teknopathetic

Vo Returns for a week (but might not be true) Has children in that time (which we still don't know how to do but apparently he did somehow) ? All legitimate heirs have extra abilities Hair Colour Changes (that make Siri and Vivenna hungry, which is a little bit like Lift) Increased affinity for commanding (according to Vasher) Other things? So yeah? If Vivenna got cut, could she heal that? Kind of seems within the realm of possibility, right? She can regrow her hair I think, so if she/soceity believed she could heal her skin, maybe she could?

The Royal locks thing is still EXTREMELY strange. It only touches people who are perceived as legitimate heirs to the throne as determined by ???? (the royal family? Endowment? The populace). Is this genetic? Can any member of the royal family have the royal locks if they simply believed they were in line to the throne? Could it change? Like, all the heirs die so a 2nd cousin or bastard child is now next in line? That is one weird instigation of investiture. It makes me wonder if a command was used or something to permanently give some advantages to the royal family's decedents.

On my reading I took The Deniers of Masks as the forces of Trell, but that was just my read. Also, doesn't the whole "priests died frozen in supplication" and "we heard to from the lips of a dying priest" all sound little staged? The whole thing is just so staged. Would Kelsier let his people freeze to death? Seems more likely someone dragged those bodies there and placed them in a prayer position, and then someone had orders to leak the information about the temple at a certain point. I also like Argent's Iri idea. Seems like if Kelsier wanted to make a fortress, he might go ask the people who's fortress he was just in.

I wonder if a Gold Misting would be able to make a stamp that is "correct" so to speak. Gold seems to show you a Gold-shadow that somehow "exists", so if a Forger were to create that perfectly, what would happen? And the Gold Shadow is even weirder. A stamped person would have a different Gold Shadow Dirigible (paraphrased) If Shai had a gold shadow, and she used one of her Essence Stamps, would her gold shadow change to reflect her new self? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, because she is changing her soul so the gold shadow changes.

Shallan/Veil in RoW Kolinar realizing that their scheme with the bread delivery for the poor was actually making everything 1000 times worse is the saddest scene in the Cosmere for me. The speech from the kid about having to wait around all day for Shallan was devastating (and then what came next of course was also horrid). Also. it spoke to me on a metaphorical level concerning the harms some volunteer charity groups do when they bust into a region without knowing anything of what is going on in the local community. People can do a lot of harm when they try to give charity without taking the time to learn what the people on the ground actually want or need or have capacity for.

We gotta get the Godking a Nahel bond.

The eyebrows confuse me too. Can a Thay lan have children with a Veden or other regions? What do people in border zones look like? Are there humonoid spren that have Theylan eyebrows? Are Theylans "from" Ashyn or are they a separate migrant group? ---- As for this, hair follicles have built in when-to-fall-out instructions. This sometimes goes faulty in individual hairs, but all in all hair has terminal length.

The nightmares to me seemed like the shadow-items that are created on Yumi's planet.

To me, Ishar might not be the same as the other heralds in terms of feeling the Oathpact due to the fact that Ishar was the one who forged the Oathpact. The regular heralds within the Oathpact cannot feel a go-to-Braize death, but maybe the creator of the Oathpact might be able to feel changes in it. I think it makes sense that Ishar might be more sensitive than others in this regard as someone who somehow manipulated bonds in such a powerful way. Since Ishar made the strings of connection, him feeling them acutely makes sense to me. And when it comes to Kelek at the renouncing, the heralds had already dispersed before Kelek was even done fighting. If Ishar left before Kelek was done fighting, then those who remained to wait for a bit wouldn't know the fate of Kelek. From Ishars POV, it doesn't really matter if Kelek dies or not - as long as Taln is dead the plan is fine. If Kelek dies a little after the renunciation, so much the better as far as Ishar would care (though, I have always been very very suspicious of the fact no one died except Taln though. This has always reeked of conspiracy). We just know Ishar was the one who forged the Oathpact without any knowledge of who/what else was involved. For all we know, it was Ishar and a Dawnshard or Ishar with some leftover Ashyn artifact or Ishar and his Honourblade. There just isn't any information here. Honour is involved in the binding of Odium, but that is not the same thing as the Oathpact. The Oathpact is a newer thing than trapping Odium in the system. The Oathpact, as far as we know, is just about trapping Fused. And as far as we know, this was something Ishar did. We have a WOB that Honour was involved, but how much is anyone's guess. And just because Honour was involved doesn't mean Honour/Stormfavast-Shadow would feel anything.

