referred to as a gift – a gift with a price. Perhaps Odium through the Unmade gave the Listeners power (the gift), but it came at the price of their personal autonomy (the price). The strife even Odium must requite (i.e. respond to) is the challenge of a champion. Consider the Stormfather’s admonition to Dalinar: Therefore, Odium will either be defeated or find victory in this battle of champions, which will be shown (I assume) by the end of Stormlight 5. Whew! It's a lot to chew on, but what do we think? Do these interpretations sound reasonable? It makes me feel even more empathy for the Parshendi - if Gavilar was planning to bring back powers that could return the eyes of the Unmade to Listeners (which he may not have understood), I understand why they felt compelled to kill him. Slavery in a war that isn't really their beef (i.e. Odium using them as a tool, not because they're willing participants) is a horrible existence.

I'm all for the advancement of the Stormlight Archive (it's incredible), but I've been waiting a long time for an Elantris sequel! Considering the scope of his Stormlight Archive books (which involve significant planning and outlining and revision for story consistency), Elantris was essentially three characters POV from start to finish. No flashbacks. No interludes. Just a story with multiple perspectives. I think it would be very reasonable for this to fit into the mix in 2017/2018 along with The Lost Metal.

In looking at the little we know about Nalthis history, the Pahn Kahl people worshipped nature and viewed the storms of the Bright Sea as a manifestation of the "unity" of their gods (per the Coppermind). They're the only group on the planet that has even a slim connection to anything Iriali (unity of things...storm worship maybe related to the Cognitive Realm pathway to Roshar?), but it's weak at best. The colorful designs and patterns they paint on their bodies. The intense color of their hair. Color and hair were mentioned a lot in Warbreaker, but what about the yellow eye color? The Iriali also offer up golden petals to Cusicesh - maybe they recognize flowers as something special, like the Tears of Edgli? Any thoughts on other connections to Nalthis?

Shhh... Seriously though, this entire premise was built on this idea of a relationship existing between Aona and Skai, which I do believe existed. While I got an RAFO specifically when I asked Brandon if there was a romantic relationship between these two Vessels, he went on to say that shards went together after the shattering because of things like relationships or business associations their Vessels once had (or continue to have). Combined with the Biblical symbolism I read into the ideas of Dominion and Devotion, it seems like a reasonable conclusion, but alas, you are correct. This is but conjecture at this point. What I don't think is conjecture is that the shards were combined into one shardic power, Unity, which expressed itself on Sel as the Dor. I propose that Odium splintered this, rather than splintering two separate shards.

Ah, but the simplest explanations are rarely the most interesting! :-P

I don't think we can say the Heralds really were victorious though. I think Honor's champions, the Heralds, violated the rules by refusing to return to Damnation. On a technicality, because one was forced to return, Odium remained bound, however because of this breach of honor (har har), Odium was able to splinter Honor. Still, Odium was unable to send his minions to Roshar until enough of Honor's investiture reemerged in the return of the Heralds/Knights Radiant, tipping the scale to open the gates. I wonder if Odium continues this fight because he wants to destroy Cultivation too. AU Spoilers

According to the Coppermind, Rall Elorim is the largest city in Iri, so it would be strange for such a large city to be entirely in the Cognitive Realm or to be occupied by Cognitive Shadows or spren. However, we recently learned that the Iriali are not native to Roshar, and (see my thoughts here) because of their proximity to the Expanse of the Densities (possibly Nalthis), this city could have been their first place on Roshar after an exodus from there. If that was the case, then a city that sits partially or completely in the Cognitive Realm wouldn't be too crazy of an idea.

I think this makes sense - well articulated friend! I think there was some kind of agreement at the onset of Odium and Honor's meeting in the Roshar system in which Honor laid out a chess board like you describe. "I appoint my champions, the Heralds, to fight against your champions (which I assume are the Unmade). If you defeat them, I will allow you to splinter me. If they defeat you, you can try again later, but we reset the playing board." That this requires Odium to keep investing more and more is the secret, as you've outlined. I think this idea of champions is important, as Tanavast suggests appointing one to Dalinar in one of his visions. I think as part of these rules, as Honor's presence and investiture increases (i.e. the arrival of the Heralds and in recent/ancient history the Knights Radiant), it triggers the release of Odium's investiture onto Roshar, beginning a Desolation. Edgedancer Spoilers What I don't understand is how Cultivation plays into any of this. Did Honor agree to such a plan with Odium to prevent harm to Cultivation?

