hoser

I think this makes total sense. Consider what would have happened if Dalinar had come at the end of the fight and been the only one to walk out on the balcony. He would have survived the fall easily in intact Shardplate. Dalinar reaches the conclusion when Szeth has beaten two unShardplated fighters. An armored Dalinar and armored Adolin would have put up much more of a fight. For character development it seems like a good conclusion now that he has changed, as guilt about the past doesn't seem that helpful.

In the first fight, he fled because Kaladin's healing his Shard-severed limb, infusing (which allowed surviving the fall) and words convinced him that he was wrong. Otherwise, he would have finished the job, perhaps killing Kaladin in the process. He then falls to Urithiru and contemplates (I-10): He decides to look for more evidence, so he is not sure, but he definitely thinks about the Shamans being wrong and he ignored the orders of his oathstone holder until he accepted the story about the stolen Honorblade.

Supposedly Nalan is killing Surgebinders to prevent a Desolation. If the Desolation is now here, he may stop killing Surgebinders. He says they are going after the Stone Shamanate. If they retrieve the remaining Honorblades, Nalan may actually do something constructive. At that point Szeth will be faced with how Mr. T used him and lied to him about the stolen Honorblade. We can hope for Szeth going after Mr. T.

done

Science as inspiration for storytelling? from the Seattle Steelheart signing: Q: Is [the Division surge] a reframing of, at one point in time you were talking about weak/strong forces? A: Um, weak/strong forces, yes, that's the one that sent me there partially. Like, I'm not actually... the idea of the fundamental forces is a cool thing to me so it's not like I'm actually trying to use the weak and strong forces, the idea of there being fundamental forces. I wanted to go off on it in a fancy way. Like this one right here I told them was surface tension. But it's not really surface tension. It's more like um, the people with this could take a piece of cloth and snap it out and it would become hard as if the cloth became steel. I'm trying to explain this scientifically, but it doesn't work scientifically. Imagine as if they could restructure the atoms so that they became a latticework like a crystal rather than being soft like...cloth. I'm calling it surface tension, but it's not really surface tension. Q: Tensile strength? A: It's kind of like tensile strength. I have to go through Peter and say "Alright Peter, come up with what we should really call this." He does the hard science a lot better than I do. I do the armchair theories and then he goes, "Ok, now this is the math if someone were to actually fall off of this and 0.7 gravity and the weight of the bridge...".

Syl, perhaps the highspren (if the Skybreakers did not participate in the Recreance), but the survivors might be thinking spren that were not bonded at the time of the Recreance. They presumably were and are still in the cognitive realm. Jasnah may have visited them, but I don't know why we would have seen them.

I ain't puttin' no Shardplate on no live Chasmfiend! No way!

Point taken. {vent} Pissed me off, too. Why have both sides talking about peace in a war that has lasted for years, then the Parshendi don't even try to communicate until it's too late. Pointless subplot, except for providing Rlain motivation to leave Bridge 4. {/vent}

I think Mr. T made up the thing about the Honorblade being stolen to keep Szeth on his assassination spree and save his own life. Szeth saw Kaladin heal a Shardblade-severed limb. The Honorblade being stolen was an explanation that didn't involve Kaladin being a Radiant. Groups of people loyal to a Radiant can infuse as we saw during Dalinar's Purelake vision. I think that when Kaladin advanced to third oath status, his "squires" gained the ability to infuse. Teft also comments on some of the men glowing during the Voidbringer battle. I think this is what gave Lopen the ability to infuse.

