Pathfinder

@Config2 and @Honorless I always interpreted that to mean that after the herald returned to Braize, they were on the run on that planet. Once they got caught on that planet, then they were tortured. The implication I got was that they either died on Roshar and returned to Braize, or they survived and voluntarily returned to Braize. I could have sworn I read somewhere that if they did not return, then the desolation started up again. But what you say is an interesting thought, and could be.

As this is the stormlight forum, I will spoiler the references I make to mistborn. There are annotations and WoB that I would need to pull up and would be happy to provide you later as I am multitasking at that moment but the long and short of it is this: That is the example of someone being directly fueled by a shard that I am drawing from, and the WoB posted has Sanderson say the honorblades were fueled directly by honor and had access to levels of investiture no radiant could attain. So to me it is pretty clear the heralds were at that level. But I guess to each their own

And my point is you are thinking purely physical. Not all the Unmade operate purely physical brute force. Further there could be powers (cough dustbringers cough cough) that could fully atomize a body before healing occurs for all we know. Basically all I am saying is I am keeping an open mind regarding what Odium could bring up that could give the Heralds a hard time. Llstml provided the WoB. Before Honor died, the honorblades let the heralds draw directly on his power. Thank you!

And good luck to you as well. Who knows? Maybe when we see Jasnah's flashback chapters we will learn more about Amaram and find out once and for all.

Do we know a current fused could overwhelm a current herald? We have not seen a herald in combat. We have seen Nale holding himself back pursuing radiants due to the local law. We have seen a drunk herald. But I have not seen a herald in combat even in their current incarnation. So I do not think we can say the fused as they stand now can take out a herald as they stand now. For myself, I think they are still a threat, which is why Odium had Moash kill Jezerien. As to more powerful how? I am saying we saw what the nightmother could do when she is disorientated, and is missing something. She could produce a never ending army. And that is with her not at her full power. Same thing with Yelig-nar, Ashterman, Sja-anat, Nergaoul, and Moeloch. We have only seen tastes of what these entities can do, and that is not even all of the Unmade. The songs of the listeners speak of even more forms we have not seen. So I do not believe thunderclasts are the greatest foe heralds have had to face/fight off.

