Pathfinder

So given that there is still much debate on how transportation works on Roshar, I thought to list "transportation" and how it manifests across any magic systems and go over what we know and what we do not know. I will also tag @Karger and @The traveller and @Isilel and @Calderis and @Quantus (I put a lot of ands and spaces because that seems to work to tag multiple people) to continue the discussion that started on the Peacetime Surgebinders thread because I mentioned that I thought an elscaller could do direct teleportation. So without further ado, here we go. So it seems like we only have two planets so far that have power systems that involve "teleportation" (not counting perpendicularities created via Shards). We have Sel, and Roshar. I will discuss each, and include WoB (spoilered for sanity sake) regarding them. I will then for each put conclusions I think we can all agree with, and then conclusions that are currently being disputed. Then I think since we have all the information in one place to reference, we can discuss why we think things work one way or the other. Sel Elantrian using Aon Tia 1. Provides instantaneous transfer of matter from one location to another (evidence, we literally see it occur in book via PoV of Raoden, and then the subsequent teleports) 2. Requires the user to draw the Aon correctly, and include proper modifiers (evidence, we literally see it occur in book via PoV of Raoden, and then the subsequent teleports) 3. These modifiers include direction, distance, and a rule brick to judge that distance (take Raoden's stride as unit of measurement. Distance is then however many Raoden strides to target location. evidence, we literally see it occur in book via PoV of Raoden, and then the subsequent teleports) 4. Aon Tia is still a relative gamble despite measurements and modifiers, or at least in Raoden's case it was. (evidence, WoB below) 5. "Strength" of teleport (like all aons) is reliant on proximity to Elantris. Raoden was able to teleport from Elantris to Teod, but once there was barely able to teleport ten feet. This is a continuous effect, and not because the power was just restored, because the same occured for Galladon and the other Elantrians. They were able to make the distance, but had to take the long way back. (evidence, we literally see it occur in book via PoV of Raoden, and then the subsequent teleports) 6. Aon Tia put into plates can be used to instantaneously transport from one end of the city to another repeatedly without drawing, or measurements required. (evidence, we literally see it occur in book via PoV of Raoden when he was a child, and Galladon's testimony) 7. Aon Tia fabrials can be made to (albeit weaker) teleport the user without needing to draw an aon (evidence, WoB below) 8. Aon Tia can theoretically teleport the user off world to another planet (evidence, WoB below) Dakhor 1. Provides instantaneous transportation of matter from one location to another (evidence, we literally see it from Hrathen's PoV in the book) 2. Does not require modifications or calculations. (evidence, Hrathen's PoV. All that is required is the Dakhor monks in a circle, all remain stationary, Dakhor sacrifice in center, then activate while touching whatever they want to bring with them.) 3. Place of origin does not seem to matter. (evidence, the teleport originated in Elantris, and terminated in Teod. Hrathen mentioned Dilaf using a teleport to go from one part of the monastery to another part. So it does not matter if the origin is Elantris, or a Dakhor monastery, it does not effect the "strength" of the teleport) 4. Teleportation functions off the loss of life (evidence, WoB below) Roshar (I will do Oathgates first because we have more information on them, then transportation) Oathgate 1. Provides instantaneous transportation of matter from one specific location to another (evidence, shown repeatedly from the end of Words of Radiance through all of Oathbringer as well as WoB below) 2. Oathgate travel, at this time, goes the speed of light (evidence, WoB below) 3. Oathgates could potentially go to other planets (evidence, WoB below) 4. Oathgate travel does not require any calculations or specific powers (other than a living shardblade and stormlight) to travel between set locations at this time (evidence, numerous PoVs in the books) The Surge of Transportation (the main event, specifically what we know for sure first) 1. allows the user to transfer from the physical to the cognitive, and the cognitive to the physical. This requires stormlight to accomplish. A spren can pull their radiant through from the physical to the cognitive as long as the radiant has the stormlight to do so. It is easier to go from the physical to the cognitive, than the cognitive to the physical. A perpendicularity is not required as using the surge creates a miniature one(evidence, we have seen it occur with Jasnah in the deleted scene, as well as WoB below) 2. Transportation (at least for elsecallers) allows for travel to other worlds. (evidence, WoB below. In interest of full disclosure, WoB could mean that the elsecaller transfers to cognitive and then walks to another planet to "world hop". So not conclusively stating instant travel to other planets) 3. Transportation is not precise (evidence, WoB below) 4. Transportation can be used on other people. Whether that means "force push" or "transport" the target person, is open to interpretation. Though I personally lean towards "transporting" the person (evidence, WoB below) Now the portion that is disputed (so statements will be made, but the assumption is they are all my personal interpretations, and can be freely disagreed with). The surge of transportation can be used for instantaneous travel 1. The spren that Kaza sees when she soulcasts, is similar to the spren at the oathgate. As the only spren we know of that provides both the surge of transformation (soulcasting) as transportation, the assumption here is in both cases it is an Ink spren which are the spren of Elsecallers (WoB below) 2. The surge of transportation is the power by which the Oathgates are made. Oathgates mimic the surge of Transportation. So to me, if the oathgates are created via the surge of transportation, and are made to mimic the surge, then then the two should function the same. (WoB below) 3. The surge of transportation can do more than just go between the physical realm and cognitive realm. (WoB below) 4. Worldhoppers can teleport directly between planets. Elsecallers can world hop without perpendicularities. Although that does not necessarily mean that Elsecallers would teleport directly between planets, to me it is potentially possible. (WoB below) So for all that, that is why I think the surge of transportation can provide direct teleportation between two locations. It requires stormlight, it is not precise (even if you know what you are doing), and is difficult without proper training. I liken this to the difference in soulcasting capabilities that we see between Jasnah and Shallan. Transformation is the Elsecaller's primary surge, while it is the secondary surge of Lightweavers. Shallan is far more proficient with illumination than she is with transformation. Renarin is far more proficient with progression than he is with illumination (yes his spren is corrupted, but I think he would still not be as proficient even if he was a normal truthwatcher). Lift is far more proficient with abrasion than she is with progression. Jasnah is far more proficient with transformation than she is with transportation. And finally I believe Venli will be far more proficient with transportation than with cohesion. I believe that because oathgates can do instant, then so should the surge they mimic and are based on. I also believe if instant transfer is possible in two other magic systems, then it would not be far fetched to believe the same could stand for the surge of transportation.

