Fifth of Daybreak

Let's move this discussion over to your thread. Sorry for missing it.

Storms that's annoying. Have a frustration upvote.

Oh, I think that tiny piece hates himself, and isn't cold blooded. I mentioned this on the "let's talk about Moash" thread, but I think he's going to groom a lot of self hatred and especially hatred for everything except Kaladin, who is the only good thing on Roshar in his mind. My crazy out there theory as of right now is Kaladin dies end of book five and Moash witnesses it, which makes him turn on and strike down Rayse, then immediately take up the shard of Odium and start a holy war of vengeance against Roshar which is what truly causes the destruction of the world. Rayse has other designs, Moash would only want destruction of the world that killed the only good thing left in it. That truly terrifies me.

So we now know that red signifies one shard corrupting or co-opting another shard's magic. The Thrill is Red, and yet, it seems to be the only Unmade that is Red. This seems to indicate that the Thrill was corrupted from another Shard, but the other Unmade were not, or at least not as completely. Re-Shephir: "The center was dominated by a heaving black mass that undulated and pulsed, stretching from floor to ceiling some twenty feet above." Ashertmarn: "As Shallan had warned, it was overgrown with a dark mass that pulsed and throbbed, like a pitch-black heart. Dark veins spread from it like roots, pulsating in time with the heart." Sja-Anat: "The reflection didn’t mimic her motions, but pressed forward, raising hands against the glass. The reflected room faded and the figure distorted, and became a jet-black shadow with white holes for eyes." Yelig-Nar: The dark spirit followed, the one of swirling mists, the last who had yet to inhabit a body. Does anyone have any ideas of the significance of this?

I don't disagree with you at all, but that doesn't change my feelings about Moash in general, and, quite honestly, his refusal to take responsibility for his own actions doesn't make any of the realizations he's had about modern society less true. Dalinar's willingness to accept his role as a war criminal doesn't make him less culpable for his crimes, or those crimes less heinous than Moash (and let's face it, Dalinar's actions in Rathalas are exponentially more Odious than anything Moash has done.) We're also all looking at this from the "our side is the good guys" angle. Is Moash part of an enemy insurrection taking a capital city and assassinating the sitting monarch, or is he part of a slave rebellion that thwarts an attempt by enemy forces to seize the palace from his allies? Continuing on that line of reasoning, yes, from our point of view, he was. From the other side, Elhokar was the leader of an enemy strike force kidnapping the crown prince from the Queen. Immediately after Elhokar's death, Gavinor is taken up by the Queen's Guard again. Corrupted by Odium or not, doesn't Aesudan have a right to protect her child from kidnapping? I know Odium complicates the whole affair, but just because the narrative is framed with our protagonists in mind doesn't make this as simple as we want it all to be.

So at the risk of getting an avalanche of hate...(glances gratefully at the now gone downvote button) I loved the salute. I've posted in a number of places that this whole scene was my favorite part of the book. I loved Moash's storyline and I'm very excited for his future. Now don't get me wrong, I totally understand the anger, I get where it's coming from, and absolutely agree that it's justified, I just feel like I understand Moash. (Not condone, but understand. I also respect him after what he did for the singers Kaladin abandoned to be abused for harboring his spying.) So I don't see Moash as giving the salute as malicious, a sign of respect, or anything like that. I think that Moash was trying to repay Kaladin in what small way he could by teaching Kaladin how other take care of himself by getting revenge. (Please note, I am not agreeing with that lesson or saying it's a good one, but just that I think that's what Moash was doing.) Moash knows about Amaram, and is the only one who understands that piece of Kaladin. He's the only one who's truly related to Kaladin on a personal level instead of revering him as their Radiant captain. When Moash notices that Kaladin has witnessed his revenge, he makes the salute as a reminder of 'I got my revenge because of you and Bridge Four, thank you. Don't forget to do the same for you, you deserve that peace, for your men." (Again, this is a twisted lesson, but it's what makes the most sense to me for where I've seen Moash in the series. I do not agree with the philosophy on a personal level, but it appeals to me on a narrative and aesthetic level.)

