Djarskublar

Okay yeah. Agreed. Is this thread done now? Or is it going to move back on topic now that I'm done derailing it?

Hey since we are talking about Mr A's plan now... Why on Yolen does Frost think Hoid's meddling is a problem? If Adonalsium could plan tens of thousands of years into the future, and considering that Hoid was involved in the Shattering in some way by virtue of being there for it, why wouldn't his plan take into account his meddling? Stopping sounds more dangerous to that plan to me. Frost should be able to figure that out.

Maybe the special luck is something else and the bead is allowing him to buff it by storing the luck and tapping it in a burst to get an even better idea. So he doesn't need the bead, it is just convenient. Note: he isn't storing actual luck. Just to clarify for trolls and those who easily misunderstand.

Okay fair enough. I would bet that he would last as long as her at least though. He did survive his ordeal as a fallen Elantrian after all... well mostly. He could wait till she died and then immediately go try it. If he dies, he doesn't have her any more anyway. If he manages to ascend, then fantastic!

Well @Blightsong that isn't stictly true. My reading of that WoB lead me to believe that surgebinding was available to the Listeners the same as humans, just that nobody realizes it. Saying historically no is akin to saying that on Scadrial there were, historically, fewer metals. Technically, that's true. If you asked someone back then, they would give you a blank look if you started talking about speed bubbles. Doesn't mean there weren't Bendalloy Mistings. Aside from that, which as you say doesn't affect your theory, your stance holds up better under scrutiny. @Spoolofwhool Allomancy is about preserving your strength. Not sure how to link WoB especially since I'm on mobile, so here is a relevant partial quote, "So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift- allowing a person to preserve their own strength and rely upon the strength granted by the magic." (from the Reddit ama in 2011) Basically surgebinding isn't just of Honor, and Allomancy is about preserving the user's strength. And in the end, none of your points are really addressing the actual topic. Where does fabrial science come from, in your opinion? I agree with Blightsong that it doesn't fit any of the Shards, and that a bunch of life on Roshar appear to be using biological fabrials to pupate/change form. You say it comes from a Shard, but haven't specified one. You think Honor is Surgebinding, and Odium has Voidbinding, so does that leave Cultivation to fabrials? I think Blightsong's theory is far more meritorious than the idea of fabrials being of Cultivation, especially considering the high (i.e. basically guaranteed) probability that Cultivation is already involved with Surgebinding.

Okay then, if he was melding their cognitives, could it be possible to get a gold shadow that had a different allomantic power? AFAIK the power you get is random, so you could pull up a shadow that just had different luck. Then maybe you could pull some hackery to meld their power into your cognitive. Unfortunately, that's useless since you aren't rewriting your spiritweb, so now you would have literally caused yourself to go insane. You would believe that you had the power, but be unable to use it. This would be really hilarious in an 'I pity you' sort of way. Maybe you could use some other power to change your web to what you think it should be, but thinking about the ones we know of, only the healing surge (regrowth?) sounds like it could do that readily. I looked for WoB about gold healing spirit damage, but couldn't find anything explicit, only that it works on a similar principle to Stormlight, so maybe a gold Twinborn could do it. A super complex Aon could probably do it, but getting to an Elantrian is the trick. I don't think getting handed a whole bunch of breaths would do it. Stormlight can heal spirit wounds from Blades back to your cognitive baseline, so that is a point in this method's favor. I don't remember that part of AoL with Miles very well, so I'll take your description at face value. Sounds right from what I do remember. If that is right, this should work. Also, if this gold misting was Twinborn, they could get shadows of self that have different feruchemy powers... We got ourselves a non-Lerasium Fullborn formula people! The only questions are whether they would need a duralumin spike or not, if they could actually get a shadow that had different abilities, and if it would simply overwrite what power they had instead. Maybe this would work better if they were storing identity when they attempt it? This, at a guess, would probably twist you more than being made into an inquisitor. You are melding too many variations of your personality together. Still totally worth it ofc. Quick recap of the process for clarity's sake: gold Twinborn burns lotsa gold to become a savant. Possibly necessary steps of getting an Allomantic duralumin spike and maybe feruchemical alluminum or nicrosil. Burn gold until you pull up a shadow that is so different it had a different power potential at birth. Meld its cognitive perception of having that power into your own like Miles apparently could. Repeat until you have the cognitive perception of having all the powers. Depending on if gold could do it, either tap some compounded gold, or get a radiant to heal you to shift your spiritweb to that of your cognitive perception of having all the powers. You are now Fullborn. If savantism is all that is necessary to get the right cognitive melding and if gold healing is enough to shift your spiritweb like that, Miles could have done this with no Hemalurgy or Lerasium... Gold compounders just potentially got even more ridiculous.

I suppose it's possible, but I doubt Mr A had time to create all the Shardworlds he/she/it did and not have held on to the power too long.

Oh he is definitely using it for feruchemy in the mean time, but Elantrian is the end goal. Also I laughed the whole time I was reading your post @Spoolofwhool. Have an upvote.