I was just about to say that. I am in the process of making a thread for transportation so we can discuss it further there. I will tag you and traveler.

I put elsecallers for both. The order is my favorite because they have what I believe to be the two most versatile and fun power sets. They can transform anything into anything, and (in my opinion, not to start this on another thread, which I will be making a separate one for that reason) teleportation. I also like that seemingly their oaths give them more latitude. As to why I think I would be a member is I tend to be (in my opinion) logical, and careful in my actions.

The impression I got from your initial post regarding the highstorm was by channeling stormlight from the highstorm, the transporter could transport an obscene number. I was explaining why I do not think that is the case. I have already stated why I do not think transportation as in Sanderson's books would have the effect you posit. Ok, at this point I am lost. I will have to go back and copy your own posts, but I could have sworn you were arguing that radiant transportation can only move someone from the physical to the cognitive, and back again. That oathgates were different and allowed for instantaneous transfer from locations. And that the reason you thought radiants cannot do that, is because if they could, it would be overpowered, and that led us to discuss back and forth the limitations. If you are saying you agree that a radiant can do instantaneous transportation between two locations, then I am at an utter loss as to what we are talking about. Then that comes completely out of left field no where mentioned in this thread that I am not at this point even going to attempt to discuss. Good luck with your theory, to each their own. But in the prior post......you said she arrived ready for combat...... Now you are saying she wasn't? And that if she was she would have reacted immediately? You have to go through the palace to reach the oathgate in kholinar. It is the whole reason why Kaladin and co had to storm the palace, and that was with a whole group to fight with them. You are saying one person can transport into the area, and then assault the palace on their own. Personally I disagree. Because in your initial post that's what you said. That the transporter would transport into the air, and then continue to erratically transport around in the air to fight the flying fused. The longer in the air that transporter is, the greater the momentum, the greater the harm when they finally touch the ground. Otherwise the scenario should be the transporter transports into the air, hits an enemy (assume they can pinpoint the transport to the target), and then transport back to the ground, to then try again. Either way that's a lot of stormlight use, that a jumper didn't worry about. His legs snapped while healing, and it still used up some of the stormlight. Again that is not what I read you initially presenting. What I read you present is you have fliers high in the air. The willshaper is transporting high in the air among them, hitting them from every angle, and then poofing away, to re-appear behind someone else. That to me would cause problems. And again I disagree. The stormlight usage, reorientation, accuracy and where you target would limit that kind of usage. The door passes over him in a split second where ever he is, at any orientation. It is only through teleporting back and forth continually rapidly is he able to open a sustained gate, and where ever the gate is open on the other end remains suspended in air. That is how he is able to flood the room. He teleports back and forth between the lab and the beach creating an opening slightly submerged in the ocean for the water to continually flow through. Otherwise the "Gate" is exactly his own dimensions, flowing across him and whatever he is holding. So to me, no, the way his teleporting functions should not kill momentum, and it certainly shouldn't be predicated on whether the user decides momentum is a thing or not. Cosmerically sure, but again the time bubbles is why I think someone transporting in relation to the planet into mid air, and then falling a bit, to transport again, fall a bit, transport again, fall a bit, and so on, once they return to standing on the planet, will feel all that momentum. Then pick another word and I will use that instead, the point is damage is resultant. In many cases, horrific damage.