No, Ambition was new as of AU. Prior to that, we knew about Dominion, Devotion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, and Cultivation. We learned about Autonomy officially in the release of White Sand, but Brandon had discussed this shard (and its holder Bavadin) prior to its release. Of these "we knew" shards, Autonomy or Odium are the main culprits, but Odium is unlikely as he's trapped in Roshar (unless he escapes by SoS), and Paalm talks a lot about personal autonomy, AND Brandon revealed that Bavadin is crafty with a bunch of personas, so Autonomy's where my money is.

But Ambition has been splintered, wounded in the Threnodite system, but splintered somewhere. My guess is that we haven't seen this place yet, as there's still a lot of cosmere left undiscovered yet. I think that it's unlikely that Trell is anyone but Autonomy based on the language Paalm uses in SoS, and the fact that the spike she used was from a shard we know (which at the time did not include Ambition). Is it possible that Autonomy picked up a piece of the splintered Ambition? I suppose, however wouldn't that be something Odium would have planned for? He didn't want anyone picking up the shardic power on Sel, so he insured that it was stuck where no one could get it. I think Autonomy is working with Odium, but I don't think the two shards are combined. I think Bavadin, who we know to be manipulative and clandestine in her involvement in the cosmere, is manipulating Rayse into doing her dirty work. Possible theory: Odium escapes the Roshar system at the end of Stormlight 5 and goes to Scadrial, where Autonomy has set the stage already by messing with Harmony and building an organization dedicated to subterfuge in the Set. It's like the faceless immortals are foreshadowing a Scadrian desolation by declaring that life will be removed from the planet. Only drawback to this idea is the question of how the Stormlight Archive can be a standalone series if the main bad guy escapes halfway through, doing things in a different cosmere world. Maybe Odium regains the ability to do stuff on other worlds at the end of Stormlight 5, but has been forced to invest too much in the Roshar system (i.e. the Unmade and voidspren) that he ends up being splintered by the end of Stormlight 10, never able to fully escape (despite trying).

I agree that we haven't literally seen people migrating, but perhaps the evidence of a migration, like the presence of the Iriali on Roshar or another race on Roshar that was originally not from there. Do we have any confirmation that other races have migrated to Roshar? We know that the Aimians aren't human, but that doesn't mean they're from somewhere else.

To each their own! :-P I think the metaphor to two-in-one works with the yin and yang too. Brandon also piles layers upon layers of significance into things, so I wouldn't be surprised if both are in the back of his mind here. Yeah I saw this WoB (@Argent you're a master at these WoBs): So Ambition was Odium Enemy Number One, but since he couldn't find it, he took care of Sel first. Why Sel? It could have been his fear of the Intent of Dominion (Devotion's Intent doesn't really strike fear into me at first glance), but in reference to Ambition, Brandon says that Intent applied "in this case," meaning it wasn't always the case that Odium acted on this motive. Sel stands out because two Vessels, who were also lovers, went there with their divine shardic powers. Even if we don't accept that they fused their shards together into Unity, the idea of two shards working together would have been a threat to Odium, rivaling his place as most powerful in the cosmere. Odium also went to Roshar, where two other Vessels were known to have been romantically involved, possibly to eliminate the joint threat as he did on Sel.

I would think so, but what was the mass exodus from The Way of Kings interludes? Axies the Collector is in Iri, but I can't recall if he mentions anything about an exodus or a migration.

