VirtuousTraveller

And even worse, in theory if Autonomy did leave the Taldain system, it would have pulled all of its investiture with it, since First of the Sun has a perpendicularity that was likely left by a shard at sometime in the past!

Well, it depends on how we define "inaccessible." It seems that a planet can be visited via the Cognitive Realm (now formally known as Shadesmar everywhere?), but a traveler cannot exit the Cognitive Realm into the Physical Realm without a perpendicularity. Since Nazh is from Threnody, we can assume there must still be a perpendicularity on the planet somewhere from a past shard. Otherwise, he couldn't have left the Physical Realm (since we don't know of any Elsecalling-like powers on that planet).

Roshar's map is essentially one big continent. Any chance these folks came from Roshar? There were dramatic events that could have triggered a migration of people: a desolation, the Recreance, Sunmaker's reign, whatever "scoured" the land in Aimia? Nale's quest of cold justice could be seen by a persecuted people as "the evil" referenced in SH. There were once "silver" kingdoms on Roshar (weak connection, I know). Holes with this idea, of course, are the lack of references to anything on Roshar.

Hola to you too Savanorn!

Evidence that it's a Shardpool of residual Adonalsium investiture would be the pre-Honor/Cultivation/Odium spren on Roshar, so that's definitely a possibility. I'm not sure the Drominad/First of the Sun example is considered a Shardpool, or at least it hasn't been confirmed as such by Brandon. This magic system is, however, an example of naturally occurring investiture IIRC which is connected to Adonalsium. I cite the above-mentioned WoB because it seems that the Shardpool we see on Sel, which is assumed to be of Devotion, is "the same thing" as what we see in the Horneater peaks. I guess we're operating under the idea that a shard is limited to a single Shardpool, which may not be necessarily true. Considering Preservation had three Physical Realm forms (Lerasium, Well of Ascention, and the Mists), as did Ruin (Atium, dark Shardpool, and the black smoke near the Well of Ascention), do we think each shard MUST have multiple Physical Realm forms?

So we understand that Hoid is presumed to be Lunu'anaki of the Horneater stories that Rock tells. We know that Hoid uses what is presumed to be a Shardpool in the Horneater Peaks to worldhop, but whose Shardpool is it? It's nowhere near The Valley where The Nightwatcher is (relationship to Cultivation), nor is it connected to Honor's presumed perpendicularity at the Origin. Any ideas?

I agree. Though aren't some of the spren on Roshar pre-Honor? As though some of them were spren of the shattered Adonalsium beyond the 16 shards? That's true. I wonder why these 16 specific intents were attached to the shards. It seems strange that "the perfect version of hatred" becomes a shard, while the "perfect version of peace" may not have (it may, we just don't know yet). There's still so much we still don't know!

That's a really curious thought. I've always viewed the raw power of a shard (i.e. investiture) as just that - raw spiritual power. The intents of the shards then dictate why (and maybe how) the Vessels use said power wherever they choose to go. It seems strange that two shards chose to use metal as a focus of their investiture (Preservation and Ruin) while another chose to use the concept of color and breath as a focus/channel of their investiture (Endowment). It almost seems arbitrary. That the power is invested at all also seems to be in the control of the Vessel. Perhaps the Vessels do get to control some things, but are obviously limited by the shardic intent that they possess. My working theory is that Aona and Skai, to prevent the intents of their shards from interfering with their relationship (or perhaps in line with the intents of their shards toward one another), jointly created the Dor. Perhaps they did this to become stronger in the face of opposition (Odium)? Again, we can only speculate until we finally know the truth.

It's possible that my views on the Dor are wrong, but sadly we won't know until we get more information out of Brandon. I agree with you that the reason the Dor makes the Cognitive Realm so dangerous is because there isn't a sentient mind to control it. I just believe the Dor was in the Cognitive Realm because two sentient minds put it there in the first place =) It worked nicely when under the control of two unified Vessels, however their deaths made it into the mess it has become. I wonder if the reason Kelsier helped to prevent a similar probelm on Scadrial was because the investiture of a shard, without a Vessel to control it, leaks from the Spiritual Realm into the Cognitive Realm, where it becomes messy. Granted, we don't really know what this investiture in the Cognitive Realm looks like, other than it makes worldhopping dangerous/impossible.

The Nightwatcher. WHAT ARE YOU?!? What boon and curse did you give to Dalinar? Are you Cultivation, a splinter of Cultivation, or just a big spren (or all three)?

While I think there is a parallel between Harmony and Unity (Devotion + Dominion), there is a key difference: Harmony didn't fuse the powers of Preservation and Ruin. He just holds them in balance. Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy all continue to work because they are of Preservation and Ruin, two shards that continue to exist, just held by one Vessel. Therefore, I agree with you that Harmony has not pulled or fused all the spiritual powers of his two shards into the Cognitive Realm. The Dor (as I propose, we obviously don't know yet) was always the fused power of Devotion and Dominion, fueled from the Cognitive Realm on Sel. Hoid's ability to use Allomancy off world is fueled from the Spiritual Realm by Preservation's shardic power, not bound by location.