1. Shai 2. Shallan 3. Silence 4. Dalinar 5. Sazed

Devotion sounds like a safe bet. If not that, Endowment. If I can have two, then I choose Whimsey and Cultivation together. To have a whimsical creator guiding the evolution of a planet would be amazing.

I don't know if I missed something, but I never thought the Everstorm was confirmed to return the Fused to Roshar 100% by itself with no other steps needed. My understanding was that the Everstorm was a chunk of the Braize-Storm brought over to Roshar, and that the Everstorm would reconnect the Singer's to their identity and maybe return Voidspren for potential use (maybe - timeline here is off too). However, I never got the impression that Fused could return this way until a Herald had broken. The impression I got was that the Storm was a way of getting back in Roshar, but that there were going to be more steps needed to get the Fused back and to then start using the Everstorm as a Spawn-Point. Ulim: "It will take something big to restore the minds of the singers around the world. So we’re going to prime the pump, so to speak, with your people. Get them into stormform and pull the big storm over from Shadesmar. Odium thinks it will work, and considering he’s anything but a little god, we are going to do what he says." Re-Connecting the Singers is not anything to do with ending the Oathpact, as far as I can tell. This needs to be just a step towards something else. It seemed to me that getting the Everstorm on the board would allow for Odium to have soldiers again (sort of like what Mishram was doing). Then Odium's plan ends up being a moot point, as something causes Taln to return BEFORE the Everstorm is in the Physical realm. Before is the key part here I think. Taln returning AFTER the Everstorm summonming would mean he Everstom had the ability to call Fused without a broken herald, but since Taln came back BEFORE the Everstorm, we just dont know what is allowing what. I think something happened to Chana, and this caused the Everstorm timeline to near match the Oathpact timeline. What actually happened with Chana is hard to say, as it appears a glowing soul was in the Davar house for several years, and then we don't know how long a herald could hide on Braize if the herald's arrival was 100% unexpected. We also don't know what Chana did once she returned to Braize. Since we have Nale defecting, so who knows what Chana has agreed to do now that she is at the mercy of Odium again.

That was a concern for many people. Something in the stormlight 5 prologue might potentially shed some light the Everstorm vs a Herald Breaking debate, but we can’t speak of that in this thread. Maybe I should make a new one for post S5P readers to avoid accidental spoilers for people.

Originally, the thing that tipped me off to this theory is the glowing light that Lin Davar puts in the safe. If we go with this theory being true, what do we think the glowing light was? This detail truly was the thing that pulled this theory together. Pattern was not there, so he is not a witness to the event and is not reliable in any way. Does anyone else think Shallan didn’t hallucinate the light as a child? What did get out in the safe and wad it a gem heart? Actually the soul of a herald? Something else?

Before SP5 came out and before the WoB that Taln Never Broke, I posted a theory that Shallan’s mom is Chana in a thread called “Taln Wasn’t the Herald Who Broke - It was Chanarach”. That theory became somewhat infamous with many people falling on both sides of believing it. The theory became more tolerated when we got the WoB that Taln Never Broke, and then S5P added a bit more circumstantial evidence as well if you’ve read SP5, then you may have noticed some additional information about one of the heralds that lends some credence to this theory. What happens in the S5P i am personally a little worried Brandon is trolling me specifically haha, but we will see!

