Djarskublar

I agree that the Listener forms were already a thing. I said earlier they could probably change form, but it was rare without a shard invested. I don't think that form magic qualifies as a major magic, but it does as a manifestation. It isn't major from an authorial viewpoint, anyway. The void forms will matter, but not Honor's forms. In the end, your contention is that Cultivation isn't invested enough to have a Manifestation of Investiture. Considering that she is comboing into surgebinding, she is AFAIK involved with the Old Magic, she is affecting the crem and purelake, and there are spren of her, I simply can't agree with that.

I don't classify old magic that way either, but you are forgetting fabrials. Where do they come from if not from one of the two of them? Odium? He's already getting void forms and voidbinding for Hoids sake! What more does he need?! No, there definitely has to be at least something going on here. If you want to accept that both surgebinding and fabrials are combo systems, then you just have to say that the 'good' forms are from all the way back when Mr A created them. They had to come from somewhere after all. Void forms are "forms of power" that Odium is causing. But that doesn't make a ton of sense. Odium is also the source of voidbinding, why should he get a full manifestation of investiture for the Listeners, but also something akin to surgebinding? If you accept that surgebinding and fabrials are both combos, then Odium should just have void versions of those or his own system from the forms, and none of this nonsense about multiple systems. Basically, if you accept voidforms as Odium personal power, and voidbinding as the combo deal with him getting a sorta addition to surges, why nothing with fabrials as well? I could see an argument that Sel is different because all the power is mixed up in the CR. Perhaps it all got stirred together after their shattering. Then there is only one super powerful cognitive storm there, and it powers one system. The thing is, we dont have a 'typical' case of a system with 2+ shards. Scadrial was created by R+P, and Brandon said that makes things funny there. D+D are Shattered, and the power is doing funky stuff in the CR. Honor is Shattered, and Odium invested later, which may or may not have an effect. There isn't anything we can point to and say 'hey that's normal, compare it to that.' My bet is that since Cultivation is still intact, surgebinding remains relatively unchanged. I would guess that more Stormlight is available from Highstorms now that Honor is Shattered, but that is a planet wide thing not just a surgebinding buff. I posit that the system is most likely to be as I described before. Forms are Honor's. Fabrials are Cultivation's. Voidforms are Odiums. Bindings (void and surge) are the combo system. Nothing else adds up unless you are willing to swap forms and fabrials, which I could be talked into.

That's what is so confusing though. By the way, you did misunderstand one thing about my last post, Nahel bonding is surgebinding like Kal does, but your wording suggests either you believe, or that you think I believe that they are separate. I said at the end that Nahel bonding was possible LONG before any spren figured it out and tried it. Basically, surgebinding must be the combo system of Roshar, akin to feruchemy. Nobody realized that it would be a thing though. If the Shards knew, they weren't telling. The Heralds are probably just some cool people from back when the desolations first started that Honor (and probably Cultivation too, considering that they were granting the combo system) decided to heavily invest to make immortal. Then they also gave them Honorblades. The spren then realized that they could do something similar. That is a pure guess about the Heralds, though. One other thing. That WoB you quote has a TON of wiggle room. First he says it depends on how you count them, and then he also says it's only the major ones. It could easily be argued that form magic isn't that big a deal. The form magic we have seen basically just boosts a certain skill set all the time. Kinda on par with a permanent pewter or tin burn, without side effects because the magnitude isn't as great. It is probably the least flashy power set we've seen. Hence it's not a major one he counts. Now in this post you specifically said you agree that they have the combo system and one each. So what are those systems? Surgebinding is the combo obviously. Anyone disagree with that? There is void stuff of Odium. Sanderson said the Old Magic is something else. My bet is that it's basically Cultivation's Vessel screwing with people via the Nightwatcher because she is heartbroken and bored. Then we just have fabrials as a Manifestation left, but two systems to account for. Unless it's somehow also a combo system, and the two of them are basically responsible for two half systems. Based on what we saw on Scadrial, I think that is unlikely. That means we have a manifestation of Investiture unaccounted for. The only other magic we know of is form magic. Considering that the Stormfather talks to Eshonai when she is trying to shift to stormform, I figure that there is a fair chance the system is of Honor. Also, as I said before, enslaving spren to fabrials doesn't sound like something that could come from Honor's intent.

That sounds right. I would definitely be willing to help convert what is happening over to a screenplay. The real question is if we cut out cosmere only things, like the purelake 17th shard interlude. Well @Darkness Ascendant I guess it's up to you to see if there are licensing issues.