I disagree that it is obvious what this is. We just do not know. We do not know what Amaram disagreed with Restares about. We do not even know if Amaram disagreed. Again it could have just as easily been 1. we need the shardblade. agreed 2. if we just take it, people will have a problem. agreed 3. Amaram is not sure how to frame it so people will buy that he should have it. Hours of deliberation has Restares come up with the idea that killing the bridgemen would solve the issue. Amaram agrees See? Based on the vague wording and little information we have, that process could be just as valid. You are free to read into things as you have, but so am I, and that scene is far from conclusive. What is conclusive however, is traveling to the center of the Shattered Plains, Amaram pulling a shardblade on Dalinar and Jasnah, Amaram regretting not killing Kaladin when he had the chance (twice!), and Thaylenah. Kaladin without any plate and blade took on a fully armored shardbearer and won. Kaladin is clearly the better trained soldier. Any training in plate and blade that he lacks could be provided and given his apparent skill would exceed Amaram. Just because Amaram currently might have more experience in plate and blade, does not mean he would be better with them. Especially when he was unable to win them himself. He stole them from the better warrior. Also as I have mentioned, Kaladin is the better strategist. Amaram was faced with someone who was better and more deserving, so he rationalized away the facts to support his delusion. See you say I am reading too much into things, but the information we do have that counters what you say, you disregard. That Amaram must actually feel bad about it. Amaram wouldn't do that, because he isn't stupid. The book shows he is doing it. He has done it You have no proof he wouldn't do that. But still Amaram would never do that. Jasnah states Amaram would do something, Amaram has done such a thing three times, but we cannot believe Jasnah. I do not feel I am the one reading too much into things. Have you read the paragraph I posted twice now on how a narcissistic personality disorder functions? I will try one more time: Narcissistic Personality Disorder deals with love of an inflated self-image. They are extremely resistant to changing their behavior, even when it's causing them problems. Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. They are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticism, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as person attacks. Narcissists believe they are unique or "special" and can only be understood by other special people. Narcissists also believe that they're better than everyone else, and expect recognition as such - even when they've done nothing to earn it. They will often exaggerate or outright lie about their achievements and talents. When they talk about work or relationships, all you'll hear is how much they contribute, how great they are, and how lucky the people in their lives are to have them. Since reality doesn't support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage. I will elaborate in list form just in case 1. they create a fantasy that is grandiose and operate as if it is fact (only I can save Alethkar and the world) 2. they build up the fantasy by attaching it to other unique or special people, building their own specialness (Gavilar, Dalinar, Taln, etc) 3. when confronted by facts that dispute that fantasy, they feel shame and emptiness (Kaladin saying its all about Amaram, not about saving the world) 4. the delusion is now threatened, they rationalize the facts away, and lash out at the person who threatens their delusion (Amaram reinforcing only he has the capabilities to save the world, so he has to do these things for the world. He is merciful for sparing Kaladin even though he is casting Kaladin into a world of enslavement and worse. Then regrets not killing Kaladin) 5. having rationalized it, the delusion now secure, Amaram continues to operate as if it is fact. So again, everything to me lines up. Again I disagree. I already said multiple times now why I feel Amaram took Odium's deal and it has nothing to do with a moral compass or genuine empathy. Once again, surprise surprise, I disagree. The scenes we have shows to me a person with narcissist personality disorder, who makes sense why, given the information we have, he would side with Odium. To me if you look at Amaram as a tragic villain who has a moral compass, and is a foil to Dalinar, then his switch to Odium and subsequent actions do not make sense. It would be counter to his entire internal arc. What I believe you are presenting to me is a genuine person who wants to save the world. That lets his pride get the best of him at times, and led to his ultimate fall. But such a person would not: 1. reflect on his mercy of Kaladin and say to himself twice "darn, I should have killed him when I had the chance". 2. A person who genuinely felt bad for what they did and not because it threatened a delusion, would not disregard his betrayal of Dalinar (he literally lied and tried to steal from Dalinar), and think to himself that it is Dalinar's fault for trusting Kaladin and ending their friendship. Amaram literally stole from Dalinar, lied to his face, and told Dalinar his trust comes cheaply regarding Sebarial and the other guy. When confronted, he does not lament for lying to Dalinar. He does not see what he did as a betrayal to Dalinar. He laments he got caught. He is surprised that Dalinar was crafty enough to catch him. And he is upset that Kaladin revealing the truth separated him from Dalinar. He even still claims after everything that Dalinar (special unique person) would understand what he did. Even after all the times Dalinar said otherwise. Self delusion of a narcissist. I already said why it was for his ego. So he could tell himself "look at me, aren't I so wonderful? I am being merciful!". Kaladin calls him out on that "mercy". He tore away Kaladin's family, friends, home. Everything that Kaladin loves. When Kaladin confronts him with that at the end of Oathbringer, Amaram again rationalizes it away to preserve his delusion that that was his intention all along. It made Kaladin stronger. Kaladin should thank him. It is when Kaladin points out that anything Kaladin accomplished was his own, not Amaram's, Amaram gets enraged. Just like a narcissist would. As I posted in the paragraph about narcissistic personality disorder, a narcissist attaches themselves to other "great" people and things so as to validate their "greatness". That is why the accomplishments of the sons of honor and Amaram are one and the same. See, you say I am reading too much into things, but because his thoughts did not include one specific sentence, it means all of that? How is that not reading too much into things? I already explained why. It is his delusion. His delusion is he is the hero to bring back the heralds. So of course he is excited that a herald is back, and will be glorious. He is the wonderful paragon of virtue. As a narcissist, he believes this is true. Any action that disputes this, either someone else's or his own is rationalized so he may continue to believe he is this wonderful paragon of virtue. That is why he rationalizes his killing of Kaladin's men and enslavement of Kaladin. That is why he is so excited for the return of the heralds to glory. It validates his delusion. He doesn't consciously state "hey yay taln is back, so I can be the hero!" otherwise that would threaten the delusion. Kaladin did that. He said it wasn't to save the world, it was about himself, and that threatened the delusion. I feel like you are trying to reduce narcissist personality disorder to someone who will run around sceaming "me me me me me me me me!" and if they do not do that, they aren't it, when that is not how it functions at all. Where was Dalinar peer pressuring Amaram to want to conquor Thaylenah? Where was Dalinar peer pressuring Amaram to suggest they go to the Shattered Plains alone? Who was peer pressuring Amaram to get into Jasnah's face and then threaten her? Yet again, you have said I am reading too much into things, but I do not see where you get that Amaram has all this peer pressure. Amaram said he "hurt once" after killing Kaladin's men. First you stated it was when Odium offered to take his pain. Then you are saying it occurred back then. Can you please pick and stick to it? You still have not answered when Odium corrupted Amaram, because you know if we can point to a place when it happened, then if Amaram did anything bad before that, then it is Amaram, not Odium that is responsible. Then if he was corrupted by Odium during the rebuilding of Thaylen City, then he threatened Jasnah and Dalinar before that. Then he pushed for glory at the Shattered Plains before that. Then allllllllll the things I said that are hallmarks of a narcissist personality disorder to me, occurred before that. Again reading too much into things. Sadeas says and i quote: "Don't give me that noble talk. It works fine for others, but I know you for the ruthless bastard you really are" (Sadeas is calling Amaram out on his act) "Torol there is so much more to the world than your squabbles. You're right about me, of course. Take that admission with the understanding that to you, above all others, I can speak the truth. Alethkar needs to be strong for what is coming" (now I know what you are going to say "see! he admitted it! a narcissist wouldn't admit it!". Except again, this all falls in line with narcissistic personality disorder. What Amaram does is above squabbles. It has to do with the entire world. Reinforcement of his grandeur. Then statement showing Sadeas is special. Then attachment to someone special. Only someone special could understand Amaram who is special, so Amaram can only be truthful with Sadeas. Then back to saving Alethkar. Amaram can be a ruthless bastard because he is saving the world. He can be dirty but still be clean because of this higher calling. Thereby the delusion is