No hard feelings! Have an upvote for good measure =)

I'm moving some thoughts I posted on another thread about splintering shards here, as I believe it helps understand not only the idea behind how/why shards would pull power together from the Spiritual Realm into the Cognitive Realm: The Dor was a joint creation of Aona and Skai, a fusion of their powers together in complete unity as a product of their completely unified loving relationship. This construct, I believe, was possible by dumping the spiritual power of both shards (formerly in the Spiritual Realm as two things) into the Cognitive Realm, as the idea of Unity was a creation of their minds (as all relationships are). The Dor is power of unity imagined, not necessarily the mutual spiritual intent of Devotion and Dominion. Perhaps Aona and Skai did this because they knew their shardic intents could negatively impact their relationship if they allowed the intents to change their personalities over time if left unchecked? This, the original Dor under the joint control of Aona and Skai, is the exception I believe Brandon is referencing in the above quoted WoB. I believe the Dor's primary residence in the Cognitive Realm is what allowed it (the shard Unity) to be splintered - it was already an unstable force bound only by an incredibly strong relationship of two divine Vessels. The idea of a combined shard's power existing primarily in the Cognitive Realm is also seen in with Harmony. It's considered "one" shard, but the spiritual power fueling it is not one: it is the competing spiritual intents of Preservation and Ruin. That Sazed perceives the combined spiritual power as "Harmony" between to opposing forces is, to me, a cognition of his own creation (meaning no Sandersonian warlock [an Ahlstrom, if you will] appeared when Sazed picked up Preservation and Ruin and said, "THOU SHALT BE HARMONY!") - it likely required him to pull the power from the spiritual ideals of Preservation and Ruin from the Spiritual Realm into the Cognitive Realm. My thoughts on splintering a shard, requiring a shard's spiritual power/investiture to be in the Cognitive Realm, are related to the idea of combining two or more shards: combining shards magnifies the power of the new shard by mixing the powers together in the Cognitive Realm (since the new shard is the cognitive creation of the Vessel(s), but while it brings increased power, it also brings increased instability of said power, making it easier to be splintered apart.

I disagree with your assessment that what I've brought to this conversation is "straying." The theory of Odium's method of shard shattering as discussed here involves moving/forcing a shard's spiritual power into the Cognitive Realm. I agree this is involved in the process, but it is not the final step. Once the power is in the Cognitive Realm, it is there that it is somehow possible to splinter. Since I propose that the combined spiritual power of Devotion and Dominion were already in the Cognitive Realm when Odium arrived on Sel, it made it that much easier for him to do whatever it is that he does (perhaps why The Letter refers to his visit to Sel as brief?) The OP mentioned the Cognitive Realm on Sel, which is why I chose to contribute to this conversion. As to spren's investiture existing in one realm or another, perhaps when Honor's power was pulled into the Cognitive Realm by Odium to splinter him, this contributed to the spren's memory loss issues?

Not at all, friend Spoolofwhool! The Dor was a joint creation of Aona and Skai, a fusion of their powers together in complete unity as a product of their completely unified loving relationship. This construct, I believe, was possible by dumping the spiritual power of both shards (formerly in the Spiritual Realm as two things) into the Cognitive Realm, as the idea of Unity was a creation of their minds (as all relationships are). The Dor is power of unity imagined, not necessarily the mutual spiritual intent of Devotion and Dominion. Perhaps Aona and Skai did this because they knew their shardic intents could negatively impact their relationship if they allowed the intents to change their personalities over time if left unchecked? This, the original Dor under the joint control of Aona and Skai, is the exception I believe Brandon is referencing in the above quoted WoB. I believe the Dor's primary residence in the Cognitive Realm is what allowed it (the shard Unity) to be splintered - it was already an unstable force bound only by an incredibly strong relationship of two divine Vessels. The idea of a combined shard's power existing primarily in the Cognitive Realm isn't really a stretch. Consider Harmony - yes, it's considered "one" shard, but the spiritual power fueling it is not one: it is the competing spiritual intents of Preservation and Ruin. That Sazed perceives the combined spiritual power as "Harmony" between to opposing forces is, to me, a cognition of his own creation (meaning no Sandersonian warlock [an Ahlstrom, if you will] appeared when Sazed picked up Preservation and Ruin and said, "THOU SHALT BE HARMONY!") Does this answer your question? I enjoy that you respond to my posts - it makes me feel like a part of the 17th Shard community! =)

If we think of the Dor as the creation/fusion of two godlike powers/shards via their loving relationship (i.e. new shard called Unity, which existed before Odium, and which Odium splintered), it makes sense why the Dor is creating such a mess now that Aona and Skai are dead. Think about a relationship that ends badly in the real world - it's messy and can often be incredibly destructive (both to the people in the relationship and also to everyone around them)!