I like this one too. I particularly like how Adolin ends up with the parshendi. I like Shallan x Adolin as well, but Adolin x Eshonai would be hilarously awesome too! We even know that 'works' because horneaters are a mix of human and parshendi. I'm not WW, I don't have a Renarin complex, so I don't think I would use him as much. I like him as is. Still, he should get some POV. It would be hilarious to see Eshonai go to mateform later because of him. She hates it so much.

Granted, but while experimenting with the power, you accidentally make a family member into an epic, and they summarily kill all your family and friends... That's not even the curse, just you getting what you wished for. Your curse is that your voice is permanently really LOUD. Earthshakinly so, to proclaim the calamity about to be among men. I wish for a consistent, healthy amount of sleep (healthy as in no African Sleeping Sickness shenanigans please).

All right, so I suck at Theoryland. I am going to try to explain my reasoning for who is in charge of what system. Basically after going back and reading it again, I realize how silly the bit about how they came to the system is. That was meant as a possible scenario that would set up the systems how I think they work. I retract that part, as a story. Also, some revision is going in based on information I gained because of this discussion. Basically, I realized that fabrials, surgebinding, and forms were the three magic present that had non void aspects. (i.e. there are void forms and voidbinding, but there are non void forms of those.) Basically, surgebinding didn't even really exist as far as I can tell before the Heralds. There is a low chance they we're created when the two invested, but that is doubtful. How lame would a magic system be that could only ever have 10 immortal practicioners? The shards invested in a planet, not ten people, after all! My bet from that premise was that surgebinding in Herald form came about because of Odium doing things. They needed something cool to fight him, and they created the Heralds to do that. That means the systems that were actually present after the two invested were forms and fabrials. AFAIK (possible headcanon, please correct if wrong) fabrials enslave a spren to a fabrial. That doesn't sound like an Honor-able thing to do, so that left that it was Cultivations. It doesn't really fit any of the three intents well if you ask me, so this is what I went with. Forms probably existed from when Adonalsium created the Listeners. I have hypothesized for a while that the Rythmns are like cosmic radio noise, and the listeners atTUNE their cognitive 'radio' to hear them. This is the only species that Mr A created to be able to do this that we know of, so if a human could attune them, they could use form magic. However, Listeners are the only ones who can use this magic by virtue of being the only known species able to attune the Rythmns. Honor's Investing at this point, by process of elimination, is the patron of form magic. I don't know what Honor Investing did to form magic, but I can make a wild but possible guess: Listeners could before only have one form... usually. There would be rare cases of form magic shifing them. They could all attune all of the Rythmns. There were probably fewer forms too. After Honor invested, something changed to make it easier for listeners to form the bond with spren for a transformation. More forms were probably available too. We know far too little about void magic for me to want to post too many guesses about the what's up with Odium. Basically I think his magics are just addendums to the others. That's just what it looks like to me. I have no real attachment to the idea since I have no concrete evidence. That help clarify what I'm talking about? One final note: I believe that Nahel bonding was possible LONG before any surgebinders were even twinkles in their mother's eyes. It was a natural outflow of both of them investing, similar to feruchemy. It was just that nobody on Roshar knew about it. Not even the spren.

Who knows? Sanderson, but there are better questions. We don't know much about nicrosil except that it works... Sometimes.

I believe you on that first point, but can you put up the quote? I haven't seen that one. And I REALLY suck at looking up WoB. That's part of why I have so little sourcing in the post. I'm gonna get some quotes once I'm off work. For your second, I wouldn't say any of the systems except surgebinding make any sense for any of the shards. This just got my guesses better. It could easily be the other way around, with Cultivation being the source for forms and Honor the source for fabrials. Odium likely has something for all the power sets, but we haven't seen the void version of Soulcasting... if it's even different at all. For your third point, any knowledge they had (I agree they knew a lot) was still theoretical. There is a difference, for example, between knowing how guns work and being accurate at shooting them. As TLR shows, you still need other kinds of knowledge as well to be a good Vessel. I'm sure they picked it up quickly, but there was still room for early mistakes. I'll post a response to spool later... Gotta work! I'll try to find relevant WoB too... Uggghhhh I'm bad at that though.