reinforced.) Dalinar showed that if a person is genuinely sorry for what they have done, and wish to be better, it is possible. Dalinar reached out his hand to Amaram in offering of help. Amaram in his narcissism refused. I do not see Amaram and Dalinar as foils. I see Amaram and Jasnah as foils. Yet again, shardbearers you either execute or let go. Why that is in this case, and why Amaram would know that I will reply in my next point Precaution of what? Amaram was still under Sadeas. Remember? He kept trying to convince Dalinar to bury the hatchet and be friends with Sadeas? Dalinar tried repeatedly for Amaram to join his house and Amaram refused. What do you think would happen if Dalinar tried to arrest Amaram, who is under Sadeas? Dalinar would have to execute Amaram in a duel. Amaram would legally be allowed to draw his blade and fight Dalinar because he can claim offense at Dalinar's accusations. Dalinar on the other hand cannot unless he can provide proof Amaram stole from him before the king. That wouldn't work because Dalinar already lost most of his clout with the Highprinces, and was going to travel to the shattered plains. Dalinar has no ability to make anything stick or do anything in that moment. All he could do is say "I know what you are, I am blind no more". And for that, Amaram pulled a blade For what? he didn't think Dalinar had a shardblade at all, and Dalinar wasn't wearing plate. There wasn't a single thing Amaram thought Dalinar could actually do to him physically for Amaram to feel threatened enough to pull a blade. As Jasnah said, his mother slept around enough to get Amaram in a good position and the connections he needed to rise in the ranks/ He has Kaladin enslaved and branded with a hot iron the first time. The second time, Elhokar already sent his men to imprison Kaladin and Elhokar wanted to execute Kaladin. When Dalinar brought it up later, Amaram tried to get Kaladin punished for "slander". We see at Thaylenah what Amaram really thinks of Sadeas. He does violently attack Dalinar. I call pulling a shardblade on an unarmed man as violently attacking. Wit if he attacked and killed would cause him to lose all his lands and title. How would ole Amaram save the day if he was poor? Yes they helped rebuild thaylenah, while he was lamenting that he was not conquering and killing them. He followed orders. Every time we see him, he sucks up to his "betters" and does what he is told while saying they were brilliant. Jasnah in the flashback of Gavilar's death sees Amaram as a sycophant of Gavilar, and is stupid. But of course, we are cannot take her word for it as per you. He would not be murdering a highprince in front of his entire army, he would be defending his honor from an accusation. Remember when Sadeas insulted Renarin? Remember how Dalinar said that Sadeas surely must not have said such a thing because it would be grounds to duel to the death right then and there? Sounds like that is plenty legal, and Amaram said normally if Jasnah was a man, that is exactly what he would do. He still did it anyway because again, jasnah further threatened his delusion. And again I have provided several arguments for why I disagree. Amaram's hurt after killing Kaladins men was the shame of a narcissist when their delusion was threatened. Amaram isn't violent with Sadeas because he still needs Sadeas for his "grand plan/delusion". Amaram isn't violent with Hoid because he would lose his lands and all his ways to "save the world". This is my own reading, but I think I can be damnation sure that if there was a way to take out Wit without Amaram losing his titles, he would have. I see no evidence Amaram genuinely believes he is saving souls. I see no evidence that Amaram is pressured by his mentors. Finally all these huge responsibilities you mention, are from Amaram's lips, which a narcissist would elevate and inflate to support his grandiose self delusion. Great, so: 1. can you point me to the scene that proves that is when Amaram switched sides? 2. Its not? He literally rants about how wonderful of a general he is, and how he should be on the front lines to save Alethkar. As if without him, Alethkar would fall. 3. I am going to ignore Kelsier because that is another character we disagree with (Brandon states he is a sociopath, but you disagree). So lets look at Wax and Vin. I will spoiler it below as we are in the stormlight thread This is the scene: "Jasnah I was told I could find you here" "Remind me to find whoever told you and have them hanged" Amaram stiffened "Could we speak together more privately, just for a moment?" "I think not" "We need to discuss your uncle. The rift between our houses serves nobody. I wish to bridge that chasm, and Dalinar listened to you. Please Jasnah. You can steer him properly" (ignoring the reality that the rift is from him betraying Dalinar and Kaladin. Jasnah is a special person. She should understand and do what Amaram suggests) "My uncle knows his own mind on these matters, and doesn't require me to steer him" (disputes delusion. Dalinar's feelings towards Amaram are correct. This threatened Amaram's delusion) "As if you haven't been doing so already, Jasnah. Everyong can see that he has started to share your religious beliefs" (rationalize it away. Jasnah is corrupting Dalinar. That is why he won't work with Amaram. Jasnah doesn't understand because she is a heretic. Delusion validated) "Which would be incredible, since I don't have religious beliefs" "Please, private?" (ignores protest that disputes delusion) "Not a chance Meridas. Go. Away" "We were close once" (she was the one that changed, not him. She is the problem. She should go back to how it was. Rationalization) "My father wished us to be close. Do not mistake his fancies for fact" (Gavilar supported Amaram's delusion. Amaram the savior of the world, married to the daughter of the most important man in the world) "You really should leave before somebody gets hurt" "We thought you were dead. I needed to see for myself that you are well" (trying to rationalize wanting to speak to her privately was for concern for her. The is disputed in this very conversation because he already said he was trying to get her to convince Dalinar for him. when she disputed and threatened his delusion, he changed tactics. Now he is a caring ex lover worrying for her safety.) "You have seen. Now leave" "Why, Jasnah? Why have you always denied me?" (now that it is clear his worry is a lie, it is she denies him. Again her fault. Not anything he has done) "Other than the fact that you are a detestable buffoon who achieves only the lowest level of mediocrity as it is the best your limited mind can imagine? I can't possibly think of a reason" (Jasnah calls Amaram stupid and says that is the reason. that threatens his delusion) "Mediocre?" Amaram growled "You insult my mother, Jasnah. You know how hard she worked to raise me to be the best soldier this kingdom has ever know" (oh look at that! anger and rage at the delusion being repeatedly threatened. But again it is not a failing of his, he brings up his mother. Jasnah calling him stupid is saying his mother did something wrong. And again to reinforce that grandiose fantasy, she worked to make him the best soldier this kingdom has ever known) "Yes, from what I understand, she spent the seven months she was with child entertaining each and every military man she could find, in the hopes that something of them would stick to you" (attacked delusion directly. Amaram is running out of ways to rationalize......) "You godless whore" Amaram hissed "If you weren't a woman..." (ah so it is because she is a heretic. Her lacking god is the reason she is this way. naturally she would act this way towards the paragon of alethi virtues) "if I weren't a woman, I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation. Unless I were a pig. Then you'd be doubly interested" (oh look. no way around that. shes calling amaram a .......... lol. so what does amaram do when his delusion is threatened and there is no way to rationalize it away?) "he thrust his hand to the side, stepping back, preparing to summon his blade" (he attacks) jasnah smiled, holding her freehand toward him, letting stormlight curl and rise from it "oh, please do, meridas. give me an excuse. I dare you" (oh look, a situation he cannot kill, bury, or avoid. so what does he do?) "he spun and stalked from the room, shoulders hunched as if trying to shrug away the eyes - and the snickers - of the scholars So again, to me, narcissistic personality disorder Because no witness is without bias. It is a literal impossibility. What we can do however, is take demonstrable evidence as fact. You can say I have a bias towards the shooter because he killed someone I loved, but when we have clear evidence he shot again, then my testimony sets precedent and is used in court. This is real law in real life. At the end of the day this is a thread called "the most disliked stormlight character". Amaram is my most disliked stormlight character. Another poster said that the scenes in the book was enough for them for Amaram. I agreed. I stated the scenes we have showed Amaram to me to be an individual with narcissistic personality disorder. You clearly disagree which is your right. But so is it my right to say I think he is a narcissist based on my reading, and in a thread that asks who you dislike most, I can say I dislike him most. As we have spoken in the past, I would like to do a thread where I go over every single line of Amaram to get a full picture of him. Unfortunately I have not had the time yet, but I think you can get a pretty good image how it will develop as I have referenced the book in every comment I have made. You again are certainly entitled to disagree, but I think the scenes we have support it. I have made abundantly clear why on a page where people can say who they dislike, why I dislike Amaram. At this stage what would you like to do? We both know we do not agree on just about every level with Amaram. So do you want to continue, or agree to disagree?

