VirtuousTraveller

By far my favorite chapters yet released! My thoughts on the copy cat killer: Perhaps Renarin with his light weaving powers is sneaking around doing them because if whatever dark influence that seems to be tainting him? A Connection of interest (see how I capitalized that?): Connection. Identity. The parshmen had these things ripped away, and now they're suddenly back. This sounds a lot like what happens to the Heralds between desolations too! (and yay for crossover cosmere terms!)

Interestingly enough, on the OTHER side, in the Cognitive Realm, there's a perfect staging area of solid ground from where enemy troops could congregate before pushing through into the Physical Realm.

This sounds a lot like what we read about in Baxil's interlude in WoK:

So you're suggesting that Vasher was known as Zahel FIRST, as he was native to Roshar (a possible Herald?), but traveled to Nalthis where he made Nightblood, who was then taken or brought back to Roshar, forcing Vasher to return to Roshar where he was originally from? I think I recall Brandon shooting down the idea that Vasher was a Herald, but the idea of him being from Roshar originally is interesting!

I'm more curious about that moment before the prologue, the one we haven't seen yet. The one where we see what exactly a "victory" over the voidbringers actually entails. Did it involve the complete and total destruction of every last void-bonded creature on Roshar? Did it involve the defeat of some kind of champion? Was this most recent victory different than desolations in the past? I'm even more curious about the moment after the prologue, not in this current cycle of desolation, but in the desolations of the past. Are the Heralds dramatically ripped back into their other realm? Does this happen immediately or do they have time to help rebuild the world? Do they make a conscious choice to return? How often do all but one of the Heralds stay alive? Once we have this information, then I'll react emotionally to these things we call Heralds =)

I think one becomes Truthless when it has been proven that they've told a serious lie. Szeth was made truthless after (I assume) he told the Shin elders that the Knights Radiant have returned (or at least their powers have, or that spren are bonding with people again). Because this couldn't possibly be true, they condemned him to this punishment of being "truthless," where he forfeits his right to exercise judgment over his behavior (since he's a grand liar) and must rely on other people to tell him what to do. The irony is that Szeth is not at all Truthless, because what he told the Shin was true. When he learns this at the end of WoR, he must now accept that all of the terrible things he did were not because he was lying or going crazy (making him justifiably Truthless), but instead were things he did as an honest Shin person. This is why I think we're going to experience an "Anakin and the Sandpeople" moment when Szeth goes home to Shinovar in Oathbringer.

I just found this WoB...I'm feeling more convinced that the Iri once lived on Nalthis.

I don't think it's improbable at all that Odium has a bondsmith - in fact, it seems likely to me that this is the case: I think these rules involved all three Rosharian shards and their agreement that binds their actions. Based on the quote below, I think this relates to the giving of bonds to living creatures on the planet. My guess is that Honor regulated the bonds between men and his spren (i.e. Knights Radiant). I also think that Cultivation regulates the bonds between other living creatures and her spren (i.e. Ryshadium, Greatshells, and for a time the Listeners). (I think that these two shards have assumed the Investiture that remained of Adonalsium that originally inhabited Roshar. To me, it seems unlikely that a third bondsmith would be related to a non-16 shard of Adonalsium.) That would leave Odium to regulate the bonds between his voidspren and whatever things they can bond to (which seem to be Listeners/Parshendi and possibly greatshells among other things). The bondsmiths seem to me to be the Physical Realm beings on Roshar that somehow oversee/manage this process for each shard.

Welcome to the forums! It seems like you're newer here. Some of your thoughts hit on the big questions we're all wondering about too, but it maybe helpful to read around the forums a little bit to get some perspective on these things. Odium is not invested on Sel, so it's very unlikely that the evil forces there (i.e. Jaddeth and the skaze, also the svrakiss) are of his investiture directly. It does seem like they should be, but the evidence supports otherwise at this point. The Dor is a combination of the splintered power of both Dominion and Devotion, currently stuck in the Cognitive Realm. Could you give the exact quote that leads you to think it's anything but this?

Eshonai is talking about these new rhythms that came when she assumed Stormform, which seems to be the result of a bond with Odium/Unmade/voidspren. Does this quote sound familiar to anything else in the cosmere? We know Odium was on Sel at one point and the Skaze seem to behave in an evil, influential way in their advisement of the Fjordell Empire, similar to these "new" rhythms Eshonai experiences on Roshar. Coincidence?

I didn't realize that the alloys of Lerasium had this function! So any Lerasium alloy turns a person into a Misting of the metal it's mixed with? Where could I find this WoB that says this?

I laughed when I thought you said "dual" monsters instead of "duel." If say Roshar is filled with dual monsters, since most of the life there exists in a symbiosis between creatures and spren!