This is an interesting tidbit from Brandon's Chicago signing. We know that the Listeners/Parshendi are native to Roshar, but aren't sure about the other beings on the planet and whether or not they've always been on Roshar. This bit about the Irali appears to be new. So what do we know about them? The Iriali Have Been on Roshar for a Long Time Iri was one of the Silver Kingdoms on Roshar, so it's roots go deep into the history of the planet. They would have witnessed the Heralds themselves and experienced the desolations as a culture. The Iriali Have a Religion that Includes The Long Trail Ym gives us some interesting information about the Iriali people: So, we should not be surprised that the Iriali have not always been on Roshar. It seems that their people have been on three other worlds prior to arriving here, and that they expect to move on to two additional worlds before finally arriving back at oneness in the Seventh Land. I know others on the shard have discussed this story as a possible reference to the shattering of Adonalsium. Something Weird is Going On in Their Biggest City: Rall Elorim Rall Elorim is known as the City of Shadows and is a strange place. Folks here on the shard have speculated that the reference to shadows may mean that this place is where Cognitive Shadows of dead Knights Radiant or spren live. Since this is the largest city in this nation, I'd doubt it's entirely inhabited by Cognitive Shadows. Though, if we assume that the Iri migrated through the Cognitive Realm from Nalthis to Roshar (see bellow), it could be that the city is located in the Cognitive Realm. Kasitor: Home of Cusicesh the Protector An extremely large spren named Cusicesh who, at exactly 7:46am every day, rises out of the water of the bay and creates an illusion of waves around it. A translucent blue color, it measures over 100 feet tall - Axies refers to it as one of the largest spren he's ever seen. With four long arms and a strange face that rapidly shifts through male and female faces, it looks eastward toward the Origin. Those who gather to watch it appear frequently report feeling "drained" after seeing it. Some of the Iriali worship it, placing golden pedestals out to honor it. Questions Raised What other worlds were the Iriali on before? They have metallic, golden hair and paint themselves with colors and patterns. They also have strong chastity laws and discourage public nudity. Some of this sounds reminicent of Nalthis, where bright colors, the muted conservatism of Austre, and "the Royal Locks" are a part of cultures there. Since it seems that Vasher and Denth (if not others) of the Five Scholars travelled to Roshar in the past (and that Vasher is currently on the planet, as is Nightblood), there do seem to be connections here. Since the Expanse of the Densities has been speculated to refer to Nalthis, that Iri is right there on the Physical and Cognitive maps of Roshar, it makes sense that the Iri could have migrated from there. What similarities are there to the migration on Threnody? Are they the cultural ancestors (or decedents) of the Iriali? What is happening with the draining sensation that the people feel in the presence of Cusicesh? Is it a similar happening to a Larkin sucking out stormlight from a surgebinder? Do people on Roshar have innate Investiture that could be drained in this manner? Not anyone can be a vessel of stormlight, so what is it that Cusicesh is doing to them? Also, what is the symbolism of the faces that appear? Why does it appear on such a regular schedule? So other than the Listeners/Parshendi, what other peoples were native to Roshar?

This is a recent WoB from December 6th at his AU signing in Chicago. I must admit, at first it forced me to acknowledge that Brandon may be telling a different story than the one I am, however after some reflection, I think he and I are still on the same page. Here's that WoB: So here are some thoughts, though this theory of mine will be a hill I die on Brandon Sanderson, so don't you dare take it from me! 1. The Dor is an amalgamation of both Dominion and Devotion's power, which is consistent with the idea that Aona and Skai combined it together willingly and purposefully. 2. Brandon says that the Dor has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm, which can be read that it was not two separate powers of Dominion and Devotion that Odium pressed and stuffed, but a singular power. That he didn't want it to gain sentience, rather than them, is also a clue that Brandon is saying the singular Dor was the object of Odium's actions here. I say all this to support the idea that the Dor existed before Odium's actions, not as a result of them. Odium feared the intermingling (or fusing) of shards, as they would take great effort to split apart. This fear is what drove Odium to attack Sel in the first place, that the Unity of two shards had mingled to the point of fusion, hence Brandon speaking about Odium's actions against the Dor, singular. 3. It seems that in order for Odium to press and stuff the Dor into the Cognitive Realm, he had to remove/eliminate its Vessel(s), and by trapping the Dor in the Cognitive Realm, he thought he was preventing it from seeking a new Vessel or gaining sentience. Tangent: Personally, I don't think his plan worked, as per Khriss, the very planet of Sel seems to be invested now, which does give some credence to the Derethi teachings of Jaddeth literally rising from the earth. Perhaps Jaddeth is the budding sentience of this invested planet? Plus, the Seons and Skaze seem like sentient investiture to me. Perhaps Odium created them to provide a "sentience release" for the Investiture of the Dor? They seem pretty shard-specific though...I wonder if they were all Odium could split back out of the Dor? 4. Brandon explains the violent reaction the Dor creates in the Cognitive Realm as the result of the opposing Intents of the shards within the Dor, but we know that a shard without a Vessel can be very dangerous anyways: The violent reaction, then, may not only be the result of the opposing Intents, but be due to a shard not being guided by the mind of a Vessel. How interesting that the shardic power would have sought after a Vessel if it had not been trapped... 5. Brandon's phrasing that the Dor, an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, was "pressed together" by Odium is somewhat confusing. Does this mean Odium compressed the Dor? That seems to line up with the word stuffing that he uses. However, by mentioning both Dominion and Devotion immediately before this phrase, does Brandon mean Odium pressed Dominion and Devotion together? I think this is a stretch based on the grammar of Brandon's statement (and because it destroys the narrative I've proposed), but then again WoB aren't exactly inspired gospel (GASP...forgive me Brandon!) Conclusion of New Information This theory suggests that Odium came to Sel in the first place because two shards (Dominion and Devotion) had been merged into one shard (Unity), expressed via the magic of the Dor. Odium, desiring to be the most powerful being in the cosmere, found a way to kill Aona and Skai (the Vessels), splintering "that which they held" (from The Letter), and then trapped the Dor in the Cognitive Realm to prevent anyone from being able to pick it, the shard of Unity, up again.