No worries. Its a favorite scene of mine, so that is why it is fresh in my mind "The thunderclast's palm crashed down on Renarin, smashing him. Adolin screamed, but his brother's Shardblade cut up through the palm, then separated the hand from the wrist. The thunderclast trumpeted in anger as Renarin climbed from the rubble of the hand. He seemed to heal more quickly than Kaladin or Shallan did, as if being crushed wasn't even a bother"

Just a little nitpick, the thunderclast did keep its hand down on Renarin. Renarin summoned his blade and sliced up wounding the claw which is why the thunderclast pulled back. As to how to kill a herald, personally I am still of the belief we have seen no where near the level of power Odium's forces can bring to bear. Odium has not brought them yet because he thought he had the whole battle in hand. The heralds were out of the picture, Dalinar was going to be his champion leading the turned Alethi, Kaladin and Shallan were dead (to his knowledge), and Jasnah was going to kill Renarin (to his knowledge). That is why he told the parsh to sit back and watch. He thought he had everything in hand. Now that he realizes he did not and since the heralds are potentially a threat (hence killing Jezerien to preemptively deal with them) I think Odium will begin amassing the true forces that caused the desolations of the past. I think our heroes are in for a very very bad time.

It implied Restares convinced Amaram of something, not what. As in Amaram does not know how to cover it up, and thinks of all the ways it could go wrong, but Restares convinces him it would work, and they would get away with it. The progression is this: 1. Kaladin calling Amaram crem for killing his men. Amaram states he couldn't have them speak of what they saw 2. Kaladin says Amaram is taking the shards for himself. Amaram presents the egotistical delusion that only he is trained in the sword and used to plate. That Alethkar would be best served with him having them. Its not just he would use them better, all of Alethkar would benefit. Grandeur, narcissistic inflation. 3. Kaladin states Amaram could have asked for them. Then Amaram explains that no one would believe that, and Kaladin would surely change his mind and want them back. 4. Amaram says Restares is right, it is for the good of Alethkar, reinforcing the egotistical delusion that Amaram and no one else can wield the blade and plate to save Alethkar. 5. Kaladin yells that it is not about Alethkar, it is all about Amaram. Amaram looks guilty and looks away because he knows what Kaladin said is true. Narcissist having the delusion challenged with facts. Delusion begins to crumble. 6. Kaladin says the whole honorable brightlord who cares for his men is an act. 7. Amaram reinforces the delusion, that it is for his men (even though he just killed some of them). That Kaladin (someone lesser and not special) would not understand the weights he, Amaram (who is special) has to carry. 8. Then he cannot worry about the lives of a few darkeyes (someone lesser and not special), when in view of him making such decisions (again grandiose, special) All falls in line with a narcissistic personality disorder. I most definitely disagree that it makes Restares look like he was convincing Amaram to commit the crime. I broke down the whole scene above line by line. I feel I have read plenty deeply and to me it lines up with narcissistic personality disorder. Again I disagree that it is genuinely about helping Alethkar. In his head, he has created this grand delusion that he must be the savior, and like a narcissist, anything that threatens that is a problem. He looks guilty, because his delusion is threatened, which is what a narcissist would do. Word for word verbatim. Right, of course he honestly believes it, because it validates his delusion. I just wrote above: "Since reality doesn't support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage" Amaram's delusion is he must be the one to save the world. He is the only one that can do it. So what he did to Kaladin is ok because of the greater goals. It is when those greater goals are shown to be false, he could no longer rationalize and validation his delusion. He wasn't killing those men to save the world, he was killing them for his own ego. When confronted with the reality, he rationalized a way out of it by siding with Odium. Odium is the real good side. Humanity is bad, and the parsh should have the land. That is honorable. Oh look, delusion is validated once more. Again I disagree. If he truly felt bad for what he did. if he truly had a moral compass, then he would not have sided with Odium. You want more scenes to show this descent to make Amaram the tragic villain make sense. For myself, the scenes we have, Amaram the narcissist fits, so I do not need any additional scenes. It already works to me. Again, I disagree. It was his delusion. if he genuinely couldn't stand to murder kaladin, then why does he muse to himself twice later that he should have killed Kaladin when he had the chance? He regrets not killing Kaladin. He begins to hate Kaladin, because Kaladin risks the delusion he built up. Nothing here disputes how a narcissist personality disorder would be. The entire passage strokes his own ego. It is the great burden he under takes. The church must be brought into dominance, and in order to do so the world has to be in crisis. The heralds must return, because if they don't his delusion does not get validated. Which is exactly what happened. He found out the heralds lied. His delusion collapsed. Being the narcissist I believe he is, he then reaches and rationalizes a way to maintain the delusion. Which he did by allying with Odium I disagree. It is the rationalization of a narcissist to me. Gavilar who fed and fueled that delusion. So of course he would think Gavilar would be proud. Brandon RAFO who Gavilar would have sided with (Dalinar, Taravangian, Amaram) after everything happened. But he did claim glory. They finally reached their goal. Gavilar would be proud. The heralds will return and validate his delusion. Um, actually that scene is a perfect example of a narcissist. Amaram comments how he is also surprised that Taln is a darkeyes and it simply must be a disguise. Different colored skin? That's no problem on Roshar. Eye color on the other hand? Oh boy! Part of Amaram's delusion is that lighteyes (which he is) are better. That was one of his excuses to Kaladin wasn't it? That because he is a lighteyes he can save Alethkar? But if the heralds aren't all lighteyes......then the lighteyes aren't the only ones who could save Alethkar.....then Kaladin who really did earn the blade should have had it......oh wait no can't have that. Amaram has to save the world, so the darkeyes of Taln simply must be a disguise. Ah delusion validated once more. Amaram hitched his wagon to the heralds. Heralds return in glory, so too Amaram is glorified because he made it happen. If that wasn't the case, then why is he personally devastated that they lied? His delusion, his glory went down the toilet. Again do not see how that disputes anything I said. The heralds have to show up in all their glory for Amaram to get his glory. If the herald is seen as a gibbering mass, or dies before he does that, all Amaram's plans go down the toilet. I am glad you brought up that quote. Lets break it down. Amaram is saying: "I was forced to kill your squad" When was he forced? Who shackled him and said to kill the squad? Who threatened him? Was Amaram forced to the ground in front of Kaladin's crew, and told "kill them or you die" or "kill them or we kill someone you love". Nope. Amaram sprung the trap. Amaram gave the order. Once the heralds were revealed to be liars, Amaram hurt because his delusion broke apart. Odium offered Amaram a way out to restore his delusion. He took it. Validating it was not his fault. Again, to me, right in line with a narcissist. Then we come back to the same question I have asked you before. When did Odium corrupt Amaram? Because Kaladin happened before Oathbringer. Because the Shattered Plains happened before Oathbringer. Did Odium corrupt Amaram alllllllllll the way back then? Or how about how Sadeas says he knows the real Amaram? You mean to tell me Odium corrupted him even before then? I disagree, and if he was a greater foil to Dalinar, then he would still be alive to continue to be so. Amaram was originally not a thing. He was split off a bit from Sadeas and a merchant that was trying to marry Jasnah. So I do not see that he originally had a large narrative importance. Actually Amaram was originally supposed to die from that poison dart, but Brandon switched it to Sadeas dying. I will repeat the points I made again 1. Yet Amaram claimed he would have no problem standing on trial 2. Dalinar said you cannot apprehend a shardbearer. You either execute them or let them go. Amaram was in no danger of being arrested 3. There was no sign of arrest when Amaram started to summon his blade 4. Dalinar called Amaram a fool twice and thinks Amaram is that stupid. Just like a narcissist with narcissist personality disorder would. They build a delusion, and believe it. They rationalize away anything that disputes it, and violently attacks anything that endangers it (Kaladin, Dalinar, and Jasnah) You doubt, but is there anything you can show me conclusively? I offered multiple examples of a repeatable habit with Amaram. I personally think it is clear he is a narcissist. Amaram's men were disorganized, slovenly and on multiple occasions Amaram has failed as a leader. Now I know the first words out of your mouth would be well they were Sadeas's men first, but Kaladin was able to read the battlefield back in hearthstone as just a soldier and caught the cues that Amaram missed, resulting in Amaram being overwhelmed and ripe to be attacked by the shardbearer. That sounds stupid to me and to Dalinar. I disagree. I think it is exactly how Amaram the narcissist thinks. For me it all lines up. He is tied to Taln for his greatness, and Dalinar is a "great man" so naturally Dalinar should understand Amaram. Again textbook narcissist, only great people can understand him because he is special Um, he does exactly that. At theylenah. he was sick of kissing the theylen merchants feet. That he is Dalinar's best general and he is being wasted. That he was wasted by Sadeas. That sounds like a military rant about his accomplishments. "I'm your best frontline general, and you know it. Torol spent years wasting me because my reputation intimidated him. Don't make the same mistake. Use me. Let me fight for Alethkar, not kiss the feet of Thaylen merchants! I-" "Enough" Dalinar snapped "Follow your orders. That is how you'll prove yourself to me" Because his delusion means she should be wowed by him. He then rationalizes it that she is heretical :::bleep:::: He blames Kaladin, who he muses he should have killed. The empathy you reference is the guilt I say a narcissist would feel when their delusions are endangered. I disagree for everything I wrote at extreme length So if someone shot someone I love and I hate them now, and I say to watch out he will shoot again, and he does in fact shoot again, my statement should be ignored because I hate him? Her assessment was accurate. Her assessment was confirmed. So I will go with her assessment. All I am speaking regarding is Amaram. Personally I still think even if they thought they were trying to save souls, the means does not excuse the goal. None of those people get the choice in the matter. They don't get to say "hey I don't believe in your religion and I don't want to die for it". The sons of honor chose for them. I guess then I am confused, because I felt Toaster did make that point and I already replied to it, which is why I copy pasted. Wasn't intending to be flippant, just saving my hands from retyping. So I am adding to this because of my discussion with Toaster in this same post. it has to be a natural born lighteyes so it can only be him. if it was any lighteyes, then Kaladin would have been valid, and Amaram would not have been special, which would damage his delusion. So he validated his delusion by adding he has skill with the sword and plate, and only he could save Alethkar. No problem. Ehhhhh, its like you said we are starting to get into semantics. I think the taking of pain/guilt was ancillary. To me Odium offered Amaram a way of still validating his self delusion. Like Amaram said, Odium promised him greatness and Odium delivered. Yep. That is my thinking. He is still trying to maintain his delusion.