A windrunner maintains contact with the highstorm through the entire flight, what is transported does not, otherwise you are just hopping along in space with the highstorm, defeating the purpose of long range teleportation. So if I use a highstorm to teleport myself, there is still a limit on how much stormlight I can hold, thereby how far I can teleport, and I cannot draw more midway, because I will not longer be in contact with the storm. Does that help? Um, then we got confused, because the impression you gave me initially was you were arguing that elsecalling is not instantaneous transportation between two locations. That you stated you had to go from the physical, to the cognitive, and then travel yee old way to the new location, and then transfer back to the physical. I am saying you can go instantly from one location to another location. You then said because of how broken that is, it should not work. I think responded with what I believe are the limitations balancing it and preventing it from being broken. Not sure where the whole argument on imprecision is. Jasnah states that in the book. Brandon states that in WoB. Why is that portion debated? She does not. I quoted the scene. Nothing is instant to me. Hoid had time to see the glow, see the glow resolve into a person, her lean over, groan, and then she notices him. Screamers go directly to the location. Fused followed right after. It happened multiple times in the book. Again you are assuming the willshaper would be able to transport directly next to the oathgate. I assume it would be in the general area, and would still need to get there normally. that does not change he teleports from a flying plane, to the ground, and then after a few minutes, back onto the plane, which should be impossible. The moment he teleported to the ground, he should still me moving the same 2 to 3 hundred miles per hour he was while on the plane. What happens if you stand on a bus going 60 miles per hour, and then the bus hits the brakes? You go flying, because you are still going 60 miles per hour relative to the bus. So if things worked as they should, then when David teleported from the plane to the ground, he should have turned into a blood stain skidmark. Even if that didn't do it, then after teleporting off the plane, if he used the photo to teleport back onto the plane, then he should end up in midair, where the plane was prior to his teleport, not where it is now because it moved. And I am saying because the momentum builds based on how long you fall, and how many times you teleport (again play Portals sometime), it won't be just 5 meters. It will be significant damage, and damage stormlight is wasted on healing. People theorize that Jasnah did a "force push" to send that person flying when Adolin shows up. WoB has Brandon hedge, but potentially disagree. Regarding the "disease" soulcasting, people theorize that it was transferring the momentum. But we: 1. do not know if that is what happened 2. if that is a function of transportation specifically 3. will that work with actual teleportation as well The scenario you illustrated is not nothing. If a radiant is teleporting all over the battle field in midair, every second fighting is momentum built for when the radiant finally returns to the earth, or runs out of stormlight. The damage from such a fall has to be healed, which takes stormlight. The greater the momentum, the greater the damage, the more stormlight is going to have to do to recover from splat I did my best to explain as to why, I guess at this point if you do not see the problem, then repeating it will accomplish nothing. it is grounded as the main character comments on how it breaks physics. He literally explains as he does it how it should work, versus how it actually works. Then he shows tricks and ways to take advantage of how it works counter to how it should. It is a fun word that I think illustrates my point. At this point though I am not sure what continuing this would accomplish.

You may be misunderstanding my point. Let us say you have a gallon jug. You fill it from a water hose. You can fill it as often as you want, but you can only use that jug's amount at a time. So you are still limited in what you can do. So to extend this to what I mean with the surges lashing with a highstorm 1. fill jug with water 2. use jug to fill the lashing so it continues to lash 3. jug is already refilled from being in highstorm 4. use jug to fill the lashing so it continues to lash transportation with a highstorm 1. fill jug with water 2. use jug to transport a set number of people 3. limited number of people vanish 4. jug gets refilled from being in highstorm 5. use jug to transport a new set number of people That is what teleportation is. Instant travel between two points. Jasnah was surprised to see Hoid there, so she was not expecting. Words of Radiance page 1078 The air in front of him blurred, as if heated in a ring near the ground. A streak of light spun about the ring, forming a wall five or sex feet high. It faded immediately - really, it was just an afterimage, as if something glowing had spun in the circle very quickly..... She groaned a long groan, then looked to the side, where Wit stood. He grinned at her. She stabbed her hand out in the blink of an eye, mist twisting around her arm and snapping into the form of a long, thin sword pointed at Wit's neck As shown from Jasnah returning, teleporting in can be noticed, and it takes the teleporter a bit to orientate themselves. So time enough to surround/fire