To approach, Szeth had to either fly in or have been traveling with the army for some time. If he flew in, how did he miss the thousands of glowing, singing, lightning striking Voidbringers surrounding the Alethi? If he traveled with the army, how did he not hear about or see them while he traveled with the army? Did he just fly in right after the last of the Parshendi fled? It seems possible, but that's awfully convenient timing. I hope Brandon didn't do that to us. Even the Alethi immediately knew the red eyes meant Voidbringers and Szeth has always had more information about them than the Alethi. As a resident of Roshar, Szeth would know that a highstorm during the weeping is just wrong. If 40% of the Radiants fight, each one contributes more in a battle than a Herald and there are hundreds of fighting Radiants, then the H+C side would become much stronger with the advent of the Radiants. If Heralds + peasants can barely beat a Desolation with the Heralds playing a significant role, then Heralds + Radiants + peasants has no trouble with a desolation. So I think the Heralds are vastly more capable than the Radiants. This chain of deductions does have the stamp of missing information. My main point is that Nalan must have seen what was going on and could have made a significant difference, but he chose not to even try. What does that tell us about his goals? In addition, Nalan knows things and can sense things that others can't. While we don't know what his abilities are for sure, it seems likely that he could perceive the Voidbringers and the Everstorm.

I don't see how you can monitor Szeth's activities without noticing that the Parshendi have changed into stormform. For that matter, how does Szeth not notice that the Voidbringers are all around and that his whole Truthless gig is totally bogus before doing the "Assassinate Dalinar, the Sequel" act. Heralds have died before, but I doubt that people who are singing obliviously and take too long to react to defend themselves killed many Heralds. I do think that a Herald without Shardplate is more than a match for any single Radiant, because otherwise all the desolations after the Radiants occurred would have been cakewalks. Okay, I'm a little confused here. Do you think a Desolation has come or not? I personally have no doubt. Is it time to start a new "I told you so" list? As for your last sentence: amen, brother (or sister).

*cancels preorder for "Stones Unhallowed"*

This discussion is just about Nalan's motivations. I understand that the Everstorm had to happen for meta-purposes of the story. I do think Nalan has some way to travel freely. He could have his Honorblade, one of the Honorblades that allows teleportation or a fabrial that allows flying or teleportation. I don't see how he retrieves Szeth's body without some amazing form of travel. There are apparently 3 fronts: Adolin's, Aladar's and Roion's. On Adolin's front they slaughter the singers before they are done and take out the Parshendi warleader and only Shardbearer. On Aladar's, they eventually prevail. On Roion's, the Parshendi rout them and are able to finish the song as they wish. I do think a flying or teleporting Herald with a Shardblade could make a difference. For example, slaughtering the Voidbringers from the back as they start their song would probably have an amazing effect. I could also see him monitoring the battlefield and joining Roion's side as they start to break. I do think the leadership of a Herald, invested and bearing a Shardblade, could have maybe turned the tide there. The Heralds apparently were significant players in turning back previous desolations. The most effective thing he could have done, IMO, would have been to check in with the Alethi leadership before the battle. Immediately beforehand, the knowledge that they had a Herald on their side would have helped the Alethi morale significantly. If he shows up even earlier, he can be even more beneficial, helping the Alethi get to the center quicker, providing information, training and inspiration. With a living, functioning Herald who knows the shattered plains and can travel around them freely, they might have even been able to get more than four highprinces to join the expedition. I cannot say with any certainty what effect Nalan would have had, but what is most significant to me is that he didn't even try. If the Everstorm initiated the Desolation and Nalan is sincerely interested in averting same, wouldn't you think he would at least try to do something about it? As for blowing his cover, what is the point anymore? With the start of a Desolation and the existence of Radiants and Voidbringers, the lies of the Heralds are exposed. I do not see a good reason to hide anymore. Nalan certainly has tons of information that would be useful to the resistance if he wanted to share it. Instead, he pursues his agenda of overthrowing the Shamanate. I could imagine that he and Szeth might end up bringing the Shin and the Honorblades into the fray for the resistance, but I don't see why he isn't helping more.

Another thread brought to mind another way in which Nalan's behavior makes no sense to me. He murders proto-Surgebinders under the flimsiest of pretenses "to avert a Desolation." He is apparently monitoring the situation when the Parshendi summon the Everstorm, but he does nothing to intervene. If he was opposed to the Desolation, why would he not help stop the Parshendi from summoning the Everstorm? It does fit with the way that he did nothing to stop Szeth when Szeth was apparently serving Odium.