I think where we disagree is you see the return of the church as a holy mission of saving souls, while I see it as a power play. Which is why I believe the Sons of Honor are reprehensible. They are operating on incomplete and false information to bring about a desolation which will cause untold loss of life, in order to regain global control. I feel I already replied to all of this with Toaster. I will copy paste it below and I guess we agree to disagree? And you don't know it was Restares convincing Amaram to kill them. The exact quote just says this: "It took hours to decide, but Restares is right - this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar" For all you know, the hours of deliberation was not whether or not to take the shardblade from Kaladin, or even the how (killing them) but the how without being caught. If we are to take things at its pure brass tacks, you are reading into things just as much as I am. But to me there is plenty pointing to Restares using Amaram's ego "You see, the men must believe that I killed him." "It will serve Alethkar best if I bear the Shards." "It's not about Alethkar! It's about you! Amaram looked guilty suddenly, as if he knew what Kaladin had said was true" "I can't worry about the lives of a few darkeyed spearmen when thousands of people may be saved by my decision" "You are being discharged as a deserter and branded as a slave. But you are spared death by my mercy" He has to be seen as the one that won the blade. He has to be the one that has the blade cause only he can best serve Alethkar. Kaladin said its not about Alethkar, its about Amaram, and Amaram knows its true. His decisions are what will save thousands, when in reality it will kill thousands mored. Kaladin gets to live because of his mercy, ignoring the fact that Kaladin would not have needed such mercy to begin with if Amaram didn't betray him. Again, ego. We do not see that. We see him speak with Kaladin about how honorable it is for him to take up the parsh cause. How he made Kaladin. How without him, Kaladin would not be the man he is today. That what he did to Kaladin was a gift. That Kaladin should thank him. That he made a deal with Odium for greatness, and Odium held up his end of the bargain He grinned "Odium promised me something grand, and that promise has been kept. With honor" "Give in, and convince the city to surrender. That is for the best. No more need die today. Let me be merciful" (again about him. him showing "mercy", covering the fact there wouldn't have to be mercy again, if it wasn't for his actions to begin with) "I left you alive. I spared you." Again ego. You are only alive because I took pity on you. You should thank me. Be greatful to me. Ego "I made you, Kaladin! I gave you that granite will, that warrior's poise. This, the person you've become, was my gift!" (again, look at me, everything you are is because of me) "Your men died in the name of battle, so that the strongest man would have the weapon." Again self deluding ego. If Amaram was the strongest man to have the weapon, he would have won it. But Kaladin won it, which means Kaladin was the strongest man. By Alethi law, Kaladin can bequeath it to whoever Kaladin wishes. It wasn't Amaram's choice. It wasn't his decision, and he was not the strongest man to earn it. "Everything I've done, I've done for Alethkar. I'm a patriot!" (by bringing about a desolation which would result in untold lost lives. By killing innocent dark eyes. By attempting to steal a shardblade from Dalinar and then trying to draw a shardblade on an unarmed Dalinar. By trying to get Kaladin arrested, or executed, and regretting having not killed Kaladin back then. Yeah, that totally sounds like doing things for Alethkar. So the guilt goes in line with a narcissistic personality disorder. He built up a self delusion that only he can save the world. Anytime he is confronted with facts that dispute it, he feels shame and guilt, which is exactly what someone with narcissistic personality disorder would do because it does not line up with their delusion. so they disregard these facts, and blame the person, which is exactly what Amaram did. Except any darkeyes that takes up a shardblade would become a lighteyes and be a hero. he did not say any lighteyes, he said it had to be him Sorry that is not what I said. I said his reason for jumping ship with Odium is because finding out the heralds lied shatters the delusion he created. Where he is the paragon returning the vorin church to power. Since the heralds lied, then everything he did was wrong, like throwing that tomato at that evil person's house. When he found out the evil person was a good person, there is no way to repair his image. No one he can remove, or change the fact that he was wrong and now looks bad. So then he takes the first out he can, that again can restore that self delusion. In this case turning to a different group who does look at that old man as evil, thereby lauding him as good and wonderful again. He is not in the wrong, it was the group of people who are wrong. He is still wonderful and honorable and a paragon. Self delusion maintained. Again biased or not, colored or not, Jasnah was right. Three instances of him doing exactly what she says he would do. I agree.