upon. Again, for the reasons I presented, the screamers should be all over the willshaper. It has been a while since I have read the books, but from what I recall there were quite a few instances where David got places he had not been before based on the visual. That's my point. Originally David tests it, and realizes momentum is not maintained. It was only when Cent focused on it, did the momentum become maintained, which is why she was able to build such velocities. Since the transportation user would not be transporting onto anything, the frame of reference would be the planet, so if a transporter (the best word I can use for someone using the surge of transportation), transported from standing still on the ground into midair, and then started to fall, even for a second, and then they transported again, that momentum from falling for even a second would be maintained. So if they fall for another second elsewhere, that is the velocity increasing. Do this enough times, and the transporter has the velocity of someone falling for an extended period of time. The transporter then transports back to the ground, and all that velocity catches up, and they touch the ground with that force and go splat. A more accurate illustration of this would be the video game portals. Jumper the book literally states jumping does not work the way it should, unless you consciously make yourself think that way. Otherwise when David tested it out by jumping off the cliff and teleporting to the ground, he should have (depending on how long he fell) broke his legs. Just like if David teleported from an airplane in flight, to the ground, he should have continued flying forward as 2 or 3 hundred miles per hour since he was going at the speed relative to the plane and turned into paste when he teleported to the ground. Even if that did not occur, by teleporting back to the last location that picture referenced, he should have ended up in midair as the plane continued in its flight. But that is not what happened. He teleported right back into the plane, even though its location relative to the planet changed. He notes this, and comments on how it breaks these concepts. David tested the plane issue while hunting the terrorist. He can leave a plane in flight, and return to it, regardless the sudden changes in relative speed, and location. Why am I concerned? Is because via the reference I gave in mistborn, it does matter in Sanderson's Cosemere. it may not matter in the Jumper world's abilities, but it is reasonable to believe it would in Sanderson's with time bubbles as reference. I just did above. 9 times out of 10, Sanderson keeps his magic grounded in physics. When it breaks physics, there are still rules for the most part. The time bubbles is an example of this. It depends on the relation to an object. In most cases the planet, or a sufficiently large enough body. That's my point. They do not have planes or cars yet, so what is judged relative is the planet, which is why if the transporter did you transportation into the air trick, they would go splat. I will try to explain this again, and see if I can pull up the WoB that support/back this up. The reason why someone using a time bubble isn't immediately shunted out of the bubble (the bubble being stationary while the earth continues to move), is because since the earth is a large enough body to act relative to, the bubble is "attached" to the earth, and moves relative to the earth. That is why: So if the transportation takes place relative to the earth, then any change in momentum relative to the earth would be maintained, and result in splat. edit: these aren't the best WoB on time bubbles, but there are a whole lot and I do not have the time to dig so deeply to find the exact ones I am thinking of: Kurkistan Okay, so I'm contractually obligated to ask about time bubbles one more time. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Kurkistan So what's up with frame of reference for time bubbles; in that obviously if you make a bubble and it's still it's not really still, like time moves differently but-- Brandon Sanderson We deal with that a little bit in Era 2 Book 2 [Shadows of Self], where we talk about the fact that you know-- obviously the bubble is moving with the planet. So they're not-- the frame of reference is not absolute. Kurkistan Yeah. Brandon Sanderson And so we talk about sorta' the idea of mass and momentum and time bubbles and things like that. Kurkistan Okay. Brandon Sanderson For instance you can make a time bubble on a train. Kurkistan Oh and it stays on the train?! Brandon Sanderson Yes, but when you start catching stuff off of the train, it's gonna' jar each time, and it's probably going to ruin your time bubble, right? Kurkistan So does it get it's "anchor" from-- it's asking all the things that are within it what they think "still" is? Brandon Sanderson Yes. That's a good way of looking at it. Frame of reference for the Cognitive things around. Make sense? Kurkistan Okay, the things around or the things within it, specifically? Brandon Sanderson The things that it's cutting into, specifically, but yeah. Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015) Kurkistan If you are standing inside of a time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds? On that line of reasoning, what would happen to a train and its occupants if Marasi stood next to railroad tracks holding up a Cadmium bubble while that train sped by? Brandon Sanderson In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