I think part of her curse is that she is mentally immature. Likewise, I think she physically may not be developing at the same rate as other people: I'm pretty confident this is referring to her getting her first period, which is a sign of physical maturity. This wasn't supposed to happen in Lift's mind, as she asked not to change at all. I wonder if something has changed, and the change relates to the curse the Nightwatcher gave her. Perhaps the development blocker is starting to disappear?

My thinking is original Adonalisum spren, but I'm not sure how these original spren changed when Honor/Cultivation arrived. Odium seems pretty clear - red/black/smokey voidspren appeared that were not formerly there (or he corrupted original spren). Whether Honor/Cultivation have their own special spren makes sense (i.e. Syl is an Honorspren and Wyndle is a Cultivationspren). Interestingly, we seem to see something unique about honorspren and cultivationspren (Edgedancer Spoilers): @Argent probed Brandon a few years back about the Vessel of Cultivation, but I think the real meat of the WoB he got in return was Brandon's praise to his observation about spren: So, based on this, I think that the splinters of Honor (which likely came after he was killed) and the splinters of Cultivation (which came intentionally at some point at the direction of Cultivation's Vessel) are fusing together somehow to where both of their influence exists in a single spren. Now, are these spren also melting into the Roshar-Original Adonalsium spren? That I'm not sure. We do have these WoB from a few years ago: So I'm thinking that originally, the Parshendi/Listeners were of Adonalsium, but then sold out to Odium when Honor modeled how spren could bond with humans, causing these Adonalsium spren to leave the Parshendi. I think that they may have regained their current forms via Cultivation, whose intent would line up with a progression from parshmen (no form) to the more cultured Parshendi. Perhaps it was Cultivation's influence that convinced them to kill Gavilar in the first place, to prevent the return of Odium's influence?

I'd never thought about this idea, but is the metal itself that is consumed, or does burning the metal drain it of the power and then is excreted from the body in an unusable (no longer invested) form? That can't be the case, as metals are a focus of investiture rather than an object that contains it. So does this make Atium (and Lerasium AND Ettmetal/Harmonium) a strange rule breaker in that it actually is an invested object in the Physical Realm? Also, while the ratio of allomancers to metal deposits on Scadrial is, I'm sure, intentionally so that they would never run out of metal, however - perhaps over time (and with the introduction of new technology) this is what eventually drives the Scadrians off planet? Metal hunting? Unlike Atium geodes, I don't think steel or bronze work that way of natural recreation.

So as I'm listening through Words of Radiance, an interesting phrase jumped out to me: So we know there's a lot about the religious histories of Roshar that are still unknown, but some things we can surmise as facts: 1. The Unmade are real beings, splinters of Odium, and the gods of the Listeners/Parshendi. 2. These Unmade played a part in the desolations of the past on behalf of Odium. 3. As of The Way of Kings, one of the brightest and most learned scholars of the day (Jasnah) viewed the Unmade as fabrications of folklore (as the last desolation ended 4,500 years ago, leaving a lot of time for history to be skewed). So, isn't it strange that both the Parshendi (Eshonai) and a Human/Veden (Shallan) would use the exact same expression in reference to these creatures of supposed folklore? The Parshendi reference makes sense (the eyes of the Unmade are associated with voidspren that force Parshendi to do things against their will), but I'm not sure I understand Shallan's use of the phrase. Why would this idiom exist in both languages and cultures? Moving further into Words of Radiance, we get some insight from Mr. T's Diagram: So, do the Unmade just float around until something draws their attention, at which point they go Odium-Crap Crazy on things? Perhaps like other spren, they need a bond with life in the Physical Realm to think? Do they exist outside of desolations on Roshar in this strange mindless stage, but regain sentience as a desolation arrives? Could this be the religious teaching background that we don't quite have yet that could explain the strange culture-spanning idiom?

It's not really a joke as much an interesting use of the term "hunter." Considering Iyatil's heritage, it's funny to me in retrospect reading this passage knowing what we know now. Words of Radiance came out almost two years before we understood Iyatil's heritage and it's neat to see the inklings of how these stories connect throughout the years.

Did anyone else LOL when they read this in Words of Radiance, knowing Mraize said it as Iyatil JUST sat down right next to Shallan?

From this WoB, I believe that Adonalsium created the Listeners WAY back when and as part of the symbiotic life that permeates Roshar, Adonalsium intentionally splitnered off some of his power (i.e. "where he had left power") to bond with the various lifeforms there. After Adonalsium was splitnered into the 16 shards we know so well, the introduction of other shardic influences on Roshar messed up this natural Adonalsium-spren bond with the various life forms on the planet. If Odium's voidspren are viewed in this light, the Voidbringers (parshmen hijacked by unnatural spren) and things like Thunderclasts (maybe creatures like greatshells hijacked by unnatural spren?) are just a hijacking of the natural order of things on the planet. The spren-creature bond is a natural part of the Rosharian ecosystem, but when humans arrived with Honor/Cultivation/Odium, everything changed.