This is really fun. Sebarial is certainly an interesting character. If Roion's side had stopped the singing Parshendi in the everstorm battle, rather than getting routed, I wonder whether the Everstorm could have been averted? I would think a Herald or maybe even a Surgebinder could have made a difference there. It would take an amazing temperament for a Herald to not try to make a difference. OTOH, Nin apparently did just that, as he was clearly monitoring the situation and did nothing to help.

Yeah, or maybe the ten fools are shadow versions of the Heralds that really have nothing to do with the Unmade. Even if H and C had a thing about ten, there's no reason to believe that it was important to Odium. I jump to conclusions based on such minor hints that I am often wrong.

This is a great compilation. I think the ten fools may be a mythologized version of the Unmade. Brandon had this to say about the ten fools: An interesting question for me is where in the history of the people currently inhabiting Roshar the Unmade first manifested. If we believe that mankind was once elsewhere (the Tranquilline Halls?), did the Heralds and/or Unmade first manifest elsewhere and come to Roshar with their respective patron Shards? I imagine the Unmade as beings that served Odium and gave up their physical aspects (their unmaking) as they took on the investiture from Odium to become splinters. They would be consciousness provided with investiture, where spren are investiture that developed consciousness. The result is about the same, even though the process is inverted.

Spren seem to be the product of two things: abstract (this doesn't seem like the right adjective, but it is hopefully in the right direction) thought and investiture. WoB is that there were spren from investiture left by Adonalsium. Presumably some of the native species adapted to take advantage of some of these: greatshells, parshendi, aimians, skyeels?, ... . Then H+C came, providing investiture and bringing people (including Heralds) (adapting the mythology, I don't know that this is canon). Presumably the investiture and thought of the people created new spren. After a time, Odium came along (bringing his unmade, I think) and maybe created spren. Eventually he created new spren for the listeners that turned them into Voidbringers (my interpretation of the epigraphs). Then spren copied the Heralds and bonded to create Surgebinders. Presumably these are new spren formed from the investiture provided by H+C. This seems to correspond to the time of Nohadon, who formed the Radiants following a Desolation (if we believe the vision from tWoK). There is an epigraph in WoR that suggests that Ishi was also somehow involved in creating the Oath system to restrain the behaviors of Surgebinders and that the surge pairings were deliberately set up then. I don't know how to figure out who did what to constrain the spren behavior. The Heralds had already been around with the same surge pairings and the spren supposedly copied them, so I are confused. After H was splintered there was a proliferation of spren that acted as a release for the investiture. Presumably these are the ones that you see in tWoK that are not in the visions that Dalinar sees. Are these new types or are they more of existing types? I hope this helps the discussion.

The creatures in the background are believed to be larkin/dragonwasps, which have abilities relating to stormlight.

Amazing discussion! For Nin/Nalan/Darkness/whatever, we have the eons of torture and survival guilt/betrayal. Shallash is apparently peacefully destroying artwork. Slaughtering surgebinders seems very different. I keep wondering about his the scar on his face. Did he have that when the Heralds packed it in? Could it be a means/result of something that further corrupted him? I wonder whether Odium got to him sometime during the last four millenia. OTOH, emotionless does not exactly seem like Odium's modus operandi. If Odium was controlling him somehow, I imagine the other Heralds might be able to tell and wouldn't work with him, as they must know Odium well. While slaughtering for Mr. T, Szeth seems to have also been serving Odium (support for this thesis below). Szeth just makes no sense to me. He apparently had information about the return/existence of the Heralds/Radiants/Voidbringers. He knows that this would be the (I-10) "... End of All Things. The end of truth." He is so convinced of this that he doesn't flee the Stone Shamanate, whose base concept is that they are "all that remains," but bears witness to the falseness of their belief system even though he knows that he might be punished. Then he just accepts their sentence of Truthlessness. If he knows they are wrong, then why would he accept the sentence? If he is not sure that they are wrong, then why did he speak up in the first place? If Szeth believed in doing the right thing by his own understanding, then he would not accept the punishment of the Shamanate that he knows is fundamentally wrong. If he doesn't accept his own understanding of the information he found about the H/R/V, then why would he challenge the Shamanate enough to be punished so severely? Others have deduced that the Skybreakers had highspren and were the order that "entertained great subterfuge" and didn't disband at the Recreance. If some of the Skybreakers then died naturally without breaking their oaths, their spren wouldn't have been killed. This would account for why Jasnah could get information from the highspren that she couldn't from the spren that were killed at the Recreance. Support for Szeth serving Odium: In chapter 32 the Stormfather tells Kaladin that "HE COMES" with an image of the Everstorm and Syl says "He's coming." ... "The one who hates," ... "The darkness inside. Kaladin, he's watching. Something is going to happen. Something bad." just before Szeth attackes the first time. Szeth finds himself hating everyone even though he knows it is irrational and observes that it is a strange emotion. Szeth "hears" the screaming of his victims. Blightwind (Yelig-nar?, an Unmade) is also associated with the screaming of those he consumed.

