hoser

I will putrefy that which smells pleasant. - Order of Windbreakers

So many questions. Do they know she has the Shardblade (presumably not)? Do they know she killed their father? Was her father killed with the Shardblade? How was her father killed? How was Nan Balat injured? There are presumably people who would pay immense sums for a Shardblade, no questions asked. How would you transact with them safely? "Okay, here's your money. Thanks for the Shardblade. Now give me the money back or your eyes are smoke." How do you put the word out safely that you have a Shardblade for sale? They are already afraid of the Ghostbloods wanting the Soulcaster back. What if the Ghostbloods knew they had a Shardblade? Does Jasnah know she killed her father (she said it to Pattern, but did Jasnah hear?)? Does Jasnah know that she has a Shardblade (presumably not)?

It is not clear that the first ideal provides a benefit to Kaladin at this point, but it seems possible. Maybe what happened to Kaladin when he spoke the second ideal is the exception. It seems unlikely, as Jasnah has been Surgebinding for a long time and Lift seems to have reached the second ideal, but what if Kaladin was the first to reach a second ideal in millenia? Maybe what happened with Kaladin was a release of some built up energy that won't be happening for every Radiant and every ideal. Something similar happened to Raoden in Elantris, IIRC. Not saying, just suggesting.

Why would anyone translate Beowulf to old English?

As I said, some of the reasoning is inferential. 1a. The epigraph for Ch. 35 has someone saying that many wanted Urithiru to be in Alethela, but it could not be, so they asked for it to be placed westward. According to a knight in "Starfalls", the orders were centered in Urithiru, but lived across Alethela. Apparently the knights were the only ones who could get there. The simplest interpretations I can figure out is that the epigraph is the voice of someone involved in the nascent Knights. What is your alternative explanation? 1b. tWoK is also referred to as forty parables. There is one common ideal that is apparently the moral of the introduction that Dalinar recites to Elhokar and Sadeas at Adolin's duel. There is another one read to Dalinar about candles that clearly has a moral that could be an ideal. There are 10 orders each with 4 unique ideals which equals forty ideals. Dalinar also refers to tWoK as teaching leadership. Teft is our best source for information about the Knights and has been fairly accurate. There is some evidence in support and none against. Not proof, but what is your argument against? 3. I can argue it either way. One possibility is that the splintering was first, then the epigraph, then the Recreance and the Recreance vision was of the future from Honor's POV. The other is that there was the Recreance before the splintering and the vision was of something that the Almighty saw. In this second scenario the epigraph is the voice of a Radiant from after the splintering, so some persisted after the Recreance or it is the "voice" of the spirit of a dead former Radiant. I know nothing, so I just say that the Recreance and the splintering could happen in either order.

Great catch, Meg! I've never seen discussion of this particular quote I assume that the Hierocracy followed the Recreance because I think the Knights would have stopped the Hierocracy if they were around (and WoR spoilers). My own sense of the timeline has the Recreance very distant and the Hierocracy significantly more recent. The juxtaposition of the highlighted sections is certainly curious. A timeline such as the following seems consistent with the OP quote: Recreance Significant time where Jah Keved, Alethkar, Kharbranth, and Natanatan were strong allies, possibly in the face of chaos as existing power structures adjusted to the presence of Shardblades in their arsenals. Rise of the Hierocracy (this could have caused rifts between the above four kingdoms, as they would all have had to give up their nationhood to the Hierocracy) Hierocracy strong period ending with the rise of Sunmaker and the fall of the Hierocracy The modern era covered by those histories. I would guess that the calendar started with Sunmaker toppling the Hierocracy and starting the "Era of Freedom from Religious Tyranny". The histories cover five Vorin kingdoms, only four of which worked closely together much earlier. It does raise some interesting questions: Why would Shallan be so sure about certain countries working together closely following the Recreance when that history is so poorly understood? Particularly when she doesn't even know all the Vorin countries in a later time period. What did happen immediately following the Recreance? Was there chaos, or did the existing countries just change leadership as the new Shardbearers took over and molded the history to justify their rule. Were historical records largely destroyed in this time period? It would make sense for histories to focus on the time since the fall of the Hierocracy. The combination of post-Recreance chaos (hypothesized), Hierocracy propagandizing and Sunmaker propagandizing could have made records scarce and/or inaccurate. Is that what happened? Then there are the obvious questions: What is the timeline (including what happened 1173 years ago and the start of the current calendar)? How did the Hierocracy interact with the existing countries? What has happened since the Sunmaker?

Renarin can't be female. If she were, the public sight of her left hand would be too stimulating for all the men around . I think the gender divisions repress both genders, as Gloom says. I think it weakens society as a whole as nobody is encouraged to see a unified perspective. Even a successful male warrior cannot lead as well, as they are not encouraged to learn history nor able to communicate directly across time or distance. A qualified female leader is unlikely to arise because of the traditions, only the males can lead fighters and they are deprived of vital experience.