So I totally agree that Stormlight would make an amazing war game, and I have been saying that for a long time now, though my only disagreement is between real time versus tactical. I think stormlight would work as a strategy/tactical RPG. The reason for the distinction is a tactical RPG would open up leveling (for oath advancement) and more surgebased uses compared to a real time strategy game (to me). A lot of how fire emblem currently works, with the abilities would be very easily translated to stormlight.

When a windrunner is using a highstorm to fly, it is because (to me), they are using the highstorm to continually fuel the lash they are maintaining. From what we have seen of Szeth and Kaladin, there is a limit to how much stormlight a radiant can hold at a time. They draw as much stormlight as they can till they are "filled to the brim" and after they use that stormlight, they need to draw more. With a highstorm, they can continually "top off" from the highstorm as they fly with it, channeling that stormlight to the lashing to maintain it. That (to me) would not happen with transportation. It seems to me more of a one and done moment. Could an elsecaller/willshaper standing in a highstorm keep transporting in multiple waves? Sure! But that is a difference to me between transporting 1,000,000 in one go, versus transporting 100, then another 100, then another 100, then another 100, then another 100, then the highstorm has passed. Transportation seems to work as a "gate" but not one that is maintained. As in it opens, you pass through, it closes. It is not a passage way that can be held open. The best example I can give is the novel Jumper (not the movie), so unfortunately if you have not read the book, the analogy is difficult to elaborate on. And personally for all the reasons I already gave, I disagree. I do not see why oathgates should be capable of instant transmission, but not radiants who have the surge. It has already been commented the inaccuracy of transportation. Regardless they would not need the oathgates if they had a willshaper to begin with. They could have moved the troops closer to then march on Kholinar. Just like you do not need soulcasters the fabrials as much if you have a radiant who can soulcast. Just like you do not need regrowth fabrials when you have radiants with regrowth. Surge fabrials allow for greater versatility (like in the vision, the windrunner, and the other radiant have the fabrial to heal, so they wouldn't have to bring an extra person), but depending on your numbers, and access, it will affect how you employ your tactics. But changing tactics does not make something broken. It means thinking of ways to use the abilities, and how to deal with them. Oathgates allow you to get from point A to point B every time with an upper limit. Radiants allow you to go from point A to the general area of point B, with an upper limit. Transporting to an enemy fortification is no different than windrunners flying over and dropping in. Jasnah was glowing with the after image of Ivory spinning around her when she arrived to run into Hoid. I think the screamers would most definitely notice that. Willshaper is flown there. I am assuming you are positing the willshaper used line of sight from a cliffside or such to scout the city to transport in? So willshaper transports in, and ends up outside the palace for instance (as we said it is not pinpoint accuracy). Now the screamers zero in on the willshaper, calling all the corrupted guards to his or her location. He or she either has to fight their way to the oathgate, where Sja-anat contacted Shallan, and no one else, so using the oathgate would have killed the willshaper as originally intended. Further, Odium thought Shallan was an elsecaller. If it was as easy as you posit, why would Odium have let things go the way they did? Odium's plan was this: 1. Windrunner, elsecaller, and general group show up 2. Group fights to the oathgate 3. Group activates oathgate, killing them and the troops on the other end. Instead Shallan was able to make contact with Sja-anat. She had the oathgate do something that radiants we know can do, shunt them into the cognitive realm, instead of killing them as intended. Even if an elsecaller could only go back and forth between the cognitive realm and the physical realm, Odium's plan should not have worked (not including sja-anat), because the elsecaller could have just transitioned back to the physical. So hopping around like you are claiming can be done if transportation can teleport, is not as simple as that. Ah so you have! Sorry I am going through post by post. In Jumper, the user has multiple things that defy physics that benefit them 1. All a Jumper needs is a clear image of a location for pinpoint accuracy in teleporting. That includes an old video, despite things having potentially changes at the target location 2. A jumper loses all momentum, unless they intend to have momentum. So if someone physically jumps off a cliff, and then teleports to the ground, they will not impact with the same momentum they built from falling before they teleported. This is only changed by the main character's daughter, who learns if you intend to maintain the momentum, she can build up the force via multiple jumps. That breaks physics. 3. It does not matter where the location is in relation to the jumper, nor what the location is. So a jumper can jump from sea level to mount everest, and be fine. A jumper can jump from standing still, to a plane in flight. A jumper can have picture of the inside of a plane while it is landed and stationary, wait till it takes off, and jump right into the cabin while it is in motion with the same picture. All of that again breaks physics. So I do not think it is fair to compare the way a jumper works to how transportation potentially works, to say it is broken. A jumper by definition is broken because a whole lot of what they do break physics, and works heavily in their favor. I agree which is why I think using the jumper analogy for power usage (other than explaining the gate thing) is faulty. Jumpers don't have to worry about that, which unfairly gives them advantages that I do not think transportation would have, so for Karger to say transportation would be broken, and using the jumper rules is faulty. I agree. For the three reasons I explained that jumpers "jump". If you jump from a standing position onto a moving object, you should go splat. if you jump from moving to a stationary place, you should go splat. If you jump to a vehicle that was stationary that is now moving, you should go splat. That is why. We all have, but you are treating transportation like it is Jumping, which it is not. edit: I also think it is reasonable to not think transportation works like jumping regarding moving objects because we already see regarding time bubbles in alloy of law: So using that as a rule brick, you are not teleporting around in midair without consequence for transportation.