I have been thinking somewhat recently about the ways to rewrite spiritwebs. Lerasium does stuff (I'll discuss that in a bit), Hemalurgy steals chunks of web, soulstamps kinda sheath your web with a temporary fake one, and Listener forms change stuff with physiology and skillsets. I theorize you could rewrite webs with fabrials, but I don't have a ton of evidence, and I don't want to go into it in this thread. Basically, we know that Hoid has some Lerasium. I have seen the theory that it is just being used for feruchemy, but I don't like that possibility. It also appears that he used a bit of his bead to make himself an Allomancer. That is probably a prerequisite for the idea I have. Basically, everyone has been looking at the WoB about Lerasium doing things nobody would know about in the wrong light. My theory is that Hoid is studying the Lerasium because he wants to use it to rewrite himself as an Elantrian. The wording of the WoB helps this theory. He says, "Were most Mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an Allomancer." Hoid is not 'most mistborn.' I now believe that Lerasium is able to do basically what Forgery does, only once you figure it out, the effects are permanent and can actually grant power. You could probably completely rewrite yourself if you had a big enough bead. Rewrite yourself into a Chasmfiend level of change, or any kind of magic user. He originally stole it to make himself an Allomancer, yes, but he still has some. I bet that he burned a piece of it, and immediately realized it's potential. In the mean time he may be using it for feruchemy, but I think he is studying it so that when he burns the rest of it, he can control it to rewrite himself in a way that makes him into an Elantrian. That sounds like the most useful use of that bead to me, plus he already tried to become an Elantrian once, he may be trying again. Given, he may want it for some other effect, I just think this is the most likely. Any counter evidence? Thoughts?

That's not quite what I meant, but yeah that'd be great too! I mean like having a fabrial used on you to rewrite your spiritweb and change what you are, like making a Hemalurgic construct or Soulstamping somebody. Hmmm... I've been thinking about writing up a post about spiritweb rewrites...

Nobody enjoyed the idea of Shattering the Tranquility? Seriously, we should suggest this to Brandon. That would be so funny, even if it isn't explicitly called tranquility in book, if that is the shard we could all share a laugh. Oh and @zeppomarks... You have seen the bit about the restaurant at the end of the cosmere, right?

Kandra can apparently have little mistwraith babies... How we don't know. Sazed put the spikes back in the Kandra. That is why they complain about holes in their memory in the newer books.

Well the best way to pump investiture into something: Breathe really hard on it. I wonder if you could grant your Breath to a gold shadow. Combined with a duralumin burn from a gold savant, that could be interesting. I still love the idea.

Or even better, pumping it with Investiture until it manifests in the physical realm... And you make it a gold shadow that has a different allomantic power than you... And then you spike it... I suppose theoretically if you pump enough Investiture into a shadow, it could gain its own sentience. And if you did something to attach it to a physical form somehow (think Alphonse in Fullmetal Alchemist), you would have golems of 'you' that could possibly be allomancers. I'm totally wigging out over this possibility. The things a gold savant could maybe do are so incredibly varied. It could spawn entire schools for training users, and different schools would teach different applications. Auugghhh we need to ask Brandon about this! Edit: actually that reference to Fullmetal Alchemist is more apt than I realized. I just remembered that Scadrial's worldbuilding is based partially on alchemy...

I really like @Blightsong's theory linked above. Check it out, it's definitely upvote worthy! If I take that theory to be true, it has many, many interesting implications. The ones relevant to my theory here need to be addressed. Jondesu could be right, and the way systems manifest could be somehow constrained by Mr A's influence. I kinda dislike that idea though. I still think Stormform is too powerful to just be another form though, so here goes another possibility. Forms and fabrials are the same thing, as implied by Blightsong's theory. They come from Mr A, and aren't a Manifestation of the Shards currently there. Surgebinding is somehow the individual Manifestation of both H/C and their combo magic at once... Makes some sense of you think that Honor's is Honorspren, Cultivation's is Cultivationspren, and all the mixed spren are actually the combo system. That sounds really wierd, so something similar to what Jondesu is saying may be happening here. Odium has voidbinding, which Sanderson defined as separate to surgebinding in that WoB. Stormform is so powerful because it grants access to something with voidbinding by virtue of bonding with a voidspren. The old magic is something funky and not a true manifestation, also as WoB. As an aside, does that means there are forms of power from the other shards too? Could a Listener gain access to a single suregebinding surge by bonding with a relevant spren? That accounts for all the powers. It ended up being similar to Spools theory, but accounts for fabrials better. Is something about like this what we want to go with for a full unified theory of Roshar?

I like this too, one thing: what are the implications if greatshells and Listeners are basically just living fabrials? Listeners get more variety in spren capture because they are sapient. Would it be possible to create a human fabrial? Kinda like spiking someone makes them a Hemalurgic construct. Crazy thought: what if Plate is just a person with the right fabrial used on them? Dump a ton of Investiture on a person by fabrial, and change their form so they can retain it. I don't think it likely by any means, but I could see something like this being possible. Hmmm... Implications.