Alrighty, good points all. It was late and getting later, so yeah low evidence. I think the biggest thing everyone didn't like was Soulcasting. We know it's one of the surges, that doesn't interfere at all. I'm talking about the kind the ardents do with the fabrials. Those are ancient. My theory is that they are what cultivation personally powers. Other fabrial tech is like the Nahel bond. Its a hack, only from humans rather than spren. Something funky is happening to those ardents who use their soulcaster for a while. I didn't see any evidence that that was happening to people who use other fabrials regularly. Plus there is Shallan's conversation asking if any soulcasters are real after she finds out Jasnah's is fake. Her surge covered it, she didn't need a real soulcaster. On the other hand soulcasters appear to be much older than other fabrial tech. My guess is that humans mimicked them in an attempt to create more Plate and Blade. That is the goal of modern artifabrians after all. So clarification on Investing. Yeah they came together, but Cultivation was herding cattle (humans) and took a while to get there. Honor Invested and gave power to the locals, the Listeners, powering up their primitive form magic. Cultivation showed up with humans and invested, and this made basic soulcaster fabrials available for everyone. At this point one of two things is the case. Cultivation powers all fabrial tech, or just soulcasters while other fabrials are an anomaly like the Nahel bond. My bet is that it's just the soulcasters, or we would have seen much more established fabrial tech. Also, the Listeners do have soulcasters. They mention that is why they fight for the gemhearts. On the other hand, I don't think we see any other fabrials from them. Sorry I forgot to at least mention fabrials, it was a big OP. At this point I doubt anyone understood what they were doing well. Adonalsium had very recently Shattered, so they had the same amount of experience as Sazed, but without any copperminds or Shardic history to go off of. There is no way the history extends to pre-Shattering, or Sazed would be more aware of stuff outside Scadrial. That is justification for why they invested so oddly. They didn't know any better. As with the various types of Lightweaving, the fact that Soulcasting is a surge as well is irrelevant. It is accomplished in a different manner. Finally, we dont know how Investing works mechanically, and what Shards can or can't do to each other directly. I bet Odium deceived the Selish Shards, and that let him Shatter them, whether immediately or later I couldn't say. So that is why I just presented a scenario that may work. As with Atium becoming one of the 16 metals, Odium piggybacked Honor's form magic and the new Herald's surgebinding to cause voidforms and voidbinding. My guess is that Honor let him in uncontested, but not unconditionally. He saw that as the right thing to do. It gave him a better chance of surviving Shardic combat that he had less experience in, while limiting Odiums influence on other Shardworlds. How that works... no idea. But that is the only possibility for what the Oathpact is that makes any sense. Odium may also have granted access to Soulcasting fabrials for his creations, dunno either way. No text for that. Better now? I agree it has some weak links, but on the whole it is a cohesive theory. I came up with this while trying to reconcile the Oathpact with how the magic is set up and what the focus could be. Edit: added one thing about Listener soulcasters.

First off, sorry if this belongs over in SA forum, but this is really a realmatics post, and I wanted more exposure to stimulate more discussion. An admin is free to move it if they feel the need. First off, some groundwork. We know humans aren't native to Roshar, they immigrated, probably with a Shard. Listeners are native, and presumably made by Adonalsium. We know Odium came to Roshar after Honor and Cultivation. Now to present a bunch of theories that work well together in this. The focus of Roshar is the bonds with spren, not oaths or spren themselves. Odium doesn't really have his own system, he didn't Invest enough for that, he just sorta jacked the systems Honor was involved with. Cultivation Invested after Honor, but not long after. Soulcasting is Cultivations system, listener forms are Honor's, and surgebinding is the mixture system (like feruchemy is the third system on Scadrial). That previous is the weakest theory of the theories. The Rythmns predate Honor Investing. How this all ties together?... It's story time! In the beginning Go...Adonalsium creates Roshar and the Rythmns and Listeners. There are a few spren, and there is limited hive mind communication between the Listeners via the Rythmns. Form magic is limited in style and scope. Perhaps one to three forms type deal. Adonalsium gets Shattered. Honor comes to Roshar and Invests, boosting form magic to what we see today (minus void forms). A few more spren are created. Cultivation is in hot (and bothered ;)) pusuit, and brings some humans with her. She invests and Soulcasting becomes available to everyone. With a soulcaster you are slowly changed into something inhuman like Adolin sees in a similar manner to becoming a savant. Even more spren species are created, as the few spren of Cultivation aren't all, we get the mixture-of-the-two spren. Humans can't use form magic because they weren't created to be able to attune the Rythmns, but Listeners can use Soulcasting because Cultivation invested when both species were around. There are Highstorms at this point, but they are much weaker and don't provide nearly the same amount of Stormlight. Things are dandy for a while, then Odium comes along. Honor and Cultivation would win in a dukes fest, but not by much. Odium says "little shards, little shards let me Invest in!" Honor replies, "not by the hair of my shardy chin chin!" Odium then threatens to go Shatter other shards first then come for the two of them. Honor realizes it wouldn't be right not to protect the others, and comes up with his plan. He tells Odium that to make it a fair contest, they would let mortals do the fighting. Honor lets Odium partially invest. Enough to give him power there but not enough to power a whole new system, while also limiting his influence elsewhere. Odium accepts and the Oathpact is partially complete. Honor and Cultivation create the Heralds and sugebinding, but it's just those ten people. Odiums power just influences the systems of Honor, since the Oathpact is with him. The Heralds are created at this point or some short time before, so Odium gets voidbinding for his Unmade, and he adds new spren to create new listener Forms. The Oathpact is complete. At this point things are hazy history wise, but irrelevant. The spren figure out Nahel bonding. Stuff happens and Honor is Shattered. This sounds fairly far fetched, but explains a lot if taken together. The spren bond as a focus makes sense and accounts for problems with other proposed foci. You Cultivate and then Honor the bond with words and actions for surgebinders. You do some unknown ritualistic stuff to prepare for Form change, then go into a Highstorm and hope the right spren shows up. You form a bond with it and change form using the Highstorm's Light as fuel. (skipping some stuff here and everywhere obviously) You Honor an intent through attunement of a Rythmn as part of the process. We don't know much about Soulcasting, but I would bet they are doing something Cultivationy with a spren to enact a change. No Shadesmar for them, though, I would guess. That covers the ultra basics of this. I can flesh it out tomorrow, but it's late and I have work, so this will have to do. Have at me!

