hoser

I think there are some constraints to consider. The Kholins have some solid opposition and some highprinces they hope to win over like Aladar. I doubt they would want to take the Shards their potential allies have. If they have nine committed enemies, they are probably dead. Sadeas was planning to start working with two Highprinces, so that probably puts the floor of committed enemies at three. After the debacle at the Tower, I guess they might need 3 allies at least. Sadeas and Amaram seem to be the only Shardbearers in their camp. In the planning meeting, they were saying that Highprinces were untouchable and Amaram is Dalinar's friend, so they may be out. That leaves between two and five highprinces to take Shards from. If a highprince has four Shards (a relatively high number) and loses two, I guess they will probably either go to war or knuckle under. That gives a ceiling of ten Shards (two each from five opponents) and a floor around three. So I pretty much agree with Ness. I think this tactic will lead to either success or civil war unless something else happens. We know that at least Szeth is going to happen, and I can't really tell what the effect will be.

Just a guess, but my recollection is that we have no more full chapters. If my terrible memory is not fooling me, it seems to me we might get partial chapters. Whole chapters might contain spoilers, but excerpts might be safe to do.

Great catch! I definitely agree about hearing a spren in tWoK. Actually, that whole thread is pretty related to this one, in a way. It's actually much earlier in tWoK, you can follow the link above for the details. I wondered about that whispering too, but it is less clear to me that it is external.

From the Seattle signing. Shardlet put a transcript up in one of the two Seattle signing threads, look about 3/4 of the way down. Edit: added link to Shardlet transcript,

Eh, needs more toadhandwavium.

I hope it doesn't end too badly, but I love how Dalinar screws up in his conversation w/Aladar. It just seems like his next step will be to resolve his struggles toward his second ideal. Whether that ideal is "builder" or "guiding", he definitely has some work to do in this book to evolve into the politician his goals require of him. In tWoK, I can fit his struggles as working on either "resolution" or "piety" (although it's easier to see as resolution for me), having worked through that issue for now, he's facing a new challenge. In the meeting that Kaladin observed, he is too strong, where he needs to be mentoring Elhokar and letting him lead IMO. In the meeting w/Aladar he is also too strong, where he needs to be more persuasive, as I see it. These seem perfect for the Radiant to be, working on the second ideal. Kaladin was both very protective and a leader before Syl came to him. I would like to see more signs of a spren in WoR. Edit: added quote

Nice! and maybe "Well, I technically didn't lie and I need to tell 'true lies' to develop my spren bond. "

Suction spren: snap-upvote!

I agree that it is technically a violation of the codes to duel with other people in one's own army. I confess to being biased in favor of Dalinar & co. I also think that the forces of some of the highprinces are really not even allies, much less part of their own army. If the highprinces were accepting the orders of their king (which we know they are not, as Roion did not go on the gem run when ordered to) they would have to be following the codes. As they are not, they are being subjected to military discipline, which generally runs against the codes. It is a politebrutal fiction to say they are a unified force. Constraining themselves to adhere to that fiction is not being honorable and it is not leading. If they duel for Shards with another highprince's vassal, where that highprince is following orders, including following the codes, that would be a real violation of the codes. As FingerstyleFunk quoted above, the codes forbid "needless" dueling. This is arguably needed to create a unified, code-following army.

Two hopefully relevant thoughts: Rock refers to himself as Mafah'liki (spelling approximate) when this ability is mentioned. If all horneaters could do this, would he need a different name for people with the ability? He could just use the word for horneater. So I deduce that not all horneaters can see spren. Syl is surprised that Rock can see her. I infer that she is not choosing to be seen by him, and further none of the other spren are either.

I think so. there is more discussion here and here.