So my response right now is more just responding as conversation than having anything to do with my original point. The reason I say this, is regarding my point, to me the event that took place between Elhokar and Kaladin does not matter regarding the overall society, as it would have taken place that way regardless. For instance if we exchange Elhokar for some other ruler, Kaladin will still act the way he did because he as the person Kaladin distrusts lighteyes on whole. The society could be exactly as you describe, and it would not matter, because as Kaladin sees it, it is lighteyes vs darkeyes, with darkeyes always getting the short end of the stick. At this point in the story he still distrusts them, but a part hopes he can beat them at their own game, which is why he was not open and honest with Dalinar. He didn't think he could accomplish it with a conversation. That's what happened with Amaram. It was in a room, hidden from everyone. This way, its on display. Now let us change Kaladin for any old darkeyed, and keep Elhokar. It still will go down the same way, because as I have shown, and you agree, Elhokar is biased against darkeyes. That is why he called for Kaladin's arrest. So if random darkeyed did what Kaladin did, then random darkeyed would have been arrested. That's why I am saying I am not making a commentary on the Alethi society. I am commenting on the individuals. Now having said that, to respond conversationally to what you wrote. My personal mentality is if a stature cannot be attained via any way other than changing the color of a body part, then the stature is associated with that body part. There are three ways to change your stature for a dark eyes 1. become a merchant and earn money, buying your way up the dahn 2. get a shardblade/plate to turn into a light eyes and gain a nahn 3. be a high dahn, marrying into a low nahn. The only instance where a darkeyes rises out of the dahn, and into a nahn is if their eyes change color via shardblade/plate. If they earn money, they will always be at the highest first dahn. If they marry into a lighteyes family, they will still be lower than their spouse, and if their child is a lighteyes, their child will still out rank them. There is no mention nor possibility of a dark eyes, keeping their darkeyes and attaining a rank of nahn. It is either you change your eye color, or remain dahn. You can be as high of a dahn as you want. You can have as much money as you want, and still the lowest nahn will outrank you as per their ranks. Privilege or not, they are still outranked. On our world, I agree. A dark eyed merchant with a lot of money if he or she does things right might even have more clout than a 10th nahn light eyes, but from what we have seen of the alethi military, the youngest commissioned officer can most definitely order around the most senior highest ranking sergeant major (as we have seen in Sadeas's camp), and the 10th nahn lighteyes still as per the society outranks that extremely rich 1st dahn darkeyes. And in order to gain any further rank or legitimacy, that 1st dahn darkeyes will have to marry into that 10th nahn lighteyes to get any farther. He was given rank of captain, because to raise him any further, would mean Kaladin could technically command a lighteyes, which Dalinar says he cannot do. kaladin comments on situations where he has to be careful how he says things to lighteyed officers, because of his unorthodox rank. He can command them, but at the same token he cannot because they outrank him. I can pull up that scene for you if you give me a moment. Brandon has commented on how there is a burgeoning middle class developing among the high rank darkeyes, but at the stage of the story, at the end of the day, if you are darkeyes, you do not get to be of a nahn. edit: Found it! Way of Kings Page 984 "And I want space to train" kaladin said "Full right of requisition from the quartermasters. I get to set my men's schedule, and we appoint out own sergeants and squad leaders. We don't answer to any lighteyes but yourself, your sons, and the king" Dalinar raised an eyebrow "That last one is a little.... irregular" "You want me to guard you and your family?" Kaladin said. "Against the other highprinces and their assassins, who might infiltrate your army and your officers? Well, I can't be in a position where any lighteyes in the camp can order me around, now can I?" "You have a point" Dalinar said "You realize, however, that in doing this, I would essentially be giving you the same authority as a light eyes of the fourth dahn. You'd be in charge of a thousand former bridgemen. A full battalion" "yes" "Very well. Consider yourself appointed to the rank of captain - that's as high as I dare appoint a darkeyes. If I named you battalionlord, it would cause a whole mess of problems. I'll let it be known, however, that you're outside the chain of command. You don't order around lighteyes of lesser rank than you, and lighteyes of higher rank have no authority over you. Words of Radiance page 56 Dalinar made me a captain" kaladin said "The highest rank he said he dared commission a dark eyes" Words of Radiance page 62 "A darkeyed captain! Who would have thought it possible? You'll be the only one in the army. The only one eve, so far as I know!" Words of Radiance page 91 "Soldier" Kaladin said with a nod to one of them, a lighteyes of low rank. Militarily, Kaladin outranked a man like this - but not socially,. Again, he wasn't certain how all of this was supposed to work. This portion is entirely your own conjecture, which you are totally entitled to, but personally my reading differs. I think the wording is pretty explicit, but as there is nothing further that can be pointed to to conclusively say how it would have gone otherwise, I say to each their own. Not to be dismissive, but there would be no point arguing this portion because it is purely subject to each of our personal readings. edit 2: looks like I confused the terms. Dahn is for lighteyes, Nahn is for darkeyes, but the rest stands lol

There is nothing preventing: Conversely potentially a radiant has to pin point where they have to go (who knows, maybe the spren help), and use a finite amount of stormlight. Seems in line to me. They still need enough stormlight to accomplish those goals. Why are there not huge cadres of windrunners flying everywhere? Because they run out of stormlight, and have to ride a storm to have enough. There is a different amount of stormlight for the fabrial to transport everyone on the platform, versus just those in the control building. And that is between two fixed locations. Why would it be unreasonable to expect the further you teleport the more stormlight is required? The more people you transport, the more stormlight required? We know it takes more stormlight the larger the object is to lash. We know it takes more stormlight the more number of lashings you add to an object. And we know it takes variable amount of stormlight depending on the type of lash (quarter, half, full), so why would not the same stand for transportation? If you transport too far, you won't have enough stormlight to get back. If you don't have enough stormlight, you won't get there to begin with. If you aren't practiced or skilled enough, you may end up miles off course. If you have enough to make it there, but not enough to make it back with everyone? What if there is a larkin, or another like it that is used on you when you get there, and now you cannot get out? While with Elantris:

But in this case darkeyes is synonmous with "low station". The earlier quote I provided from Adolin is "A lighteyed warrior who has proven himself before the Almighty and the king, turning and demanding justice from one who wronged him...." Adolin didn't say warrior, he specified the eye color of the warrior. Kaladin just chose either not to hear that, or think it still counted for darkeyes as well. As to whether Elhokar is more discriminating or not, I will reply further below. But it was Elhokar who called for Kaladin's arrest. The guards didn't go after him because they assumed. They went to arrest him, because Elhokar said to arrest him. So to me, it does not matter how the society views dark eyes or light eyes. It matters that Elhokar viewed it as an issue because he is the one that called for it. Dalinar confirmed later Elhokar could have disregarded it as King. As per tradition anyone should be able to duel a shardbearer, and if you win, you win the shards. Doesn't matter if you are dark eyed or light eyed. What Elhokar just said there shows at least for him, that is a myth that should not be allowed to occur for real. I think where the confusion came in is I am not offering a commentary on Rosharan rights. All I am commenting on is why I believe Kaladin took the actions he did, and what actions others took and the why they took them. To me, Kaladin tried for the King's Boon because although a part of him still hated the lighteyes, a part of him thought he could beat them at their own game and get justice. To me, the King called for Kaladin's arrest and execution because a dark eyes challenged a light eyes. Kaladin attained the highest rank a dark eyes ever did, because Dalinar actually had to put him outside the typical command structure to do so. There was a Tor article where comments broke down how high a dark eyes could get, and it was shown they could not become officers. So by the literal definition, any dark eyes in the military structure is a common soldier. edit: to put it another way, there isn't a dahn that his higher than a nahn. Does not matter how high a dark eyes gets, as per the structure, he or she will still be lower in standing than the lowest nahn. The 1st dahn darkeyes could have all the money in the world, and the rights to back it up, and they will still be seen as lower than a 10th nahn light eyes.