And you don't know it was Restares convincing Amaram to kill them. The exact quote just says this: "It took hours to decide, but Restares is right - this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar" For all you know, the hours of deliberation was not whether or not to take the shardblade from Kaladin, or even the how (killing them) but the how without being caught. If we are to take things at its pure brass tacks, you are reading into things just as much as I am. But to me there is plenty pointing to Restares using Amaram's ego "You see, the men must believe that I killed him." "It will serve Alethkar best if I bear the Shards." "It's not about Alethkar! It's about you! Amaram looked guilty suddenly, as if he knew what Kaladin had said was true" "I can't worry about the lives of a few darkeyed spearmen when thousands of people may be saved by my decision" "You are being discharged as a deserter and branded as a slave. But you are spared death by my mercy" He has to be seen as the one that won the blade. He has to be the one that has the blade cause only he can best serve Alethkar. Kaladin said its not about Alethkar, its about Amaram, and Amaram knows its true. His decisions are what will save thousands, when in reality it will kill thousands mored. Kaladin gets to live because of his mercy, ignoring the fact that Kaladin would not have needed such mercy to begin with if Amaram didn't betray him. Again, ego. I just showed above a scene where Amaram felt guilty. Why? Because Kaladin called him out on his ego. That it is about Amaram, not about saving/serving Alethkar Really? Because I do not recall a single scene where he says he is doing it because he believes in Vorinism, and that he is saving souls. He says he is doing it for the greater good, but he never does specify what that greater good is. All he states is through bringing about a Desolation, the Heralds must return, and then the church will return to dominance. No mention of people living better. Being better. Souls being saved. Just he has to do it, so he can be seen as the guy leading the return of the church. Otherwise I would appreciate some page references so I can use them when I do the thread covering Amaram in depth. Please show me where he states these things. We do not see that. We see him speak with Kaladin about how honorable it is for him to take up the parsh cause. How he made Kaladin. How without him, Kaladin would not be the man he is today. That what he did to Kaladin was a gift. That Kaladin should thank him. That he made a deal with Odium for greatness, and Odium held up his end of the bargain He grinned "Odium promised me something grand, and that promise has been kept. With honor" "Give in, and convince the city to surrender. That is for the best. No more need die today. Let me be merciful" (again about him. him showing "mercy", covering the fact there wouldn't have to be mercy again, if it wasn't for his actions to begin with) "I left you alive. I spared you." Again ego. You are only alive because I took pity on you. You should thank me. Be greatful to me. Ego "I made you, Kaladin! I gave you that granite will, that warrior's poise. This, the person you've become, was my gift!" (again, look at me, everything you are is because of me) "Your men died in the name of battle, so that the strongest man would have the weapon." Again self deluding ego. If Amaram was the strongest man to have the weapon, he would have won it. But Kaladin won it, which means Kaladin was the strongest man. By Alethi law, Kaladin can bequeath it to whoever Kaladin wishes. It wasn't Amaram's choice. It wasn't his decision, and he was not the strongest man to earn it. "Everything I've done, I've done for Alethkar. I'm a patriot!" (by bringing about a desolation which would result in untold lost lives. By killing innocent dark eyes. By attempting to steal a shardblade from Dalinar and then trying to draw a shardblade on an unarmed Dalinar. By trying to get Kaladin arrested, or executed, and regretting having not killed Kaladin back then. Yeah, that totally sounds like doing things for Alethkar. Again, I disagree. I think Amaram is a foil to Jasnah. Amaram outwardly is the wonderful paragon of all Alethi values, while Jasnah is the dirty evil heretic. The reality is Amaram is bringing about the end of the world and has done horrible things to innocent people, while Jasnah is trying to save the world, and has saved innocent people. That is incorrect. First of all Dalinar says you cannot arrest a shardbearer. You either let them go or execute them. Second Amaram said on multiple occasions that he would stand trial so he had no fear of being arrested. Third, here is the scene: "I believe an apology is due" (requesting an apology is what started it) "Surely you don't believe these allegations, Dalinar!" "A few weeks ago I received two special visitors in camp. One was a trusted servant who had come from Kholinar in secret, bringing a precious cargo. The other was that cargo: a madman who had arrived at the gates of Kholinar carring a Shardblade" Amaram paled and stepped back, hand going to his side (so Dalinar showing he figured Amaram out was enough for Amaram to begin summoning his blade) I see no attempt to arrest Amaram when Amaram begins to summon his blade. Dalinar stated that Amaram needed to apologize to Kaladin, and that he believed Kaladin. That was enough for Amaram to begin summoning his blade Because he continually got in her face, and when she refused to do what he said, he forced her more. She defended herself verbally, and he went to pull a shardblade on her. The only reason he stopped was because he knew Jasnah could win, and everyone was watching. It is that scene she comments to herself about his ego "His eyes flicked up to meet hers; then he spun and stalked from the room, shoulders hunched as if trying to shrug away the eyes - and the snickers - of the scholars" "He will be trouble, Jasnah thought Even more than he has been. Amaram genuinely thought he was Alethkar's only hope and salvation, and had a keep desire to prove it. Left alone, he'd rip the armies apart to justify his inflated opinion of himself." And this was proven with Kaladin, the Shattered Plains, and Thaylenah. Each time sacrificing or wanting to sacrifice lives, for his own ego and glory. But I will quote them again below Dalinar on two occasions seems to disagree: "Of course" Amaram added, more softly "And I do see the tactical importance of knowing the enemy fortifications" You fool "The Thaylens are not our enemies" "First Sebarial, then Aladar? Your trust seems to come cheaply today, Dalinar" "Would you have me turn them away? "Think how spectacular this victory would be if we did it on our own." "I hope we're above such vainglory, old friend" Speaking of fools.... So twice Dalinar thinks of Amaram as a fool. Because those things impinge on his ego. Like I said, if he thought throwing tomatoes at an evil person's house would get him lauded, he would. Not because the person is evil, but because it is seen as good to do. If the person is revealed to be good, and Amaram is then seen as bad for doing it, Amaram would ruminate, and feel guilty. Not because he feels bad for hurting a good person, but for taking an action that damaged his image and thereby his ego. Below is a description of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Sounds like it hits every level with Amaram to me. Narcissistic Personality Disorder deals with love of an inflated self-image. They are extremely resistant to changing their behavior, even when it's causing them problems. Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. They are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticism, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as person attacks. Narcissists believe they are unique or "special" and can only be understood by other special people. Narcissists also believe that they're better than everyone else, and expect recognition as such - even when they've done nothing to earn it. They will often exaggerate or outright lie about their achievements and talents. When they talk about work or relationships, all you'll hear is how much they contribute, how great they are, and how lucky the people in their lives are to have them. Since reality doesn't support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage. I think the scenes we see in the novels support Amaram's egotism. Navani and Ialai have a beef now. Should we disregard everything Navani says about Ialai especially when it is validated via Ialai's actions? Amaram does exactly what Jasnah said three times in the book. Kaladin, the Shattered Plains, and Thaylenah. I've quoted them above, and Dalinar calls Amaram a fool for it. We have WoB that the Sons of Honor are the least knowledgeable and most wrong of all the secret societies. We have WoB confirming they are trying to bring about the desolations in order to get the heralds to return. We have from Amaram's own mouth on multiple occasions that that is their goal. As I said above, his focus is not on religion, nor Alethkar, it is being seen as the hero/savior. Classic narcissistic personality disorder

