hoser

Begging to differ ... Renarin's fits do not coincide with fighting in tWoK. He has one around when Dalinar is having the Recreance vision sitting through a highstorm, He has another apparent fit when Navani is making the huge glyph in Sadeas's warcamp. He charges in without having a fit when they are fighting the chasmfiend. I don't understand the triggers, but it doesn't seem to be the presence of fighting. Edit: removed nonsense

The timing of Honor's shattering relative to the Recreance is a matter of some debate. This is not to argue one way or the other, but just to expose soome of the reasons for either side. The Recreance vision is an argument for the splintering being post-Recreance. Not all the visions are of the past relative to Tanavast recording them. As he says in chapter 75 of tWoK: The final vision seems clearly to be of the future, so it seems possible that the Recreance vision is of the future relative to the recordings. The Recreance vision is obviously less fantastic than the final vision, but it could be in the near future, which Tanavast could have seen with greater precision. The epigraph at the beginning of Chapter 2 of tWoK (Chapter title: Honor is Dead) seems to be from the POV of a Radiant and suggests that the Shattering occurred pre-Recreance:

In tWoK, Kalak describes the seven blades in a circle. He doesn't describe his own or Jezrien's. After describing the other swords, he narrates that Jezrien sticks his in the circle. Another possibility is that Jezrien's sword was always smaller. Szeth describes it as "smaller (not shorter) than most others". So it is not even uniquely small.

I have three issues with Szeth, but I guess that Brandon needed him to do things for the plotting. Whatever he was punished for. If he had the strength of his convictions, then don't accept the punishment. If he is not convinced, then don't tell the Shamanate they're wrong. Letting himself get talked into continuing his murder spree by Taravangian without checking the facts. In the climactic battle, there is a pitched battle with Voidbringers. He could not have missed that. Either he was with the Alethi already and he would have heard about it or he flew in and would have seen the Voidbringers. Either way, he knows that the Voidbringers were back and the Shamanate were wrong in their sentence. The final attack on Dalinar makes no sense. That said, he seems interesting and with his rebirth his actions should make more sense. I'm sure Brandon will create a fascinating story.

Nice work bringing all this together! The quotes are great. Where did you get that the Hierocracy started 500 years before the events of tWoK? It doesn't jump out at me from the quotes. The Hierocracy could have started long before that and only tried to conquer the world 500 years previous to tWoK events. Natanatan is one of the biggest riddles in my mind. An understanding of the sequencing of those events would really help understnding the overall timeline. What happened there? I see any of the following as possible. Plains shattered at Aharietam. Kingdom survives somehow and functions well enough to be a strong ally following the Recreance. Then the kingdom falls for some other reason and some survivors form New Natanatan. Plains shattered after Aharietam. Kingdom survives somehow and functions well enough to be a strong ally following the Recreance. Then the kingdom falls for some other reason during the Hierocracy and some survivors form New Natanatan. Post-Recreance plains shattering leads to kingdom failing and the formation of New Natanatan. The quote from Navani implies that the plains were shattered at Aharietam, which would imply option 1. I doubt this, as Natanatan would have had to survive as a strong kingdom for a long period after the Shattering of the plains. From what we have seen, the Shattering had to have been devastating. If Natanatan had survived the shattering until, say, the fall of the Hierocracy, there would be newer structures. Most notably, had there been a post-shattering Natanatan, there would be remnants of bridges. There would probably be the remnants of a city somewhere where the effects of the Shattering would not have been so debilitating. The other problem with the first two scenarios are how a kingdom could survive the shattering and why it would fall later. When I consider the vagueness of the histories and the cultural changes, I believe the Recreance to have been further back. I think it was two to four millenia previous. Consider: Vorinism and the segregated gender roles seem to follow the Recreance. The Knights are both male and female and function outside of the Vorin roles. The interesting question for me is whether the Knights knew that the Heralds were lying and what they did about it. Their purpose was to protect against desolations. If they believed the Heralds, then there would be no reason to continue after Aharietam. If not, then why quit? I believe there is WoB that H survived Aharietam. The knights should have been able to communicate w/H and get the truth that we had not won, the Heralds were running loose and more Desolations could come. The Silver Kingdoms were stable and used Dawnchant. The modern language of Alethkar is different and no-one can even translate the Dawnchant any more. The modern era dates back 1173 years. There was apparent chaos following the Recreance. If the Recreance was 1200 years previous, we would not have a calendar dating back so close to the chaos. Wouldn't there have to have been a stable society first before a new calendar was established? I agree w/the OP's contention that the new calendar would have been adopted as a "positive but boring" starting point. With Recreance, chaos, stable society, positive event that restarts calendar, 1500 seems like the latest possible time to Recreance. But there could have been several calendar systems that began and ended since the Recreance.