No worries Mdross81! Thanks for considering it. We for sure could be wrong, but it fun to have a place to discuss. And to be fair, some people have felt the Stormfather has been sketch from the start. So maybe I did just miss the foreshadowing (though I still think it is Ishar haha) --------------------------------------------------- But here are my rebuttals to your first point: On Pulling People Into the Visions Dalinar and the Potter only experienced the vision when the Highstorm rages by. The visions, pre-bond, seem to be quite passive and automatic The Stormfather cannot just pull in anyone whenever he wants. He has to wait for the Highstorm to roll past Queen Then to pull her in to a vision that Dalinar wants her to see. The Stormfather and Dalinar explicitly wait for a Highstorm for this Multi-City vision-experience to go down, so this goes against what we see Gavilar doing. Bondsmith Dalinar, not the Stormfather, can touch people and bring them in to a vision when these people are in the same room as him. And Dalinar is able to control and summon the visions at will only after he has bonded the Stormfather Dalinar cannot pull people in from a distance, and the Stormfather cannot pull in people like Then unless those people are near a highstorm So to me, it doesn't seem like the Stormfather can take in unbonded people without a High Storm A bonsmith, however, absolutely can pull people into visions at will. On Seeing Into Buildings [Granted, I need to do a re-read and pay attention to this specifically. I could misremember here] We also get from Riding the Winds that the Stormfather cannot see into buildings (though can do so after bonded with Dalinar and when Dalinar is inside one of those buildings). So how is the Stormfather able to mind-talk specifically with Gavilar AND be able to see what is going on in a room? There is no bond and there is no Highstorm, so how is that working? This is different from what we normally see. There are times when the Stormfather booms something into a room, but full on mental conversations didn't come until a bond started. So is the Stormfather lying about there being a bond? Or is something weird going on here?

Making a Nightblood must be up there in Power level, so awakening has to be a top contender. I would like to know what Divine Breaths can do or what a God-king can do as they progress to the n+1 Heightening. I suspect a divine breath is extremely powerful in the right hands, but we just haven't seen their culture figure out what is possible there since the magic appears to be so new and because divine breaths are hard to come by.

To me, it is Brandon starting to add depth to what the Heralds were up to. If the final 5 books are going to be herald focused, then I would expect to see more and more Herald machinations. Ishar has been hinted at as a villain for a very long time, so I am happy to get hints of what he had been doing up until the night of Gavilar's death. Ishar seems like he was still engaging in the world, so I believe he would have been active in some way. Having him manipulate Gavilar lets us see what the big bad herald has been doing. We know Ishar has been doing things, so why not this thing. We don't have to add anything to the story if it was just Ishar doing Ishar stuff. If we assume the Stormfather was really talking to Gavilar 100%, then we now have to fit in another potentially antagonistic figure into the plot were there has been no foreshadowing of such a thing. If the Stormfather can act like he did with Gavilar, then the Stormfather is not who we think he is. We really have to distrust the Stormfather if we believe Gavilar was talking to him because that Stormfather says some deeply problematic things in what appears to be complete earnestness. I guess I like the payoff of the "Ishar is maybe evil" foreshadowing we have been getting in all the books, and I just feel there would have been hints of Stormfather sneakiness if the Stormfather had been a player for a while. I don't need another reveal - I am hoping for want more depth and the players as they stand. The narrative payoff for me is more things like "Venli's old gods tricked her, and Gavilar's old gods did the same" sort of parallelism. We also know Gavilar's new goal is to fins out more about Oath-Sworn Sane-Ishar and the Oathpact, so we can already see tendrils of storytelling connecting these two plot points moving forward in book 5. Maybe for drama Ishar connects Gavilar with Dalinar for a little chin-wag? There are a lot of options IMO.

It would be hilarious if Brandon knew about this theory and is trolling with the SP5 prologue hints.