I think the Eshonai POV excerpt implies that there was a central city in a largely inhabited plains, which matches with Natanatan having been there and having fallen centuries before as Dalinar indicates in Starfalls. Welcome! Have an introductory upvote! I agree that the central region was a city. The indications seem to be that it was the capital of Natanatan, with the main inhabited areas of Natanatan all around. Since Urithiru is supposedly to the west of Alethkar and unreachable on foot, I don't see how it fits as the city in the center of Natanatan. In the absence of any other indications, I agree that the capitals of the Silver Kingdoms (of which Natanatan is one) would seem like the logical places for the Oathgates. That also means that there might be one near Kholinar. The combination of Jasnah as Elsecaller (the order that has the Transportation surge) and Shallan (who might have ability to detect illusions as part of lightweaving) seems potent for discovering things disguised or protected by illusion. Finding hidden Oathgates seems like it might appeal to Pattern. Edit: added Oathgate stuff

While it is certainly possible. I do not believe that we can conclude that there are exactly thirty magic systems, nor that fabrials can implement exactly ten of them. In the quote above, the questioner makes a number of assumptions that Brandon does not confirm (as I read it). I believe that we have 10 surgebindings that the Radiants can perform by themselves. There are hints that spren can be corrupted, people can be possessed, thunderclasts and midnight essence can be created, and the future can be foretold as part of voidbinding. Brandon has said that each Radiant order has something extra to itself. Some think that windrunners have stormriding, for example. The Radiant eye table has many extra lines that could indicate these special abilities and/or abilities that Radiants of differing orders could do in concert. It seems possible (to me, at least) that there are a minimum of about 12 to upwards of 30 sets of magic that can be done, independant of how they are done.

You want us to understand that we don't really want the whole book spoiled before it is even released? Spoilsport! How can we whine if we know it's done for our own enjoyment? Peter review: Pros: Accuracy Slight information gain Cons: Ambiguity Slight information gain (no major spoilers)

Hilarious! I fixed it for ya. Taking this with inappropriate seriousness: Shallan feels the stormlight when she soulcasts. This could imply that the size of a soulcasting is limited by both the amount of stormlight available and the capacity of the Soulcasting surgebinder. If Brandon wants to limit what can be done by soulcasting, the fix is already in as we know that Kaladin and Szeth both talk about a limit to the amount of stormlight they can hold.

I know nothing. Here's the best I've got. 1. Two inferential reasonings: a. Nohadon talks about walking (from Abamabar) to Urithiru in the in-book WoK. I think the Knights were involved in establishing Urithiru. b. Nohadon's parables relate to ideals including 5th ideal for each order. If the 5th ideals were known, there were 5th ideal Radiants. 2. Jasnah tells Shallan that the Radiants abandoned Urithiru before the Recreance (chapter 45) 3. I can't tell whether Honor was splintered before or after the Recreance. Recreance vision argues for after, but it could have been a future vision. The epigraph before chapter 2 that says something like "Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?" seems like it could have been a Radiant after the splintering.

I would do the timeline as follows: -Nohadon vision -KR formed, WoK written, Urithiru founded during Nohadon's lifetime -multiple desolations (Purelake vision could be here) -Starfalls vision -multiple desolations (Purelake vision could also be here) -the last Desolation, Heralds betrayal -splintering of Honor possible here -abandonment of Urithiru -splintering of Honor also possible here -Recreance -splintering of Honor also possible here -Hierocracy -Sunmaker -Shattering and fall of Natanatan

Well, I can't prove anything with the limited data we have about a fictional world. It just seems totally obvious to me that it is self-fulfilling prophecy that puts Amaram sacrificing untrained, underage, undersize peasants and the Kholins with a larger (pre-betrayal) well-trained force. By not adequately training or effectively leading the peasants in his care, Amaram continually wastes them. He then "has to" recruit more less-qualified prospects, which he then squanders. It seems clear to me that by just taking a less aggressive stance for a few months, he could train his forces better. If he managed the battles better at the beginning, his losses would be lower. Either or both of those would lower his attrition rate and turn his vicious cycle into a virtuous one. Instead, he engages in a few small symbolic gestures to make it seem like he cares, while neglecting the darkeyed soldiers he is responsible for. I don't think it is really pragmatic. It's just ignorant and lazy. I understand that you think that Dalinar has to be taking a less strict interpretation of the codes and want to condemn him for it. I don't get that that whole discussion is relevant to the current discussion about Amaram.