Beautiful and hilarious! I would replace 5 and 6 with more detail. 4.1 H+C each pick out 5 Heralds of gender matching their own. H makes the Oathpact w/them. H+C invest them and give them swords. Odium picks out a set of creatures that he invests and unmakes. 5 H+C, the heralds and humans still lose, having to flee to Roshar. New, smarter spren appear or are created. H+C create Shinovar and/or the Dawncities. The Nightwatcher practices the "old magic." 5.1 Odium and his unmade come to Roshar with periodic desolations. 5.2 The new spren copy the Heralds and make surgebinders, who evolve into Radiants. The "new magic". Urithiru is created and there are 10 stable Silver Kingdoms. *Cue golden age* 5.3 Odium makes spren that allow his team to control the Listeners. 5.4 The heralds and/or Odium decide to change things up. All but one of the Heralds stay on Roshar. Odium works on currupting things more subtly. O shatters H. The Radiants quit, deliberately leaving behind certain remnants. *cue spacy but disturbing atonal muzak* 6.1 Odium decides it's time/Taln finally breaks. Spren start coming back. *cue Everstorm*

from ch. 89: I interpret this to be saying: The Everstorm is new. It has never occurred before. Parshendi will take on multiple different voidbringer forms. The epigraphs include references to other forms related to the "Old gods." Nightform (ch 23), decayform (ch. 24) and smokeform (ch 25) are referred to. I believe these forms are also voidbringer forms. Mediationform (ch. 21) is used by the gods for "lies and desolation." I believe that we will see these forms in smaller numbers. Stormform seems at least as effective as warform and maintains Odium's dominance, so I think it will still predominate.

This is certainly a possibility. But there are others. The struggle I have with this is that we don't really know the relative capacity. At third Oath Kaladin is referred to as being much brighter, but at second oath, not so much. When he heals at the king's palace in the warcamp, he is not fully charged, IIRC. It seems awkward for Szeth not be able to heal shardblade wounds unless he is fully charged, but not have it limited by charging in Kaladin's case. This discussion seems to be leading to a unified shardhealing theory and special cases kind of ruin it, IMO. The other possibilities I see are: Szeth was told that it can't be healed, but he has never tried it and it does heal it. I don't like this one. The Stone Shamans have had these things for centuries to millenia and would have had experience. They seem to have trusted Szeth w/all the information and training they had. The infusing and shardhealing are abilities of the Nahel surgebinders. They mimic the abilities of the Heralds. Heralds could have an independent shardhealing ability that doesn't come from the Honorblades (there is WoB that Heralds are special w/out the blades and they don't seem to age). So when a non-Herald weilds an Honorblade, no shardhealing. This is interesting. An inherent Heraldic shardhealing seems either synergistic or redundant with the relive on death ability they already have. I don't know if this makes sense. The Heralds can't shardheal even with an Honorblade. I don't like this one either, as the Heralds seem like they should be more powerful than single Radiants.

Good creative thinking. I like it! Two possible concerns: Why would the Radiants trust the voidbringers? Once they are gone, they are not coming back. The Voidbringers are still around. Even more if the Parshendi can't avoid the change. I think that the consequences of oathbreaking must have been known at that point. Some number of knights must have stumbled as Kaladin did.

To be a bridgeman, you pretty much have to have been a bridgeman before, a prince or one of the Lopen's cousins. They are trusted to not be infiltrated by Sadeas' assassins because of the history. I think temporarily joining the ardentia at Urithiru and helping w/tech would gain me the most credibility. Eventually, I could imagine getting Navani's ear if I thought I could be helpful. Between the Voidbringers, the Everstorm and the tender mercies of the Diagramists, I don't think I would want to be anywhere else. After the way they unleashed Szeth on the world, I don't feel any need to warn the Shamanate if I even could get through their layers of ignorance.