As I've theorized before, I believe the Dor was the cognitive creation of Aona and Skai, in which they fused their spiritual shardic power together through the power of their unified love. Since relationships occupy no physical space and are the creation of our minds, this is why I think the Dor is the exception Brandon references.

Not to hype the unrealistic, but the image of the Table of Contents ends oddly at the bottom - no "index" or "glossary" or anything. Theory: There's a page two and it holds a secret none of us are expecting!

Correct, which is why I think it's an interesting piece of complementary evidence to my initial theory. This universe is so gigantic that we're all going to look back one day and smile on our predictions once we all know the truth! Upvote for reading my original theory on this! =)

We know that a divine breath is a splinter of Endowment, which is given to every Returned. We know that every Nalthian has a breath, which is the power of life - " a certain BioChromatic Investiture" according to the Coppermind. Nightblood required 1,000 breaths to create. We know that splinters can, over time, develop sentience on their own. Can investiture (not necessarily a splinter) develop sentience on its own? In other words, could Nightblood be considered a splinter of Endowment, since it was created with a significant amount of Endowment's investiture?

The Letter confirms that Rayse/Odium splintered "that which they (Aona and Skai) held" on Sel. I think the combined power of Devotion/Dominion into the more powerful Unity shard was what drew Odium's attention to Sel in the first place. He wants to be the most powerful being in the cosmere, so he had to destroy this power so it couldn't challenge his strength. Plus, the intent of Unity would be a brewing force of opposition to his plans to destroy all the other shards by shattering them even further via splintering.

I've suggested before that Devotion and Dominion were originally combined into the shard Unity by their owners Aona and Skai, creating the Dor (check out my theory here). In my reread of TWoK, I believe I've found another piece of evidence that supports this idea. In The Letter, the quote above says that "that which they held has been Splintered," which sounds like it could refer to a singular thing (i.e. the shard Unity). I realize that the singular thing could mean many things (i.e. the power of their shards), but why would Odium go to a planet where two shards could theoretically overpower him? Perhaps he targeted the planet because their Unity shard was so powerful (and a sign of what combined shardic power could be) and he felt that he needed to deal with it before any more power could be combined with other shards (hence why he's so afraid of Harmony). Perhaps this means that Odium is the doom coming to Scadrial, as he wants to deal with Harmony quickly before Sazed becomes more cosmere-aware. We know that he has plans to deal with Harmony - maybe he hopes that by splintering these combined shards before they can make cosmere-wide plans to address Odium's power, he can remain the most powerful force in existence. If Odium is released at the halfway point of The Stormlight Archive, it seems that Mistborn era 2 (or 1.5 however you call it) is right in that same time period.

I'm saying that there are rules for all kinds of things in the Roshar system and it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that passage to and from Damnation/Braize would be likewise regulated by rules. Because of your stated theory - "he wants to stop Rayse." I don't know how he intends to do that (none of us do yet), but I think there's a connection between an individual's status as a KR and their pathway/destination after physical death. Maybe Hoid is "encouraging the progress" of soon to be KRs because he wants to go to Braize with an army instead of by himself? I agree it seems like a stretch than a being who is practically immortal would allow himself to be killed, but Brandon explains that the King's Wit is a person who can either be killed outright at personal cost, or stealthily killed without cost, which could be a clue as to why Hoid is a wit and not a story teller or ardent or scribe or any other position that could likewise be close to important lighteyes. SOMETHING is going on in the afterlife with Roshar and I think Hoid is attempting to hack/intervene in this problem. Perhaps there's something about being killed on Roshar specifically that plays into this. Right, and we know that Hoid's sDNA is obviously all sorts of things, which could translate to powers in whatever happens after physical death on Roshar. I'm operating under the theory that the KR either have powers (i,e, surgebinding) they can use in the afterlife to fight in the war to reclaim whatever the Tranquiline Halls are, OR they get no powers and are transported as some kind of sacrifice to Odium to satisfy the Oathpact (hence why the KR abandoned the oaths and ran far away). Either way, I think they get transported to Braize.

If anyone was to be silly, Hoid would be the perfect candidate :-P I think the magic systems on Roshar are governed by very specific rules as determined by the three shards at some point in the past. To say that transport to Braize is "just as easy as going into Shadesmar" seems too easy. Granted, it seems that Taln was forced back to damnation when he died, but the other Heralds had the choice to return willingly - perhaps all a part of the rules of the Oathpact? Hoid may be trying to hack a specific set of rules that are specific to Roshar.

Fair point, but Hoid is in many ways different than any other Cosmere character. My wonderings are if he has the ability to allow his physical body to die, which would "hack" the Rosharian "invested people afterlife railroad" to wherever it goes. Originally I thought Hoid could just hop in the perpendicularity in the Horneater Peaks, but I'm more convinced that travel to this afterlife afterworld requires a specific type of death. If death removed investiture powers on Roshar, doesn't that defeat the idea that the Heralds and KR have power in the afterlife to fight the voidbringers?