That isn't supported by evidence. The Blade fuzzes as it goes through living flesh. It is cutting the soul, not the body. There isn't a mark a modern forensic scientist could find other than some odd burns. No cuts. All that changes once something is no longer alive. Besides, I doubt it's just that their spine is cut. It's killing a few major organs regardless of where it cuts their torso, and the spine just clinches the deal. The sweeping strokes of Blade combat make it so that you won't get just a spine cut.

Ah, but monotheistic fantasy just isn't as interesting. Either He/She/It picks a side, which sucks, or it doesn't actually do anything, which is pointless. If It picks a side it's either the 'hero defeats God' trope which is usually shoddily done with lots of Douche ex Machina (pun intended), or the 'God chosen hero' which is just boringly predictable. Polytheistic fantasy, on the other hand, is great! Try some Dragonlance, for example.

Fair enough goody, but there was Adonalsium at one point, which was at least 16x more powerful than a shard. Shards really aren't all THAT buff

This is interesting, but there will likely be some legal issues. If Brandon has already sold the rights to a video version of SA then they have the rights, not him. They are MUCH more likely to pursue legal action. If he hasnt, or if the option will expire soon, go for it. Plan it all you like, just don't produce anything until you are sure someone else doesn't have the rights. I'll be keeping an eye on this. I'd do some voice acting, but I'm not gonna sign up until I know if there are going to be legal issues. Wish I could animate... That's the long tough part. I'll get rich and buy some real animators! Problem solved! Oh, I would also be interested in storyboarding and scripting stuff.

Okay. You changed my mind. Lucky you are speaking with someone open minded! Your points are all solid, and I have no refutation, so you have changed my opinion. Gratz!

Agreed, especially considering that a bunch, if not all, of the religions Sazed mentioned ended up being important to what he did at the end with changing Scadrial. On the other hand, Brandon has said he won't say what happens in the Great Beyond to not trample on anyone's beliefs in real life, so chances aren't great that it will be that cosmerically significant. So I guess I like the idea, but don't think it's likely.

Well technically they DO have a soul. Just a really tiny one... Everything has an aspect in all three realms. On the other hand, I agree with both of your points. Good thinking Mason, and solid corrections Spool. And Spool, Lightsong (that is his name, right?) saw a vision of the future before Returning, and seeing the difference he could make if he did Return was the reason he assented to doing so. Also, the dreams he recounted to his priests actually were mildly prophetic. Just not useful prophesies.