Quibbles: As king said above, based on lack of information, the diagram can be wrong (Garbage In, Garbage Out, as computer programmers say). It seems possible that the Diagram may have always lacked so much information that it has been actively harmful to surviving the desolation from day 1. The goal, assuring humanity's survival, may not even be the best one, as it might be better to take on more risk of losing in order to get a better outcome (prevailing against Odium, for example). With incomplete information, a synergy based approach seems best, working from the medical principle of "First, do no harm." This would allow Mr.T to contribute to other positive efforts that he does not fully understand, such as Hoid (assuming Hoid is positive). The fact that the Diagram's solution is to become the "king of everything" by attrition throws it's strategy into question. Mr. T supposedly has intelligence based on investiture that may actually exceed uninvested human potential. We are told that it is purely based on intelligence and not at all precognitive. Based on investiture, all three Shards had super-intelligence and varying degrees of precognition. Can a shard make a person have more precognition or intelligence than itself? I doubt it. So that means that super-Mr. T may have been less intelligent, less prescient and more ignorant than both O and C. This, in turn, would mean that the Shards may be better equipped to judge how well thte Diagram fits in their plans than the Diagram is able to work them into it's schemes. Odium apparently was working with Szeth when he tried to assassinate Dalinar per Mr. T's orders. That verifies that Mr. T is advancing Odium's plans. As we see, the Diagram failed to get Dalinar assassinated. Likewise, the purpose seems to have been to keep Dalinar from making peace w/the Parshendi. But peace w/the Parshendi was never even possible, so that can be chalked up as another failure of the Diagram. The Diagram has so many problems that it is almost certainly harmful. It's goals (1 and 2 above), strategy (3 and 4 above), tactics (4 and 5 above) and execution (6 above) have all been shown to be questionable. The strongest argument I can see for the Diagram helping in some way is that it is so obviously bad that it is due for a Sandersonian reversal.

{baseless speculation} He dealt with whatever needed dealing with on the Warbreaker planet and he didn't want to rule there. He came to Roshar for the freely available investiture and lost Nightblood somehow. He wants/needs to get Nightblood back and is hanging with the priests until he can get a line on Nightblood. He got wind of the Odium situation and wants to help out. {/baseless speculation}

The psychological version of Savanorm and RShara'a answers (which I don't disagree with at all) would be that Kaladin sees Amaram's betrayal as changing who he is. Before, he was the confident, trusting platoon leader, now he sees himself as broken and betrayed. While he has started to move forward, it is still part of his identity. It is less a physical scar than an association with his mental history.

There are some things that are not really dangers, but which can be either problems or not depending on how Brandon wants them to work. People partially on and partially off the platform when it is activated. Do people on the other side get transported the other way? People being in the same position you are being transported to could be a problem. Buildings? What if someone built a palace or a church where you are being transported to? Or what if someone was waving a Shardblade around? Simultaneous transportation? Both ways between two Oathgates is one possibility. When they are unlocked, will one be able to go directly from Stormseat to Kholinar? If so, then what happens when one party goes from Urithiru to Kholinar while another party is going to Kholinar from Stormseat? This last would not be a problem if the Stormseat Oathgate only goes to Urithiru, but why would you have to set the destination if there was only one possible destination? Activating the Oathgate without adequate stormlight for the payload. If the investiture is distance related, one could be dumped partway, possibly in the middle of rock or something equally inconvenient.

Assorted random thoughts: Highstorms start at the Origin and weaken as they travel over land. What about the Everstorm? Is there only one that never weakens? Do new ones get created? Does it/they get reinforced when closest to Braize? Can the Voidbringers sing it stronger? Shinovar actually has mountains to the East and West. Will it be somewhat protected? The destruction that occurs when an Everstorm and a Highstorm collide are incredible. Is the Everstorm predictable? Can the Stormfather be convinced to only make Highstorms when they will collide w/the Everstorm over non-vital regions?

Patience, young grasshopper ...

from WoR: Only two, with leg after leg (implying many legs), check. Inhuman form, check. Enormous, check. Not stormform Parshendi, check.

I totally agree. This makes no sense to me, except that the contempt for the Lost Radiants actually doesn't seem to be a consistent attitude. IIRC, though, it is just a thought of Kaladin's. What makes total sense to me is that Shardholders get light eyes. They rule people because of having Shards, then they get the ardents and others they rule to agree that they and their descendents should rule.

So much awesomeness! What s/he said! And: The distorted face in the Highstorm The infused creatures in the Highstorm. Larval chasmfiends? Chasmfiend intelligence and venality. The cometspren harassing Eshonai when she was in stormform. The Santhid rescuing Shallan Where was Jasnah that she had to make a hurried exit and got burned Adolin not feeling the Thrill and where his arc goes Larkin! Larkin? Larkin!? Lift's history Odium and Mr. T. Restares (the creature in Tukar?) Sebariel Radiant special abilities such as possibly Kaladin's wind-fighting or Shallan's memories Cryptics watching Elhokar and then not watching him anymore. Elhokar's evolution What happens when Highstorms and Everstorms collide? How does it get managed What happened w/the assassin that Jasnah had watching the queen? What is up w/the queen anyway? the history of the Iriali locked Oathgates? 11 lamps in the Oathgate in Kholinar, 10 lamps in Stormseat Herald abilities and where have they been Danlan and the rest of Graves' cell Moash and his choices the scar on Nale's face Wit, the correspondence (how are they communicating) w/his reptilian friend and the stone that no longer has value. Dalinar's final vision not sent by the Stormfather and the God beyond Leftover from tWoK: What happened to the gems in Elhokar's suit in the Chasmfiend battle? What are all the extra lines in the Surgebinding chart? eg between opposing orders or between order 1 and order 4 Aimians! Aimians? Aimians!? The hair inheritance thing Vanrial Shardplate What started the Desolation process Rhyshadium Edit: added last 2 to first list