Ah, my intention was speaking primarily and only regarding "radiant" fabrials that are used to mimic surges. I thought (correct me if I am wrong), the reason the other fabrials differ is they are using lesser spren to come up with a variety of functions (though we still do not know how the fabrials that mimic radiant surges are made). If I understand your post accurately now, then I completely agree. The level of utility fabrial creation overall (detecting fabrials, attracting fabrials, and so on) can accomplish things outside of surges. edit: honestly I am kind of surprised no one has just blatantly said to Sanderson "can a willshaper or elsecaller do instant transportation from one location to another like oathgates can?" Unless someone has and they have been RAFO because we will be seeing Willshapers next book?

Oh totally. I never was intending to defend Elhokar's actions.

Computer technology develops through more complex programming. Brandon likened it to making a circle over and over and over again. Both the fabrial and the human can make a circle, but the human can shade it to give it dimension. The human can make an oval. The human can make the circle larger or smaller. For the computer to do any of those things requires additional programming to account for the additional complexity. A fabrial soulcaster has to attain savantism in order to soulcast a portion of something (Kaza interlude), yet Jasnah can soulcast words onto a piece of paper because she just happened to not have a pen on hand. A computer may be able to draw that circle over and over and over within the exact parameters it was set to, but that does not change that I can also draw a circle, and I can do a whole lot more with that circle. So I do not think personally it is accurate to say that a computer could do something that I myself could not. Could it be more efficient, or send more people from a predefined location to another without as much "work" as I would as a radiant? Sure! But I think it is a stretch to think the fabrial would have an entire ability more than what the original radiant could do. Honestly I disagree. This isn't a resonance. It's not two powers interacting producing a third one that normally does not manifest. It is taking one power, and limiting it to repeat one function repeatedly (drawing a circle as per Brandon), and then saying a brand new ability unable to be accomplished normally would arise. That is where I disagree. It is saying a radiant normally can only go back and forth between the cognitive realm and the physical realm, but a fabrial which is built to mimic that surge, and be limited, can do something additional via direct transfer. For the reasons I responded to Quantus, I just do not see that being. But till it is confirmed, I guess to each their own. Thank you!

Why would it be unlimited? We have already seen it is possible in the oathgates as well as: Elantris spoilers You would still need stormlight to fuel it. Could you elaborate on what you mean by unlimited?

I think it would depend on how prevalent they are, which is why I think it is brilliant that Sanderson is having the abilities converted to items anyone can use. If the occasional person can punch a hole through the wall with pewter feruchemy, or speed, or etc, then it would be a lot like in Alloy of Law. Which is registration and policing the individuals based on their individual abilities. But make the magic into science anyone can use, and then it will become part of the society on every level.

True it has not been confirmed yet, but I am still of the belief that Oathgates are a radiant fabrial of transportation. We have confirmation that fabrials are more limited in scope than what their actual radiant counterparts can do (radiant soulcasters versus fabrial soulcasters is the biggest one). We have numerous WoB that Jasnah is not as practiced with transportation as she is with transformation. If we were to take what Shallan can do with transformation as indicative of what all radiant tranformation can do, then we would figure soulcasting is far more limiting than what we know it can in fact accomplish. Further as per book and WoB, we have yet to see a fabrial version of a surge accomplish "more" than a radiant using the same. Oathgates are the only theoretical one at this time. So my mentality is, if a fabrial can do it, then so too can a radiant, and a radiant can do so better.

Assuming Wisdom/Prudence is a shard, I am surprised it did not make it higher on Odium's to kill list considering he went for Ambition due to its intent. I would not want to leave someone whose entire intent is regarding figuring out ways to out maneuver everyone else. That is not the kind of entity you want to give time to think things through, otherwise you get the stereotypical "because Batman". That Batman wins because he figured you would have done that, so has a plan to counter it. Then again, maybe that means Odium tried, but Wisdom/Prudence already out thought him to escape and focus on survival (like was mentioned) and now that Odium is trapped on Braize, it is thinking through how to end him for good? Oh! Oh! Here is a total tinfoil had theory. What if Wisdom/Prudence is the ultimate bad guy of the Cosmere? Working in the background, out thinking everyone till the moment is right?

Or you could have a willshaper or elsecaller give you instantaneous delivery with transportation.