But if we've all been thinking of stick as a meme instead of a stick, wouldn't that change how the stick views itself?

Interesting! So without a spren-bond, the Listeners are just slaveform/parshmen - unable to think, unable to exercise free will. As the Listeners are native to Roshar, I wonder if they originally bonded with the spren of Adonalsium. When Honor/Cultivation arrived with humans, the spren fused with their influence perhaps? In doing so, the spren chose instead (or were bonded by Honor's influence) to bond with humans, leaving the Listeners without spren to bond, leaving them without the ability to think or act freely. Odium arrives and offers them spren bonds again, however the cost of said bonds is his ability to influence them. The Unmade and other spren of Odium bond with them and give them great powers, but at great cost. They regain some of their original forms, some of which seem unimportant to the Unmade/Odium: Workform Mateform Dullform Scholarform: "Beware its ambitions innate" - perhaps it was the scholarforms that came up with the plan to partner with Odium? Artform* Artform is mentioned twice in WoR and I'm curious as to why: This seems like a pretty straightforward description of what such a form would give to a Listener who bonded with it. However, we receive a second look at this stanza: Why does Brandon show us the "revised" stanza for artform specifically? Perhaps when the Listeners revised this verse, they realized that creationspren were something particularly important. Perhaps these spren are ancient and not mixed with Honor/Cultivation/Odium, but rather are of Adonalsium itself, which could return the Listeners to their original songs before they'd been used by Odium? Three forms specifically are said to have been used/claimed by the Unmade: Warform: "Claimed by the gods, given to kill" Nimbleform: "Gave the gods this form to many; tho' once defied, by the gods they were crushed" Mediationform: "when used by the gods it became instead forms of lies and desolation") Some of the forms seem to have been crafted by Odium, forms that the Listeners did not really want at all: Stormform: "Though its coming brings the gods their night, it obliges a bloodred spren; beware its end, beware its end" Nightform*: "As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered; a new storm will come" Decayform: "Destroys the souls of dreams; a form of gods to avoid it seems; seek not its touch, nor beckon its screams; deny it" Smokeform*: "Do we dare wear this form again? It spies; crafted of gods, this form we fear; by Unmade touch its curse to bear; formed from shadow - and death is near; It lies" Interestingly, both nightform and stormform are mentioned as being "formed from shadow," indicating some kind of link to their origin perhaps? Also, Smokeform is listed twice in WoR: And again: What was it about smokeform that required a second look, especially a look from the Song of Secrets? Perhaps at the time of the Song of Listing, the Listeners were welcoming the powers that Odium promised them, but later on when the Song of Secrets was written, they realize the curse this power brought with it.

Again, that's the beauty of the metaphor I see in the Biblical allusion to man and woman being united together as one, "the two become one flesh" as the Bible says in several places. Two physical beings do not physically merge into one being, and yet a relationship is greater than the sum of its parts. This third being of a relationship, the Unity two people create together, is how I believe Dominion and Devotion became the Dor. What of your theory @Yata? Where does it stand in light of the new information we've since learned from AU and WoBs?

I think the difference is that I suggest two Vessels were holding their singular combined power, which may have made it easier to splinter. Brandon just talks about the Dor as something singular and IIRC, I just saw a WoB that said the Dor is the only other "combined shard" like Harmony in the cosmere, though he said it wasn't complete (likely because this Dor shard had been shattered). As another interesting aside, the combined power of Devotion and Dominion on Sel is described as violent, unstable, and dangerous. Ettmetal, the metal of Harmony (the combined power of Preservation and Ruin) also has incredibly destructive properties. I wonder if there's something inherently dangerous and/or risky about combining shards that we don't know yet. Harmony is held by one of the most intelligent, perceptive, and reasonable beings we've seen in the cosmere, yet his metal is unstable. Perhaps Aona and Skai found the same problem with the Dor - incredible power, but unstable.

I've not seen much chatter as to the meaning of the various Nexus(s) or Seas on the Shadesmar map. Kuddos for posting something I haven't seen yet! It's an interesting alternative to the Broken Sky = Ashyn/Braize theory. Those four corners seem to refer to places further away, and yet Ashyn and Braize are close. With this, I think I agree!

Do you mean they saw the Everstorm? That also makes sense, but where have these nightforms been hiding in the days/months/years leading up to it? That which they whispered, that a new storm would come, sounds a lot like the Everstorm...if that's how we interpret "a new world to make." But what of the phrase "a new path to take?" What new path does the Everstorm offer the Listeners/Parshendi? They've already been slaves/tools of the Unmade/voidspren/Odium. What new path could these potential future seers see, unless influenced by something other than Odium and crew? Perhaps that this will be the last desolation, so Odium (and his tools) will have a new path forward that wasn't there formerly? Honor isn't around anymore, so I suppose that's possible too.