Yeah, sure. It might be typical. It is not clear that it is better. Amaram is in charge, and could insist on more training and/or older recruits. The Kholin army shows that there is another way that works. Amaram knew Gavilar and Dalinar and could see it. It also reflects Amaram's approach. He doesn't value the darkeyes, but he wants to make it look like he does. He lets a few darkeyes shelter inside during highstorms, but lets them be slaughtered rather than training or leading them properly. It is good writing by Brandon to show that the murders he commits to steal the Shards and gain a false reputation are not inconsistent with his general approach.

Dalinar seemed to glow when protecting Elhokar from the chasmfiend and bridge 4 from the Parshendi. In conjunction with the quoted internal voices, I think he already has a spren bond that he is not aware of. The back cover verbiage makes it pretty clear that Dalinar will be a Bondsmith, which I think will have a different kind of spren than Syl. If Bondsmiths are order 10, then his spren could be an honorspren or even one of the Honorspren (if there are several types of honorspren and only one type of Honorspren). As for Syl's thinking she is the only honorspren. When she says that, her face seems different to Kaladin. I think it might be current information from the cognitive realm. I don't think the Bondsmith spren will look like windspren, since all the bonding spren have all looked different so far and Bondsmiths won't have the gravity surge. That Syl might have said that to him is a great idea. If he is bonded to one spren, could another speak to him? Why not? I know nothing.

{Wild Speculation} Lines all represent abilities: surges to orders represent abilities provided to the order by the surge: pressure gives full lashing, gravity gives basic and reverse lashing, transformation gives Soulcasting, etc. . surge to surge gives abilities provided to orders accessing both surges (the special abilities provided to each surge): stormriding for windrunners, ranged transformation for elsecallers, etc. . order to order represent abilities that the two orders have working together (no examples here because we haven't seen it): if an elsecaller and a lightweaver could scry a remote location if they worked together, etc. {/Wild Speculation}

Hark! I am Minimum'Elin Herald of the Altiny!

Brilliant! If they could hear their dead from long ago, rediscovering the old forms seems like it would be a lot easier.

I believe there is WoB that Cultivation is unsplintered. The Lift interlude refers to the Nightwatcher and mother, which seem to overlap and might be the same. Speculatively, but stealing ideas freely and without attribution, I believe that the Parshendi are native to Roshar. I think they may have been influenced by cultivation or Adonalsium, but that Odium's Unmade found a way to influence/control some of them through corrupted spren. I think that the Unmade are the dark gods they fear.

Spoiler tags can be done with the editor widget just to the left of the font box, which gives a dropdown menu that includes "spoiler" or by hand editing [spoilier]spoiler content[/spoilier] only with "spoiler" instead of "spoilier". WoR spoiler: Edit: grammar, spoiler details

Welcome cris34b! Please accept an introductory upvote. One nitpicky point. Posts with WoR spoilers are meant to be in the WoR subforum or enclosed in spoiler tags. The moderators can move the thread, but until or unless, you could put spoiler tags on the WoR content to protect the experience of those who don't want to deal w/spoilers. I find a lot of wonderful thought here. I've been wondering about the Lifebrother and I am delighted to see your thoughts on what he might involve. I want to add some information gleaned from interviews that you may not be aware of. WoB is that Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved. WoB is that the spren we have seen in tWoK are all of Honor, Cultivation or both. Other WoB is that there are spren that are splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar. WoB has spren serving as a release mechanism of sorts for the Honor's post-splintering power. This, combined with the many more mundane spren in Kaladin-era Roshar compared to Tanavasts visions, suggests to some that some of the Kaladin-era spren are a post-splintering phenomena. In the final vision of tWoK, Honor claims that "I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. ..." I accept Cultivation as female unless it turns out that Honor is not the source of the visions. Given the WoB, I think some of the Nahel bond spren are wholly or partially of Cultivation. I can look up the WoB quotes if needed, and your thoughtful exposition triggered more that I don't want to put in this non-WoR forum.

The why of the Recreance is a very interesting question for me. That death rattle always pointed to Honor splintering before the Recreance to me also. OTOH, in that case the Recreance vision would be a future imagining of Honor. If the Radiants quit before the splintering, then the Recreance vision could be something Honor witnessed. Either way, many of the Windrunners fly in the Recreance vision, so the evidence is that the Radiants had some of their powers at the time of the Recreance. Edit: added "Recreance" to incoherent first sentence

I agree that Kaladin will likely interrogate Szeth if the opportunity arises. I think Taln and Hoid will be appearing at the Shattered Plains. Taln will know that Jezrien is around. As the (apparently) sole member of the Jezrien is not drooling club, I think Jezrien is another possible resource. My belief is that once Taln makes himself known, Jezrien may come out of the woodwork.

How to Lose Friends and Still Influence People