VirtuousTraveller

I would agree that Threnody does not have a shard on it and that the "magic" we see on the planet (if you can call it that) is not shard based from the information we have in these two WoBs. I don't know that I'd agree that this means a shard couldn't have been the cause of the issues with the shades though. Odium never invested on Sel, but the results of his actions definitely were felt there. I have a feeling that there's way more to The Evil than we yet know. Obviously it wasn't a shard that opposed Adonalisum in the first place, nor was it a shard that shattered it.

The general consensus about the force coming at Scadrial is either Odium or Autonomy. Here's an alternate idea: The red haze Sazed showed Wax and red-eyed faceless immortals are related to The Evil that caused havoc on Threnody. Support for this idea: In MB: SH we see there being a connection in the Cognitive Realm via the Ire that the Threnodites may be coming toward Scadrial. Three hundred years later, perhaps The Evil made its way from Threnody to Scadrial (or almost to Scadrial) and is causing trouble there. It seems like a weird coincidence that Brandon mentions the Threnodites at all in MB: SH, unless there's a connection to the story. Miles Hundredlives was under the influence of something. Since SH shows the Ire (most likely from Sel) and a risk of Threnodites, to me the something would be related to one of these places. If the red haze/red-eyed faceless immortals are influenced by something from Sel, to me it's likely related to the Svrakiss. Interesting idea though, what if the reason the Ire are so worried about something coming from Threnody is because they know the Svrakiss came from there in the first place? Sounds awfully similar to shades to me (with cultural references added in to make it religious). Not that they're the exact same thing, but similar. Whatever The Evil was/is, it created an issue with the afterlife on Threnody, which is why shades float around everywhere. This could be a result of The Evil's ability to put a barrier in the Cognitive Realm, preventing souls from moving on to the Great Beyond. The red-eyed faceless immortal that speaks with Suit at the end of BoM says that he can "serve in another realm." Perhaps The Evil is starting the same kinds of mischief that it caused on Threnody. Disclaimer: It is completely possible that Odium was The Evil on Threnody, but I find it very unlikely that Autonomy was. Let the story overlapping begin! It's beginning to look a lot like cosmere! =)

I wonder if whatever The Evil from Threnody has somehow, by the time period of Mistborn Era 2, moved onto Scadrial. I haven't seen this idea around yet (many assume it's either Odium or Autonomy), but we really don't know what The Evil is/was other than something powerful that forced a mass migration on/to Threnody. The shades don't seem directed by The Evil, more a result of it's influence? Since the shades seem the result of some force messing with the afterlife on Threnody (possibly a barrier in the Cognitive Realm), maybe this is what the red eyed faceless immortal meant when it told Suit he could serve "in another realm." (i.e. The Evil can stop people from moving on into the Great Beyond of the Spiritual Realm).

IIRC breath in general is a genetic aspect of humans on Nalthis. With a single unshattered shard, I like the idea that Nalthis is the second place of created humans!

Yep, it's just a theory (sorry if my initial comment sounded more authoritative than it should have)! I don't even think I can claim ownership of the idea, as I feel like I've seen it trickled in here and there around the forums. I think with how WoR ended, we're going to get a much clearer picture of what Shinovar looks like and (hopefully) some more info about it's history!

@Chaos put these ideas forward a couple of years ago and I noticed this is one of their espoused theories. I'm curious about their thoughts on the regional component of Selish magic being an original condition of Sel or as something that happened as a result of the splintering of Devotion and Dominion.

I've seen traces of this idea around here in the forums but no, this is just conjecture at this point. "Likely and perhaps," two words that get we theoryweavers into trouble sometimes!

I'd agree Brandon isn't talking about some type of sexual innuendo. You're correct that the context of Genesis 3:16 is the punishment Eve was handed by God after her sin in the Garden of Eden, however I don't see pregnancy connected to the statement I quoted about desire (my interpretation Devotion) and Adam ruling over her (my interpretation Dominion). Painful childbirth is one component of Eve's punishment. A second is that the male will have leadership over her in the marital relationship. Adam's curse was the burden of said leadership and the responsibility that goes with it, knowing that his work would be even harder (both the work of his hands and his responsibilities to his wife) now that he likewise sinned. While there are plenty of viewpoints on God's intention for gender, this is one of the first/earliest passage in the Bible that references male-female relational/marital dynamics. This, the relationship between a husband and wife, is what I was referencing (as Aona and Skai are believed to have been in a relationship). There are a lot of Biblical allusions that reference the (borrowing another religion's term) "ying and yang" of a marriage (submission and sacrifice, leadership and support. etc). If Aona and Skai were in a relationship and had to co-exist with these divine powers with underlying intents that could impact said relationship, the idea of Aona completely committing herself (Devotion) to the likewise passionate protection and leadership of Skai (Dominion) makes sense to me. The resulting Unity that comes from two people in completeness (i.e. one flesh) fits the idea of the ancient Jesker teachings about the Dor existing in everything, as this Unity was the driving force of shardic interaction with the planet on Sel. These two concepts of Devotion and Dominion existing in the Biblical beginnings of the marital relationship/dynamic just seem like an intentional allusion that a writer from a Christian background would employ. Granted, this could all be 100% wrong, but until we get Elantris 2 and/or 3, we can only continue to speculate!