I believe Syl claims to be the only honorspren that crossed over, implying that there are others who did not. Wyndle spoke of honorspren also, so I thingk there are more honorspren. IIRC, the Cryptics let Pattern go as a sort of experiment and other cryptics were around when Shallan was interacting with him in tWoK. There were other "oilspren" involved when Jasnah and Ivory were interacting also. I conclude that only the Stormfather's prohibition on bonding was absolute, albeit unenforceable.

There is a potential discrepancy involved here. Gavilar apparently told the Parshendi that he was going to bring back their gods, but if the Unmade are the Parshendi gods and Nergaoul (sp) is an Unmade, then at least one of the Parshendi gods was already back. At least Mr. T told Szeth that the death rattles started a year before Gavilar's death. In addition, the spren, anticipating the Desolation, have already started returning and Szeth also apparently reported some similar phenomenon (which earned him the Truthless sentence).

Aside from the obvious: People are different Shipping can have a measure of projection People like the unexpected I think this is related to one of Shallan's next challenges. In WoR she has learned to morph and become different people. While I believe that she will always be somewhat fluid (possibly why lightweavers have only the one oath), she will need to define her core self better in order to progress. She seems to be physically attracted to Adolin and enjoy his playful, positive personality. She seems to admire Kaladin's depth and determination. I can easily see her choosing to go one way or the other, choosing yet a third or never choosing one in a definitive way. Shallan has mentored with Jasnah and Tyn. She could easily choose to learn from Mraize or Iyatil, then eventually Shallash or even Wit. Similarly, she could experience and learn from connecting with Adolin and Kaladin and decide to stay with either or neither. I don't think Brandon will do a love triangle for the drama of it, but he could do it because that is how the character needs to evolve. Kaladin seems more uniquely attracted and her ability to lighten his moods clearly would work well for him, but it is not clear to me that Shallan needs more than friendship from him.

What an interesting thought. I don't have a good reason for it, but spren creation doesn't seem to work like that. The Stormfather apparently not exist until Tanavast was separated from the Shard (stopped being the Almighty). The Nightwatcher is not the same as Cultivation apparently. I guess that Cultivation could have created the Nightwatcher as a spren or the difference in ideas between the Nightwatcher allow the Nightwatcher to exist as a spren (assuming the Nightwatcher really is a spren). I speculate that while the "bead" of a living being exists in the cognitive realm, a distinct spren is not created. Only when the concept doesn't have a "target" does the spren get created. Otherwise, there would be multiple Stormfathers for example. If this unfounded speculation is true, then the Heralds have beads on the cognitive realm that serve as the targets for thoughts of the Heralds, and the Heralds do not have separate spren. The Nightwatcher would then exist as a target for ideas of the Nightwatcher. If the Nightwatcher ceased to exist, would a spren be created? OTOH, there a multitude of windspren. Are they the result of different cognitive being thinking different things at different times about different winds? Just speculating. I know nothing. Edit: gramur

An amazing question. There are so many possibilities. At a meta-level, there are two 5 book story arcs. If the Odium thing were solved within the first arc, the second wouldn't be very dramatic. I baselessly speculate that the first arc will be about surviving the Everstorm desolation. The second will be about dealing w/Odium somehow. There is an epigraph with a prophecy about the listeners coming to an accommodation w/the spren. I further baselessly speculate that that will happen (with help from Rlain and the escaped listeners). If that happens and the Voidbringers can be converted back, then the investiture Odium put into the stormspren becomes wasted and he is further invested. The investiture of H+C+Adonalsium will also be working together. I imagine Odium would rather die than change, so I don't know how he is forced into an accommodation. I imagine that he would flee, leaving investiture behind and becoming weaker, rather than have his intent massaged. OTOH, I can imagine him being contemptuous of his opponents, and prone to underestimate them, so maybe he can be trapped. The interaction between the Everstorm and the Highstorms seems problematic. Where they coincide, the land seems like it will be destroyed. It might be as simple as the Stormfather timing the Highstorms so they coincide over water or wastelands, but I doubt it will be that easy.

There is WoB that Kaladin is immune to the thrill as of tWoK. IIRC, it is implied that he wasn't always. That suggests to me that Radiance or surgebinding or spren bonding w/an Honorspren interferes w/the Thrill. As for Eshonai, I imagine that the voices that are controlling her are of Odium, possibly Unmade. I can imagine that that gave her greater access to the Thrill over greater distance (or something like that). Edit: gramur