I disagree Again Amaram has to be seen as the hero. He couldn't be seen as the hero who won the blade in that situation. So he had to be convinced (playing on his narcissism) that only he could be the one to fully use the blade, so again killing was ok. It was fine to kill all the darkeyes because only he could save the day with the blade. Would destroy anyone to see him being the savior. It is egotistical delusions of grandeur. Amaram is convincing himself that the heralds will return, validating himself. What is the point of all those people dying if there is no one to see him saving the day? I disagree. Basically you view him as wanting him to genuinely restore the religion for idealistic reasons, which would result in his seeming heel turn to come out of no where. I view him wanting to restore the religion as a tool for his ego. It is a means to an end. If someone told him throwing tomatoes at a house would be lauded as wonderful, because in the house is an evil person, Amaram would do so gladly. Not because it is an evil person, but because he would be lauded for it. If it is then revealed that the person in the house is not evil, but a harmless old man, then Amaram would regret his actions. Not because he genuinely feels bad for the man, but because his ego takes a hit. You do not cheer a man throwing a tomato at an innocent old man. So his jump to team Odium in that light makes sense. Otherwise why would he regret letting Kaladin live? Otherwise why would he attempt to attack Dalinar when he thought Dalinar was defenseless? Same with Jasnah. I disagree edit: actually to add I would argue that Amaram is more accurately a foil to Jasnah. Jasnah is seen as a egotistical, heretical, perfectionist that wants to corrupt the youth and bring down the pious vorin church. The reality is that Jasnah continually doubts herself, has no problem with various religions so long as they respect her own beliefs, admits her own faults, only wants people to question and find answers for themselves, and couldn't care less about the Vorin church except where it gets in her way of researching to stop the desolation which will cause untold numbers of death. Conversely Amaram is seen as humble, pious, man of the people, that everyone wants their kid to grow up to be, and wants to bring back the holy church. The reality is that Amaram will do whatever it takes to maintain that facade, use whatever belief system can validate his ego, never admit personal faults, wants people to just obey and fall in line, and is using the restoration of the church to stroke his own ego. The book says otherwise. Amaram rationalizes to Kaladin about how is it honorable to help the parshendi. But again, this is so he can be viewed as the hero. He is the reason so many people will die because of a false cause. Since there is no way to turn that around and make him a hero, he jumps to the other side, so he can call "look at me! I am saving the parsh!". Again, ego. Again, glory Not mistakes. That it was his fault. That the actions he took to feed his ego was all on him. His ego couldn't handle any evidence showing he is not the perfect hero. If anyone knows Amaram best, it would be Jasnah. We have numerous examples that show they have spent years side by side. It would be using Kelsier to evaluate Dockson. It would be using Dalinar to evaluate Sadeas. It would be Navani to evaluate Ialai. She is not obviously biased, she is obviously knowledgeable of the subject.

The big hurtle is the number of times his name comes up. Most of the time when Jasnah's name is mentioned, either with her in a scene, or from someone else's lips, the scene can tell us something about her. Most of the time Amaram's name comes up, it involves Kaladin cursing him. Now that is pertinent when examining the character, but for the most part the curses coming from Kaladin's lips are repetitious and tells us the same things. So it means wading through those scenes. From what I have read of the character, the reason for trying to revive the dominance of the church is in service of his own glory. He wants to be the one to bring the church back and be extolled for it. The heralds return, proving the religion correct, and now everyone cheers for Amaram, the bringer of the heralds. Forgetting he is the reason for the desolation that led to countless lost lives to begin with. Jasnah comments how Amaram would destroy his own army, just to be seen as the one saving the day. This is later validated in the Shattered Plains scene as well as the Thaylenah scene. Before they venture out, Amaram urges Dalinar to cast aside Sebarial and the other highprince, and head out to the center of the Shattered Plains with just Dalinar's own men for "glory". Dalinar admonishes Amaram for such "vainglory". They would be outnumbered and outmatched. It would be foolish not to accept the aid of the other two highprinces. In Thaylenagh, Amaram assumes Dalinar is positioning Amaram's men to learn Thaylenah's defenses to conquer them. Dalinar again admonishes him that the theylens are their allies, and the real enemy is Odium. Again, foolish not to accept aid. Both instances illustrate sacrificing lives needlessly, in order to glorify the leaders via overcoming greater obstacles, but making the casualties higher. Just like bringing about the desolations to validate the religion. I bring that up to explain I do not see any disconnect between reviving the religion, and then the betrayal due to his motivation. What he says seems disparate, but we can see across the books, the actual motivation is quite steady. That is why I do not believe we need more scenes from Amaram. He was narcasitic from day one to the end. If he cannot gain glory on the side of honor, then he would on the side of hatred.

I agree. Personally I think we saw exactly what we were supposed to see with Amaram. I really do need to get around to giving him the same treatment I did with Jasnah via going over every quote to get a clearer picture of the individual. He is narcissistic, and self serving.

Then I wish you luck with your theory! I'll still cling to mine till we find out more lol.

I guess where I get confused is the impression I got from you is that there are two orders of note (bondsmiths and truthwatchers) who have had their members in the past bonded corrupted spren. That this has occurred enough for it to be reflected in an in world artist's interpretation. Now you are saying the unmade are corrupted spren, but are bondsmith level spren because Odium made them that way? Again, feel free to reason that way, just personally that does not work for me. My personal theory is that truthwatchers as an order, normally cannot see the future. Potentially they can view things far away as a remote viewing. But Renarin is unique. That is my take. The implication I got from the book is that Renarin and the Oathgates were new unique experiences that have never been done before. So if they are two independent accounts, then one should not affect the other in my interpretation.

I agree, and considering we already have enemies that are insubstantial (shades from Threnody), where only one type of weapon actually harms them (play DnD with those enemies, without the proper weapons and see how far you get), then I think invisibility is on the table. I would argue fighting something that is insubstantial with only one weakness that without you are screwed, is far worse than invisibility, considering there are ways and tricks of dealing with someone invisible (throw a bomb in the area you suspect the invisible person. Invisibility does not protect from AoE. Throw dust. Listen for movement. And so on)

So are you saying you belive the Unmade are corrupted bondsmith spren? So each line is denoted by a number. So second emerald, first emerald, etc. It has shown up in the book in the below order. We could potentially reason that the two second emeralds are from the same emerald, same subject. We could potentially reason emeralds one through the final are one full thought recorded over the course of multiple emeralds. The order would then be: Or it could be (exchange the two second emeralds order): Or it could be (the second emerald is its own separate thing): Or what you are positing: I personally think it is separate. Even if it is linked as you posit, to me it does not change it could be a truthwatcher concerned about what is happening with his order with the failing of Urithiru. Again no magic involved. Another member of the stonewards was concerned about the windrunners and skybreakers fighting while a willshaper felt they have all devolved into squabbling children. A skybreaker is even stating he or she thinks honor is changing, while an elsecaller is theorizing why the sibling is withdrawing. So it would not be a stretch that another member would be concerned regarding his or her order. All I was saying is for myself, I think truthwatchers normally do not see the future. That is my own personal theory I am holding onto till we learn more from Renarin.

And the larkins only have their mouths over the bondsmith, and their claws holding the truthwatcher. Every other order is just overlaid. My point is I am not saying you are wrong to reason as you do. I am just saying by itself it isn't evidence enough to directly say truthwatcher spren must be corrupted. Otherwise why aren't the bondsmith spren as well? So for myself, the gemstone isn't enough. It could just be, to me, artistic license like the woman with the safe hand. That is your interpretation. Just like my own interpretation of the gemstone archive is that the truthwatcher is talking about something he figured out. I have used this example before: Lets say hypothetically I see two friends expressing interest in each other. I know them separately, and know they would be horrible together. But I also know they would get defensive and upset if I said as much to them. Ultimately they get together, and it goes horribly like I knew it would. If I point that out, they would get upset at me for not having warned them. So I do not want them to know, could not say it, but I foresaw it. All without any magical means. So I think it was put there, to make people think "Hey! truthwatchers of old could see the future! Renarin must be normal!". That way when it was truly revealed, it still had impact. That is my own interpretation. I could be wrong. I am just waiting till we see more truthwatchers on screen to either confirm or deny that. Further I am waiting to see more of Renarin too, to learn how Glys got corrupted and what that means.