I was not saying that he should have recognized that Kaladin was a budding surgebinder, but he is obviously way too ignorant to be making the judgements he makes. From an in-world utilitarian POV, he could have deprived the anti-voidbringer forces of a vital champion. I don't think any more information would affect how he is judged, although subsequent actions might. Basically, IMO, choosing the framework determines the judgement. From an in-world utilitarian POV - The out-of-world known meta outcome determines that he will pass from his subjective POV - auto-pass by actions - guilty of first degree murder, human trafficking, assault (branding) and grand larceny - He can be as heroic as he wants from here on out, but he has still earned the highest punishment available. If he ever gets any integrity, he will submit himself to it voluntarily. I think my preference is obvious, but that doesn't make it right. I want everybody to enjoy the story in a way that works for them. This! This!

Welcome! Introductory upvote! Paragraphs are your friend. I like the bullet points at the end. At the end, in Dalinar's last vision, Honor seemingly says something like "Odium has killed me". How does that fit?

I agree. A scabbard awakened with either a protective purpose+similar investiture or a "much" greater investiture might work. I enjoyed realizing why Shardblades are stored in Shardlet's attic and not scabbarded. I don't know that it matters, as I am hoping that Wit's sword turn out to be awakened rather than a Shardblade. Nightblood seems to operate differently than a Shardblade.

I claim, in universe, that Amaram does not see the information he needs to make an informed decision when it is right in front of him. He sees Kaladin as one of "a few darkeyed spearmen", and could as easily have killed him as enslaved him. The ardent's teachings and societal prejudices have blinded him to the reality that he witnessed when Kaladin took down the Shardbearer. Surgebinders are likely to be vital in the resistance to the voidbringers that Amaram talks about. If you claim that Amaram must be judged on his own understanding, in-world, then will his actions always be justified? Amen, brother (sister? your profile doesn't say, but sibling just doesn't have that ring). It can't be total failure, nor can it be too predictable.

Good point! Szeth seems to think that, even when heavily infused, he is vulnerable to a Shardblade. I think it may take investiture + resistant purpose, as Shardplate has. Shardblades seem special that way, as I think an infused Kaladin will be immune to Szeth's lashing-traps. As long as you awakened the scabbard with a resistant purpose, it seems like it might work.

Thank you Aether! Based on meta-reasoning. I just don't think Brandon wants to write five or ten books where the ending is: "The desolation complete, Odium picked up the last scraps of his investiture from the environs of the obliterated planet, secure in the knowledge that nobody could pick up the Shards of either Honor or Cultivation, as there was no longer anything but void. As the last sentient being had died, Shadesmar in this area had contracted to nothingness. It was time to deal with Harmony ..." I don't think we want to read that story either. Some of our heroes may die, but it will not have been in vain. I don't think it would do anything for the sales, once the ending became known.

The whole supercontinent could be less than halfway around the planet, leaving the west most distant from Origin. If we accept Satsuoni's storm model, that must be the case, as he has essentially a single wave of storm engulfing the planet. from east to west Is there evidence that Honor is at the Origin?

How would you keep a Shardblade in a scabbard? I guess you could make the scabbard out of Shardplate, but that might look rather odd. If the blade touches the side of the scabbard, it goes right through, then through whatever is nearby, including the person who just accidentally jostled you.

The consequentialist argument is actually not totally invalid. I even make it myself in the same post when I argue that Szeth may have to be killed, even if he is insane, if he can't be restrained somehow. Yes, society is forced to make choices in the certainty of harm. Medicine is an example of this. That is why we have medical review boards, clinical trials, peer-reviewed journals and judicial oversight. One of the purposes of this, I believe, is to eliminate personal gain from the evaluation of the outcome. Another purpose, IMO, is to make sure that all options are considered. Amaram's choice is tainted in both ways, IMO. You make an excellent point that things are not as black and white as I say. But I think we can see the differences between the scenarios you present and Amaram's choices. Contrived scenarios with buttons and known deaths don't apply in Amaram's case. He does not know what will happen if he doesn't take up the Shards. Since we know that civilization will somehow survive the final Desolation, the consequentialist judgement will always favor Amaram. If this were not a story where Kaladin has to make it up from the dregs and the ultimate outcome will not be planetary annihilation, it might well be that Amaram could be more effective with a loyal Shardbearer at his side than with Shards. His lust for the Shards will taint his evaluation of outcomes and options. When deciding that Amaram was willing to give up the Shards, please consider his justification for taking them. His justification for the murder, enslavement and stealing applies equally well whether Coreb or Kaladin had kept the Shards. Discussion of what would have happened if Amaram had offered Kaladin the Shards is fortunately moot, as Amaram did not do so. He did ask why Kaladin went to his defense, but that is all. Kaladin claimed the Shards anyway, saying "Those Shards are mine". Amaram did what he did. After a reread, I claim there is no support in the text for the notion that Amaram would have given up the Shards to Kaladin if he had wanted them for himself at that point.