Well, he is an Elantrian, and if she doesn't become one, he will far outlive her... He could totally do this after she dies of old age.

Then I guess that's another question for the database... Ugghhh that thing is massive enough already!

I wonder if people can grant Nightblood more breaths. That way, they wouldn't leak off because they were corrupted. It may be possible to upgrade your intelligent sword to not kill you when you use it! I always liked Nightblood. It is just the kind of intelligent sword that D&D players hate to have around. That is some seriously powerful ego!

Sooo... I was reading the thread from a while back about how gold savants would be better at Forging themselves. That was interesting enough, but then I saw the comment that reminded me about how Vin physically interacted with one gold shadow. That got me wondering about what gold shadows can actually do. On to funny things! Disclaimer for new people: this next paragraph is a joke! Reckoners and Legion aren't cosmere! It is now clear to me that Megan and Stephen Leeds are gold savants. Stephen has a question... ask a gold shadow! Megan needs a distraction? Send a gold shadow that appears to have fire manipulation! The similarity between these powers is striking, though! And I thought Lightweaving was a common Brandon magic system! Now on to serious things. I wonder how closely a gold savant could mimic Megan's power. Could a savant possibly get their shadow to interact with the physical world? Summoning an army of gold shadows and slaying your opponents is a very interesting possibility. Other people suggested learning skills from them: cool. Getting them to do stuff for you so you can be lazier than Breeze: cooler. And imagine what a Lerasium Mistborn as a gold savant could do with a duralumin burn! Any idea if this would work at all?

Okay THAT bit about Listener forms I can fully accept as possible, and while I don't agree it's the case necessarily, I can respect that opinion. It has solid grounding. My reasoning for it needing to be a Manifestation for void forms at the minimum, and probably for normal forms too, is textual. There is no way the stormforms could have summoned an Everstorm without some Shardic stuff going on with them. It was too... Odious (technically that means something a bit different but hey, it sounds good). I could accept them throwing lightning as 'natural,' but it's a stretch. That's pretty powerful stuff for just being an outflow of natural bonds with spren... Besides that, Odium was influencing Eshonai into doing the things she was doing once she was in stormform. That is very similar to what Ruin does to Hemalurgic constructs. I could accept him influencing her somewhat through his spren that is bonded to her, but unless it's his Manifestation she is using, I don't think he could take control like that. I can see things like Mateform or Workform as natural to the species, but power forms at the least are not in the same weight class. If my guess is right about Honor's manifestation, then perhaps changing forms changes your spirit to a point where you are skilled in a certain thing. Like having your soul Forged, and for Stormform, that skill is summoning Everstorns (and throwing lightning). Surgebinding is definitely a hybrid system. You Cultivate and then Honor a bond with a spren for access to TWO surges. Accessing two surges isn't really evidence I guess, but still. I don't think it could be one Shard's system if it uses a spectrum of spren like it does. Not when there are Honorspren and spren purely of Cultivation involved. I have considered the possibility that if Kal had bonded a Cultivationspren instead, we could very well be discussing how surgebinding is of Cultivation, and that since Honor is Shattered, he is only tangentially involved. Our thinking has definitely been colored by the characters we have seen. I don't think voidbinding is a subset of surgebinding, it's more like an amendment. Surgebinding was created when H/C both invested, it's just that the spren didn't bond with anyone because they either felt no inclination to do so, or didn't realize they could, until they saw the Heralds. When Odium invested, the combo system of surgebinding was amended. Since Odium's Intent was not compatible with the existing system, voidbinding was created as a separate yet related and similar system. We don't know anything about voidbinding beyond that it is a thing, though, so I don't want to speculate here as to what it does.

Thanks for necroing, I didn't know about this thread before. I like your point about ruling the world. I would rephrase it slightly, as there may have been corruption of the phrase by the priests. I would say "when he has Dominion over the whole world." it sounds better that way And on the subject of extremely large Aons... Death star? Semi-serious joke aside, I like the idea of a large Aon collecting the Dor into a state where it could be called a Shard again. Although another thing to consider is that if the Dor is sentient, then you could have the power struggle of the ages trying to Ascend. On the subject of the Dor grooming Raoden for Ascension, one point of evidence is that he is a king with Dominion over many, but he is also Devoted to serving their interest. A solid mix for taking up Unity.

@zeppomarks I seem to be replying to all your posts... It's not that they can't make more kandra, just that they don't want to kill people to do it. Simple as that.

They scream because they are 'dead.' The Radiants abandoning their oaths killed the spren's sapience sorta... Dunno how to explain that. The measurements may still apply though. That would explain why they are all in Blade form. They were measured when in that state. I don't think it's likely, but I like the idea. Good thinking.

@zeppomarks well one thing that should be made clear, there were Allomancers pre TLR. Just in the way that SoScads have Allomancers. They were very rare, and not super powerful. Feruchemists were also not exactly common. (does anyone know if every feruchemist back then was full, or if Ferrings have been a thing all along and nobody realized it). Hemalurgy was also always a thing, but people didn't discover it by accident... why would they? And the Shards weren't talking.