This might not be a lie though. It is possible the Stormfather just assumed it had to be Taln that had broken. It makes sense seeing as that had been the status-quo for 4000 years. I think anyone who was anyone assumed Taln must have broken. Even Ash thinks Taln broke. If it is a lie and the Stormfather lied to Dalinar, I wonder why he didn’t want anyone to know about Chana (or whoever) broke.

Tanavast being still around could be interesting for sure! That would be almost like the Stormfaker and Stormfather theories were both true since Tanavast Sort of is the Stormfather haha. And as for the narrative, I also like the idea of the Stormfather being a liar. I would love to see someone go through and find the times it looks like the Stormfather was actively lying to someone. From what I recall it doesn't happen, but if it does, then I would be much more open to the idea that the S5 Voice is the real Stormfather. I have a hard time thinking Gavilar's entity realized that lying was bad and that he shouldn't do it no more.

I am going to PM you on the tone of your response as you asked us to earlier.

1. Ash reacting is information we would have expected. The Stormfather reacting is not something we knew to be the case. The Stormfather has never hinted at a connection to the Oathpact. Yes, we could say because Honour died Dalinar/Stormfather can make decisions about the trapping of Odium, but that doesnt mean the Stormfather or Dalinar would feel the oathpact, or even more feel it so much that they lose control and scream about it. Do we think an event would overwhelm a being like the Stormfather? And that we wouldn't even hear a rumble of thunder? And sure, it is very possible to think that the Stormfather would feel a tickle, but a full blown scream? My thought before S5 would have been "The Stormfather and/or Dalianr may be able to feel changes in the oathpact and be aware of them on some level". I don't think anyone would have said "The Stormfather and/or Dalinar would lose physical control and begin screaming at the non-true death of a herald" The Stormfather feeling something could have been true, and that is fine, but our attention had never been drawn there despite if what you think is true, the Stormfather being very interested in the Oathpact overall. If the Stormfather can feel the connection, this would have been a good place to drop that. And if the Stormfather can feel it, then should Dalinar have been able to sense something as well? Since Dalinar, not the Stormfather, isa actually the one who can cancel Odium's prison, so why not have Dalinar feel it too? Maybe Dalinar hear a scream or thunder or felt a tug in his belly, but we see no hint of it? If Dalinar did, it is also odd not to mention that fact anywhere. Brandon does not have to mention it, but we are allowed to raise an eye-brow at his decisions here. I think it wasn't mentioned because it never happened, and we have just as much evidence for my thought as for yours. 2. We dont understand what the end of a Desolation even is. What we do know is that they came to a decision before Kelek was done and that people did not wait for him to be done before they left the spot. If Ishar leaves before Kelek is done, the other Herlads have no way of knowing. The Bondsmith who made the Oathpact is just as reasonable to consider sensitive to herald deaths as the Stormfather might be, if not more so. 3. Something Ishar did on Ashym made Ashyn uninhabitable and caused burns all over many of the refugees. I have seen a WOB that Ashyn pre-calamity had different initiation than the germ one that Brandon proposed in an unpublished work. 4. Coppermind: Fortune is a Spiritual property in the cosmere,[2] related to luck, seeing the future, or versions of the future.[3] The precise nature of Fortune and how it functions and is used, is currently unclear. Fortune has been described as "luck" by less cosmere-aware groups, such as the Terris three centuries after the Catacendre.[4] However, it is clear from other individuals that are more cosmere-aware that Fortune is more than simple luck. It's a way of knowing things you would not know otherwise,[5] and a way in which one can see the future.[3] It is implied that Fortune is a thing one can access[6] and draw upon.[7] Someone drawing upon Fortune can lead to events that appear to be coincidence. People can quibble, but Fortune is closer to Luck than Fortune is to many many other things. 5. I disagree. Kelek says he is getting worse. Ash seems to have been a somewhat crazy but consistent infiltrator who managed to hold together a crew before, but now has changed her goals and motivations entirely. Nale has changed his opinions and allegiances due to recent events. One herald got themselves murdered which is a big change IMO. Heck, one herald might even have gone to help Taravangian after the night of Gavilar's death. Many heralds have changed in the past 6 years - it is just Ishar may have known first and changed sooner. The Night of Gavilar's death leads to bigger changes in the Heralds than they have likely seen in 4000 years.