It is by no means conclusive, but I try to look at intent. What is the point of the extra words Brandon uses? He tried to cut hard enough to grunt (yeah, yeah, Renarin, but still (hoping Feather doesn't see this)), then harder and still nothing. If it is like Shardplate and a harder impact would make an impression, then it seems like intentional misdirection. If it is impervious, then he is giving us a clear hint with the extra detail about grunting and trying harder.

@RShara - this is a fantastic resource. I am delighted to be able to find things that are not in the WoT interview database here easily. There is relevant information from other signings such as the Steelheart tour that is also not in the WoT database such as the linked post transcribed by Shardlet that I would love to have similar accessibility for. Does it make sense to incorporate these in your opus?

This is in support of what Moogle is suggesting above with some additions. I see the top of the Surgebinding chart as representing the more "honory" of the Honor-Cultivation spren (those linked to the male Heralds) and the bottom of the chart representing the more "cultivationy" Nahel bond spren (those linked to the female Heralds). I can't tell whether the vertical placement or the angle from the center indicates more of one than the other. The Stormfather is clearly almost all Honor, but is Syl equally Honor or more Cultivation? Likewise, the lightspren (Glys and Ym's), the Cryptics and the vinespren (Wyndle) are likely almost all Cultivation. The Truthwatchers apparently can see the future, which Cultivation is better at than Honor, by Tanavast's own admission. I feel more confident that the Willshaper and Skybreaker spren are mixed leaning toward Honor. Similarly, I imagine the Elsecaller (Ivory) and Dustbringer spren are mixed, leaning toward Cultivation. WoB is that there are Adonalsium spren that are splinters also, so there are Adonalsium spren in the mix. Apparently after Honor was splintered, spren became much more plentiful, providing a release for investiture. Does that make these Honor-spren, or are they sort of random and unaligned? Supporting quotes below: From the Seattle signing for Steelheart - Brandon is A:

Great possibilities! I even have another one. I have this completely unsupported idea that the Radiants had a plan when they disbanded. That there was a reason they left the Shardplate and Shardblades to be abused. That they made provision for the Dawnchant and Way of Kings to be preserved at Vanrial. Conceivably they wanted to leave a way to get to Urithiru and the Oathgate at Stormseat was more obscure than some of the others, so they deliberately left it unlocked. I am very curious about the Oathgate in Shinovar. Szeth knew about Urithiru and I don't know whether Jasnah or Shallan tested going to or from Shinovar. Shinovar is supposedly the next place to get hit, so I wonder whether anyone will try to get there to help. The other thing I am very curious about is what happens when one puts an Honorblade in the Oathgate lock for both the locked and unlocked gates.

I can't find it, but I believe that there is a quote to the effect that splintered investiture develops in ways that can be dangerous. With the splintered investiture of both Dominion and Devotion, the cognitive realm has near Sel lots of investiture that has been developing on it's own for a long time and has become dangerous. I think this is at least part of why traveling to or from Sel via the cognitive realm is dangerous. The best example of this I can think of is the Stormfather, who forbids Syl to come to the physical realm, generates a storm to wipe out Dalinar's army and forbids Syl to rejoin Kaladin even though these things are all apparently needed for the resistance to Odium. He is a splinter of Honor, but he seems insane and works against what Honor seems to have been intending in his visions to Dalinar.