Fair enough. I was being sarcastic with the minor bit of murder thing. I thought it was funny... Oh well. I think the Codes are a bigger deal to him, apparently. He had that moment where he realized the lighteyes are a bunch of fops, and decided the Codes were necessary and good. He bucked up and quit complaining about them then. While I agree he still doesn't like having to follow them, I do things that are necessary yet distasteful. Weeding comes to mind XD. I wouldn't say killing Sadeas won't affect him. It obviously Snapped him (hehe I noticed the similarity between becoming Radiant and an Allomancer a while ago) but he is more humble after the duel and almost dying on the Tower. So I don't expect the jealousy problems with his family other people are predicting. Plus he has a supportive girlfriend now. One thing to note: what Adolin did to Sadeas is remarkably similar to what Kaladin almost did to Elhokar. Except if he is an edgedancer, he was remembering the lives lost on the Tower that Sadeas forgot/ignored, and trying to heal Alethkar. I humbly accept your point about whose flashback book it is not being that big a deal. I do enjoy reading all the characters. I remember the first time through WoK I was pissed whenever a chapter ended because I didn't want to change POV. I wanted MORE and NOW... It was too good if such a thing is possible. I have no opinion as yet on whether Nalan will come for him.

I don't think C... Don't know how to spell that... has anything to do with the Radiants. My bet is that it kinda does what Sazed does with wax. C guides those who died in the last day on to the next existence. We see their faces as it deals with each. Assuming it goes through 60 faces a second (enough to see each, but no more as Axies notes) it can go through a few thousand people in a minute. Assuming because of the size of the Alethi armies (approx 10k a piece) and assuming fairly standard rates on the ratio of soldiers to citizens... Extrapolating from the population of Alethkar to the rest of the continent, there can't really be more than 100 million people alive. Especially considering how inefficient their farming methods appear to have to be. Assuming C sticks around flashing faces for 15 minutes (IIRC that is about how long it shows up every day) that is around 50k people a day. Or one in 2000 people a day. That's too many, so maybe my estimations are off. If it was one in 20,000 that would be reasonable. That's a lifespan of over 50 years assuming no infant mortality. I can see my Fermi estimation being off by a factor or two of ten that was some really quick and dirty estimation, even for Fermi estimation.

If him finally getting his blade to heal happens in a non spectacular way, like people are guessing may happen, I think Adolin will take his circumstances very well. He has always behaved in a relatively mature manner. I don't think his family all being Radiants and him murdering Sadeas will be a big deal emotionally. He just doesn't have the chronic depression of Kal, the childhood trauma of Shallan, or the untold dark past of Dalinar. He may not like losing the spotlight, but he is a good guy. My bet is that he will confess to killing Sadeas, but construe events to get himself out of serious repercussions. This IS Dalinar's book after all, not Adolin's. People are all hung up on him, but our Sand Man is too good an author to share the fixation. I just want to see Eshonai come back to us normal style as a workform or something. I doubt she is dead. He may have had serious problems if the stuff happening now had happened at the start of WoK, but he is a full man now. He accepted the Codes (which this thread has ignored so far), he went to prison, and he lost the Thrill. While I wouldn't say he was spoiled ever, he was kinda an arrogant bastard to start off. He knows how good he is, but he had his delusions that he was the best shattered by a certain bridgeboy. Now he is a decent fellow all the way. Besides that minor bit of murder. I disliked Adolin at first, but now he's a good character. Anyone else think his acceptance of the Codes was actually the true first step? If he is a protoEdgedancer, that could have been him realizing that the lighteyed society had forgotten the little people, and that the Codes were there to keep you in line rather than partying away your money and dignity.

Granted, but you are now Grandpa Smedry, and never arrive in time to actually help. I wish to be caught up on these forums!

Ask a real Sanderson to do it, for I am unworthy! Jokes aside, that sounds pretty good actually. I would have similar plot, but have Kal's family accept him. I would focus less on Ialai and Adolin and more on Dalinar and Elhokar. Many of the things you describe have a good chance of actually happening.

Character: Lift without question. She has some sick potential hacks with Hemalurgy. Plus she is just fun to read. Manifestation: Hemalurgy. When was the last time you read a series where anybody could create a new species with magic? Plus Hemalurgy is THE method for most hackery. Others are flashier, but Hemalurgy can literally steal your thunder. Series is obviously SA. It's the best written. And while we don't understand the magic yet, we know there are mechanics that make sense. Guessing those is half the fun after all!

It's called rob RAPE and pillage for a reason. I can see mixed blood kids being born. Whether it's even possible, dunno. I bet they can have kids in void forms, but whether the kids are fertile is another question. If horneaters are a thing, no reason a couple physiology changes HAVE to make void forms impotent with humans.