That chart is the in world artistic rendition. Everyone wondered why there is a woman there, and why she has a covered safehand if this is the voidbringer chart and would be thought to be associated with the parsh. That is when brandon explained people in world chose to draw it that way, and the safe hand doesn't necessarily mean anything. The knights radiant chart has two larkin on it. We have not seen anything tie larkin directly to the radiants, nor the specific orders it is facing. So personally I do not feel because a red gemstone is centered, means truthwatchers on whole are corrupted. You can certainly reason that, but I do not think it is evidence that stands on its own. As I said I have my own personal theory I cling to till we see more from Stump. If Stump starts having visions of the future like Renarin does, then sure they can too. But I will operate as Renarin is unique as his spren has been (at least in appearance) verified to be different than normal truthwatcher spren. So till I see otherwise, I will operate on "normal" Truthwatchers not being able to see the future.

With our current level of technology in the real world you would get a mirage yes. But also with our current technology in the real world we need a power source to produce a laser. Lightweavers can just make them. We have trouble making "holograms". The closest we have come is projecting over a mist, or spinning diodes really fast to produce an image with seeming depth. Yet again, lightweavers can produce full illusions, some of which can be interacted with. So again I see no reason why bending light would be off the table for an order of knights that literally manipulate light. But since you do, then to each their own.

I still cling to my own theory that the Truthwatcher quote from the gemstone archive was a red herring to hide the great reveal that Renarin was not a "normal" truthwatcher. Basically the quote is saying the person figured something out, but the others would be upset if he pointed it out to everyone else. No magic involved. But I will have to wait till we see more of normal truthwatchers before my theory will either be vindicated or disproved.

Don't think you are dumb. I will just respond to this post and then leave it. I will quote the prior post I made in this thread that covers this: "Ultimately I think what it comes down to it is what is central to my understanding of Jasnah and Kaladin means they would not get together, and if they did it would not work. That core part of my understanding of them would by extension see any reason to get them together as artificial and forced. So this has become less a discussion, and more an attempt to convince me, when me pointing to my thread on Jasnah is essentially (i did not realize this originally but do now) me saying my mind cannot be changed. Kind of saying "That is Jasnah to me. That Jasnah would not get in a relationship with Kaladin." So it is kind of unfair to all to continue to bring up reasons that Jasnah and Kaladin would work, just for me to say all the reasons why that new reason would not work for me. I think I adequately related my stance at length, so me responding to further reasons would I think be counter productive. So I guess good luck to those who believe the ship. If it happens, I hope you get all you wanted. if it doesn't, I hope you still get the development you sought from the relationship in another manner. " So my intent in that post that I copied above, was to relate that: 1. I wrote a really long thread on my understanding of Jasnah 2. It is my personal understanding of her 3. The reason I pointed to it, is because some of the things mentioned that she is lacking in this thread, are mentioned in that thread, and are objective. For instance, the scene of Jasnah dropping her research to be outside Shallan's room, while she was red eyed and distraught over her ward potentially committing suicide. It objectively occurred. Another instance when Jasnah is on the ship, speaking to the sailors with respect. Shallan thinks she is aloof and thinks them stupid, when Jasnah corrects her. That fools can be found in any place. She respects those that do their work and do it well. Again, it objectively occurred. That is why I asked you to read it 4. Having said that, I realize my issues with the the ship are based on that personal understanding of Jasnah. (to clarify I am not saying I personally understand Jasnah above all else, in case that is misunderstand. Personal understanding is stating I have my own view/reading of the character) 5. When someone has a view that is counter to the general view, things tend to devolve into people saying "well what about this?" "that doesn't work for me because...." "then what about this?" "that doesn't work for me because...." "there is also this" "that doesn't work for me because...." 6. this turns the thread into more the appearance of trying to convince me towards a side that based on my personal understanding of the character, would not work. I am not saying I am close minded, but as I have said repeatedly, I do not see it. I do not see them currently be attracted. I do not see a scenario that could organically build an attraction between them. I do not see a narrative need for them to have an attraction. So since on every level I do not see it, for me the ship does not sail. Anyone else can feel the ship sails. They can feel free to say as much. But like (as you referenced), when someone goes to Jasnah to try to convert her, she will respond with all her reasons as to why she is an atheist. She is not trying to make anyone else an atheist. She is not saying believing in religion is wrong. Just since someone is trying to tell her why she should believe in religion, she responds with why she does not. So when someone says to me that Gavinor is a reason that Kaladin and Jasnah could spend more time together. I say why I do not think that would occur. If I am told to assume Gavinor makes Kaladin and Jasnah spend time together, then I will say why I do not think it would affect their relationship. So In summation, I am not trying to tell anyone how they are allowed to think. I am not telling anyone they are right or wrong. I am saying why it does not work for me. Singular. My very own self. None of the reasons brought forward have been enough to convince myself that it would be possible or plausible. That does not mean others cannot think that way. It just means I am stopping responding to why these things do not work for me.

So I went through this already in another place, so I will do my best to explain how I envision it, and then leave it be. We know via: Elantris Spoilers It is possible to attach an illusion to something. A part of clothing, etc. We also see this with Shallan. We see Shallan cover herself with the color black from head to toe to hide from Amaram without messing up her eyesight. The aperture that you see out of with your eye is your pupil. The pupil is what lets light in for your brain to register. There are contact lenses that cover the entire eye except the pupil, and people can see out of that. There are colored contacts that cover the iris to change its color, yet people are still able to see since the pupil is uncovered. As long as the pupil remains unobstructed, you will have peripheral vision. The illusion could be attached to the pupils, so the pupils could still expand and contract with the illusion, without the illusion covering the pupils. Shallan should already have to do this when she changes her eye color when she goes out as Veil the darkeyes. So her vision should be unaffected. The problem is people will see two little black dots suspended in mid air. Hence looking towards the ground by tilting the head, or coming up with some other ways to help the two black dots to avoid detection. (I have attached an image of a sclera contact lens. The idea is the red area, as well as the rest of the face is covered in the illusion. only the pupil is uncovered. the individual using that contact lens that I have attached is able to see.) As to the issue you are bringing up regarding someone behind the lightweaver. That is assuming "invisibility" technology of having to have cameras take an image behind the person, and produce the image on the person so to produce "reactive" camouflage. That is not the only way. There are metamaterials that can bend light. Where we are currently is only 2 dimensional and only a very very small space, but considering the whole purpose of lightweavers is manipulating light (we know they can make lasers for instance), I see no reason why they could not be able to create illusions that bend light around them, providing functional invisibility, without the needs of being aware of your surroundings to constantly change the image.

I am forgetting the wording of the WoB to pull it up, but that is what inspired Brandon to write the magic system for Emperor's Soul. He was in a museum and saw pieces like that. That eventually turned into forgery.