1. If the Stormfather did feel the true death, then did Brandon decided not to show it to us or mention the Stormfather felt it in RoW. If the Stormfather being involved in the Oathpact this is going to be a plot point in the start of the next book, why not pepper in some hints in RoW? Why not give us a hint that the Stormfather is in anyway involved with the Oathpac? Brandon plotted RoW and S5 together, so some direct choices were made here on this issue. IMO, he has intentionally not shown us the Stormfather's reaction in RoW. If we detect an authorial choice like this, we can speculate. I see 4 possible conclusions: 1. Brandon withheld the fact that the Stormfather felt Jezrian die from us for some narrative reason. He did not want us knowing that yet. 2. Brandon forgot to show us that the Stormfather reacted. This was an error or an issue with draft changes. 3. The Stormfather did not feel anything the day Jezrian died and this is a clue pointing towards an imposter in S5 4. The Stormfather would not feel a true death for some reason we do not understand, but did feel Chana die in S5 I choose number 3 because I think it is the easiest explanation. If you choose 1, you need to consider why Brandon would hide such seemingly innocuous information from us. Why would we care if the Stormfather felt it before the revelations of S5? 2. It seems like Ishar told the others to abandon the Oathpact with when just a single herald had died, but before all the fighting was complete. It is odd, specifically odd, that the group did not wait for Kelek to finish his fighting and get to the meeting point. It is completely within reason that Ishar said "One of us has died and that is enough. I am leaving. Good luck to Kelek. It doesnt matter if I feel his death later or not. Wait for him if yo want but I am out of here". 3. To my knowledge, Ashyn magic was not disease based before the explosion. And to what extend Brandon may change Ashyn magic is always open. 4. Ishar is called the Herald of Luck. 5. Ishar seems to have started his God King behavior right about the same time Gavilar and another Herald died. We know the Tukar thing started about 6 years from present day. So, we can detect a change in what Ishar was doing starting at almost the exact time the Voice says it will change tactics as well. We have no information at all about what Ishar was like before his Tukar war 6 years ago.

Hey @Frustration "Theory" and "Logic" are not always the same from context to context. Specifically, logical scrutiny is going to follow different norms between Science and Literature. Heck, even scientific fields have vastly different definitions of evidence (take the definition of "acceptable statistical chance" between Medical Guidelines vs Particle Physics. They are VASTLY different when defining what is likely "evidence") We know, as theorizers, that certain elements are being deliberately hidden from us by Brandon for narrative reasons. Because there is explicit deception on the part of the author, we will never have all the premises and bits of evidence necessary to prove a twist. We even known that some elements may never be explicitly explained. We are not operating in a world where all the details are extant or provable. We are not in a particle collider. We are absolutely rational agents if we utilize both inductive and deductive reasoning when searching for "intentional deception" or "literary device". The author has intentionally seeded the stories with twists, and there are different logical tools to find things like that. It is rational to gather evidence bit by bit and to determine what consistent statements follow from that evidence. However, we know the author at times will intentionally hide, twist, or misrepresent the evidence, so this will never be satisfactory. it is rational to start with a statement considered true as presented to us by the Author, and to examine the evidence/premises that are needed to support that conclusion. This is actually quite useful, as we know the author will intentionally make us believe things that are later shown to be false. We should not always trust the author as he is known to be intentionally deceptive. If you know there is a high potential for deception, you take the statement they give you and you rip apart the evidence they have provided. As the Italic Voice is being explicitly deceptive to Gavilar, and since this is extremely new behavior compared to the previous 4 books, I am going into it with skepticism. This is the perfect opportunity for an author to deceive the reader.