I'm ripping this thread from the grave to sprinkle some thoughts on it! What if the reason magic has become regionalized is because the magical unity that formerly existed with a combo shard (of Unity, which was the Dor of the ancient Jesker religion and the message of Shu-Keseg) no longer exists? I've theorized that Aona and Skai intentionally fused their shardic powers to create a Unity shard, and thus the unified Dor existed all over Sel. After the splintering, without a mind(s) to guide it, the Dor became incredibly unstable and caused all kinds of strange things to happen with the magic system on Sel. Perhaps the shards of Devotion and Dominion, damaged and splintered as the are, created the fragmented and regional magic systems we see not as a result of the initial intents of the Vessels (unity), but because of the mindless aftermath of Odium's splintering.

I've wondered if the whole 3 of this passage to refer to the three shards on Roshar, that one Bondsmith is present for each shard (Honor, Cultivation, and Odium). Perhaps there could only be one Bondsmith per shard according to the shard's rules, that only one Rosharian being/human per shard, could wield the powers and responsibilities of being a Bondsmith.

It seems likely that the Skybreakers were the last order, as Shallan's brothers were trying to get in contact with said group in the present time. Nale's admonition to Szeth at the end of WoR seems like he's frustrated with the Shin who now will get justice, perhaps because they (the Shin being the descendants of the Skybreakers) lost their commitment.

It's possible that Honor tricked Odium somehow into what you describe, so yes, I think the Oathpact drives Odium nuts, but I wonder if something more personal is involved. After all, Roshone was forced to go to the backwoods almost as an exile, where he could do no more harm to anyone else. Sounds a lot like Rayse's situation to me. But would you argue that Lirin's action were the textbook definition of something completely dishonorable? Trying to protect his family's ability to educate their son or insure that his son could marry up and improve his station life doesn't come across as inherently bad to me - it would violate my personal ethics, but Lirin was a man of honor (he served an unappreciative town for no pay for years). I think Odium's rage is focused on getting revenge for what was done to him, the exile to the Greater Roshar system. But how intense to know that he was bound by trickery, not by a more powerful force necessarily, by a force who was the embodiment of divine honor? Yeah, I'd have a bone to pick too. I think the great reveal at the end of this story is that, like Kaladin learned, the good guys and the bad guys aren't always so clearly defined. We may have a different perspective of Odium by the end of this!

Granted. Your bane shall be that you will be hated by all who receive magical powers by your hand, forever resented and never appreciated for what you give. I wish to be a respected political advisor with a perfect recollection of the past that I can use to guide my nation forward, while avoiding the pitfalls of history.

As I'm rereading TWoK, I'm wondering if there's a parallel between Kaladin's parents and Honor/Cultivation and Rashone. Kaladin's father is seen as an honorable man standing strong in the face of seemingly unjustified hatred from Rashone, but we eventually learn that he actually did something very unhonorable by taking advantage of the dying Wisteo (forgive my spelling). It's even explicitly said that his mother was in on the theft when Kaladin finds out about it. We talk a lot about Rayse being a hateful embodiment of evil, but we haven't really learned why there's so much hatred directed at Roshar specifically. I bet Honor/Cultivation did something shady to Odium and now Roshar will feel the wrath for it.

Brandon though, raised with a Mormon-Christian background, would have been more familiar with the English translation that I referenced. I'm implying that the concepts of Devotion and Dominion are expressed in the meaning of these verses, not necessarily the exact words.

I predict that 1stBondsmith will bring out the Blackthorn at some point in this thread's life :-P More seriously though, I suspect that the reason Dalinar struggles to fight (i.e. the sudden loss of the Thrill) is related to his boon/curse from the Nightwatcher. Perhaps he desired to forget the woman he loved (boon), but also lost the ability to love that which made him famous (ability to fight in combat).

I hear what you're saying about length, but Elantris, Mistborn: The Final Empire, and even the Steelheart move so quickly that I would highly recommend considering them too. I think they're great stand alone stories as well, so even if your book club doesn't love it after finishing (and crave even more), at least they've read a good story! =)

How amazing will it be if AU gives us a more concrete timeline of the cosmere?

What do we know about the origin's of the Heralds (pulled from the Coppermind)? They are servants of The Almighty (Honor) There are 10 of them in total, each with an Honorblade given by the Almighty They are not Slivers (having never held the power of an entire shard) If they die, they return to what we assume is Braize to be tortured If they don't die, they are supposed to return to the place of torture on their own In the last desolation, Taln died and returned to torture, but the other 9 remained on Roshar, but gave up their Honorblades I have some questions that I'm curious for feedback about. It's a running list and some of it just might not be known right now, but I believe in the power of the 17th Shard - you all help me gain so much insight into this amazing cosmere Brandon has created for us! Did the Heralds have to give up their Honorblades to stay on Roshar (instead of returning to torture)? Are the Heralds always the same spiritual being (but change bodies each time they return)? Why and how did the Shin come into possession of the Honorblades? Do the Honorblades normally go back to the place of torture with the Herald? Are Honorblades splinters of Honor? Do they have any sentience of their own?

This is awesome! =) Great questions. I've been wondering some things about Hoid myself, but it seems we can confirm that he is a physical, naturally born human (or cosmere version of human).

I'm not sure what the last request was, but I'll jump into this game for the first time! I wish to be a twinborn with feruchemal copper and allomantic brass so I can always remember, and so I can help people forget (be calm and relaxed)!

I think we can now say that the Cognitive Realm is known as Shadesmar by off-world folks, per the release of Khriss' intro to the Drominad system! =)

I think their goal is pretty SEL-fish too :-P

So since the emerald pool known as Patji's Eye is "natural manifestation," leading me to believe that this is perhaps magic that has its roots in Adonalsium (or it's shattering).

I was really bumming when Oathbringer kept getting pushed further and further into the future, but this collection, I think, will be the jolt we all need to make it through until next fall! I think we're going to learn SO much about the Cosmere! =)