What an incredible summary of this information @skaa! Upvote for you! This is a great idea! I wish we could open source the Theoryland database so we could do some consistent tagging of the WoBs. I bet there's a lot of hidden information like this there that the Excel wizard in me would love to digest like this! Kuddos to @emailanimal - Upvote for you too!

There was a Svordish Empire? Svorden was conquered by the Fjordell Empire as of the book Elantris (though it did maintain a strong national identity and language). Did you mean the Fjordell Empire? The Emperor's Soul takes place in the Rose Empire, which from the 10th Anniversary of Elantris maps we can see is (likely) northwest of Teod (though the map refers to this region as "Rose Barbarians," so perhaps it isn't an Empire yet). That a Derethi Gyorn is there implies to me that the threats posed by Arelon and Teod have been dealt with, as they seemed really important to Jaddeth and Wyrn's vision of the world. That said, it makes sense that The Emperor's Soul would take place after a lot of important things have transpired on Opelon/Sycla after the events of Elantris. Now that Raoden and crew have reignited the powers of Elantris, it seems strange that they would fall to Wyrn so quickly, but then again, the Derethi seem to have a lot of hidden power up their sleeves (you know, other than creepy, twisted bones).

This is a WoB that has been debunked. Brandon and Peter have confirmed this is not true. Sadly, it pops up every so often and we're sad to see it's not the case. I wish they'd update Theoryland to reflect this!

Her brokenness of having her legs crushed could be the crack in the spirit web to allow a spren to bond with her, however I would wonder if the Stormlight would actually heal her legs. Kaladin's slave scar doesn't heal, as it's such a vital part of his identity that it doesn't go away when he heals. If this brokenness that Rsyn experiences is connected to her shattered legs, I'm not sure she'd be one to be up and jumping around with a shardblade or shardplate.

There's also a WoB that says the metal spike that Bleeder was using was from a Shard that we do know. I think Autonomy is the culprit, however I don't know that Autonomy is working alone. In some thoughts on another thread, I suggested that Autonomy is baiting Harmony into a conflict with Odium, as Odium definitely has the intent to destroy other shards. In The Letter, Hoid references his grudge (singular) against Bavadin AND Rayse. so I'm working under the theory that they're working together somehow (even if that means Autonomy is using Odium).

Oh no, I think the desolations were originally a part of whatever Honor and Odium came up with forever ago. I think they've become worse and more frequent (up until 4,500 years ago when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact) because of the spren's interference with the original agreement between the gods. Imagine you're Odium and after a span of time, you see that the Heralds return to Roshar. You start licking you lips in anticipation, knowing you get the chance to unleash your wrath, only to find out that instead of the Heralds, now you're dealing with hundreds (if not thousands) of invested warriors (the KR) as well. Honor looks at you and shrugs, saying he didn't do this and "how is it my fault if these spren decided to get involved?" Odium now really wants to make things bad, so through the power of the Unmade he enslaves voidspren (or more likely, he corrupts regular spren, who then become known as voidspren) who makes things worse. After all, Dalinar learns in one of his visions that Sja-anat causes a strange effect to any spren it touches. With the addition of humans (and the Listeners, who are claimed by corrupted spren, allowing Odium more direct engagement in the desolation than before), things get a lot worse.