Szeth's motivation is revealed on tWoK. He would like to have his spirit continue to exist in the stone after he dies rather than cease to exist . It seems entirely selfish, but apparently sensible(?) within the Stone Shaman religious culture. Our modern society does make exceptions for the insane when they can be prevented from doing harm. However, insane or not, responsible or not, I think a modern society would say that he must be stopped and if necessary to stop him continuing to murder, killed. Obviously a padded cell w/no stormlight would be more humane. So, in a way, insanity or responsibility is irrelevant. Well, the religion seems to inform his POV, which then drives his choices. From I-6: Anybody's actions can be justified within their own POV. Amaram murdered, enslaved and stole from his most loyal followers because of how he saw the world. Dalinar is progressing toward seeing the world a different way, which is why he could give up a Shardblade for a thousand darkeyed slaves. Some obvious elements of Amaram's POV are that darkeyes are inferior and that the end can justify any means on occasion. If we want to fairly judge Amaram, I think we would have to ignore his POV. The consequentialist argument about greater good seems insane to me as we can never know what happens down any other road than the one we travel, so any comparison is hypothetical. The same logic unfortuanately applies to Mr. T. No matter how much of a genius he is, he would need to have perfect knowledge of everything and be able to predict all outcomes to be right. I don't think that is possible, so he will make assumptions based on his world view. We can see the results of his assumptions. I think judgement has to be based on actions, as intentions and greater good arguments can be used to justify anything, and greater good arguments are unverifiable. Do we know Amaram would have given Kaladin the Shards if he had accepted them? Could the offer have been a trap to ease the tortured justifications in Amaram's mind? What if Amaram had said "I will kill your men, enslave you and steal the Shards if you don't take them?" I think Kaladin would have taken the Shards to save his men. He could always give them away later. Amaram had choices and justifications, but potentially offering the Shards and wrestling with the decision seem to me irrelevant to any judgement. Edit: added Szeth quote

Could be attracting a spren, but I think attracting a spren has to do with the attributes and maybe something emotional or cognitive, depending on the spren. For Kaladin: Syl claims it was the gratitude of the young men in Kaladin's platoon. I was thinking it could be the windrunner attributes: protecting and leading. For Shallan: Creativity! The lightweaver primary attribute Pattern seems to like "true lies", so her past might have helped

I like the sound of this one best of those I've heard so far. The best I've been able to come up with is "I will inspire those who lack faith". Argent's exposition fits pretty well for me also. I see some foreshadowing:

There are a number of possibilities. Did any of the Heralds unbond their blades (or does that even work with Honorblades)? We know that someone went back and got their Honorblade. Did they get any other Honorblades? When Kalak comes to the meetingplace, Jezrien didn't know if he had survived. Jezrien's blade is not with the others. If Jezrien was planning on leaving the blade, why didn't he plant it in the circle with the others? If Kalak hadn't shown, would he have planted his blade?

I went for Dalinar. He's been studying and is starting to live "Journey before Destination" and his armor has gone glowy on occasion. It's too bad we don't get a big surge of stormlight for doing the first ideal. Can we even be sure that anyone has the first ideal before they get the second? Is there a way to know when someone "gets" the first ideal?