I was thinking it over, and I think Taravangian could theoretically maintain a bond to an elsecaller spren. When Taravangian is brilliant, he is logical, which elsecaller spren seem to prize. When he is of lesser intelligence, he is remorseful, but he still holds true to his belief in the logic of the Diagram. He views it as necessary. So although he may think what he does is horrible, he still holds to the logic and potentially what the oaths of the elsecallers that he may have taken. We already know a Machiavellian could be a member without issue. So when lesser intelligence, he may lament his actions, but he still believes in them. Now I do not believe Elsecallers on whole fit this category, but potentially their spren give a little more leeway.

Personally I disagree, but as there is so much we do not know about what each spren looks for in a candidate, then just about anyone is likely. So I wish you luck with your theory.

I think part of it was there was a sliver of him, at Syl's urging, was trying to believe in Dalinar but still balancing that with his own prejudice. That he could get justice from lighteyes, but he had to do it with them kicking and screaming. I liken it to Breaking Bad and Walter White. I will spoil the reference below So had Kaladin either fully embraced his hatred of the lighteyes (and thereby ended up helping and joining Moash), or fully embraced trusting Dalinar, and worked with him over time, then the incarceration would not have happened. Either Elhokar would have ended up dead, or over time Dalinar may have helped him with Amaram. However, because Kaladin still was focused on revenge and his prejudice, while simultaneously trying to get the lighteyes to live up to his expectations, ultimately led to the incarceration. At least that is how I see it. I agree. Elhokar even commented that he liked Kaladin because of how Kaladin ran the guards. It was only when what Kaladin did was inconvenient to Elhokar, that he then called for execution. I think (I will have to check), but the reason Elhokar got upset at Kaladin was not because of losing the chance at Sadeas. It was because it was a darkeyes speaking up against a lighteyes. I do not think we can necessarily say that for sure. Dalinar is the type to be thorough. I took Dalinar's scheme as a test for Amaram, which he failed. I agree But it was Elhokar who called for the punishment that did not have to take place. Elhokar who had been saved by Kaladin. Elhokar who just prior was extolling Kaladin. I need to pull up the scene again to be sure, but I could have sworn it was explained that Elhokar over reacted, and did what he did because he didn't like the dark eyes challenging a lighteyes because it was in Elhokar's eyes upending the status quo and questioning his authority. But I will get back to this once I pull it up. edit: Pulled up the scene Words of Radiance page 675 "He was the only one who went to help my sons" "That's his job!" Elhokar snapped back "He insulted a highlord in front of the entire court" Elhokar said, pacing beside the wall "He dared challenge a man so high above his station, the gap between them could hold a kingdom"....... "On a dueling ground, where his help was invited" Elhokar said throwing is hands into the air "I still don't agree with letting a dark eyes duel Shardbearers. If you hadn't held me back....Bah! I won't stand for this, Uncle. I won't. Common soldiers challenging our highest and most important generals? It is madness" (it is then that the losing Sadeas is mentioned, but this is where the execution talk actually comes up....) "This is what you get, Uncle" Elhokar said "for putting a slave in charge of our guard. Storms! What were you thinking? What was I thinking in allowing you?"..... "It's not his skill but his discipline that is the problem!" The king folded his arms "Execution".... "It is punishment for slandering a highlord" Elhokar said "It is the law" "You can pardon any crime, as king" Dalinar said "Don't tell me you honestly want to see this man hanged after what he did today" So yeah Elhokar was pissed that they lost their chance at Sadeas, but it looks to me that the reason he wanted Kaladin killed was because a darkeyes challenged a lighteyes.

I understand that was the original query, just @Honorless made a comment that you then responded to, and I was confirming your response in that comment. Basically I was saying "although I do not know about prior to birth, I do know once the individual sees themselves a way, they will heal in that manner. So although I am not sure whether we can determine how something sees itself prior to birth, if there was a way to, then that is how it would heal"

I read what was proposed as how for instance a marlin fish if there are a plethora of male fish, then some of the group will change their sex to female, so the group can continue to procreate. That if the male marlin that changed itself to female then got injured, it would heal back to female rather than male, because it sees itself now as female. I posted the WoB that supports this. If you are talking about changing the sex of an animal while still in gestation, that I think is a different matter.

The purpose of the "kings boon" was that a challenge could be made where normally it could be avoided or refused. The original instance had a highprince they wanted to get out of power. So Sadeas did a wonderful bout, to which the king offered a boon, and Sadeas said he wants that guys head. King grants it. Unless the target wants to refuse the authority of the king, which would result in penalization as well, he would have to accept the fight immediately and fight then and there. That's what they were trying to do with Sadeas. Kaladin saw it as his chance to fight Amaram in a way he would never get to. He felt he was a part of the win, so he should get a boon too. He however did not anticipate the full extent of the lighteyed hypocrisy. That such a boon is allowed to lighteyes to lighteyes, not dark eyes, regardless the wording. Not saying he did the right thing, just I get the logic behind it. Words of Radiance Page 644 My husband spoke with Gavilar regarding the Right of Challenge and the King's Boon, ancient traditions that many of the lighteyes knew, but ignored in modern times. As traditions that shared a relationship to the historical crown, invoking them echoed our right to rule. "The Right of Challenge is an ancient tradition - some say the Heralds instituted it. A lighteyed warrior who has proven himself before the Almighty and the king, turning and demanding justice from one who wronged him...."