Shallan is extra connected to Hoid, and if there's anyone who's found a way to play with the powers of Connection, I'd guess it's Hoid. Her feelings of closeness to Hoid gives him an opening, the only thing then that's unexplained would be what mechanic he uses to manipulate Connection to talk to her. He's still alive so it should theoretically be even easier for him.

My favorite way to do these discussions is to take the in-world philosophies and apply them to the character's actions. All is taken from WoK 39 Burned Into Her. 1: Philosophy of Starkness- Kill or be killed: Adolin is exonerated. 2: Philosophy of Purpose- Actions are not evil, intent is evil. Adolin immediately prior attempts a reconciliation, and then asks why Sadeas is crafting lies. While he mentions that he couldn't stand there looking at Sadeas's smug face, in light of his attempts to assuage Sadeas with logic and conversation, and then this statement, it seems his intentions were to prevent future conflict, and not revenge, imo, and I don't condemn him for it. 3: Philosophy of Ideals-removing evil is ultimately moral. Sadeas is the one character I've said before is evil and irredeemable, from his role in Rathalas to his refusal to take Parshendi prisoners. This justifies Adolin above all. 4: Philosophy of Aspiration- Objective must be weighed against method. Removing Sadeas is worthy, everyone agrees. Hoid, Shallan, Dalinar, Navani. "If the goal is worthy, then the steps taken are worthwhile, even if some of them—on their own—are reprehensible." I also have to agree with this: For example, in the OP, when Adolin mentions the value of the Blades. He mentions their value to show the irony that in a fight for their life, neither man attempts to summon their priceless Blades because they are useless for close quarters combat. Adolin has no intentions of retrieving the Blade because there's no way he or his family could ever use it again. I'd go over these scenes again and make sure that you aren't pushing your own interpretations that aren't supported by the texts. For instance, with Shallan, I never interpreted that as Adolin suddenly being intimidated by Shallan's power, but suddenly feeling inferior and as though he no longer has enough to offer her in the relationship. This is evidenced when he says something similar to what you allege about the charity, immediately curses, apologizes, and demonstrates the problem is his insecurities by saying he's worried he's going to screw it up. Adolin had never had a reason to doubt his place in the world before. Even with an alcoholic absentee father as his only parent, he was poised, confident, and sure of himself. Now, he's in over his head. It's understandable to not know his place in the world after a lifetime of self assurance based on hard earned competence.

While I agree with you about Nohadon, (see my Noahdon thread and the No, We Killed you Thread,) Odium specifically says Dalinar capital A Ascended. I've mentioned a lot of this in this thread, along with bringing up some past examples of cognitive shadows cognitive Shadows doing similar things with visions that another sharder pointed out to me. There's been a ton of discussion on this over there already, it would probably be best to move this to that thread, or to the "No, We Killed You" one, as this clearly fits into one of those rather neatly.

So I'm not quite sure how to properly put into words how I feel about Moash. I don't like the person, I love the character, I'm probably most interested in his arc at this point in time, and I actually do respect him quite a bit. Plain and simple, Moash is a traitor. He pledged himself to Bridge Four, then broke that pledge immediately. That being said, I had written him off as what I was least looking forward to after WoR, and boy was I wrong. The choice to have him immediately removed from Graves was brilliant. Moash in the Diagram always struck me as wrong for the character. Then he manages to kill a Fused using skills given to him by Kaladin and rejects his Shards. I'm interested. His cracking at the meeting with the Brighlord was also pretty cool for me. Moash recognizes that he's been pushed towards his betrayal. Society has been founded on injustice, from religion to politics, to even the Singers former state of mind. Kaladin is the only right thing in this world and Moash betrayed him. How he reacted to this really is what made me respect him. He chose to devote himself to the most grueling work possible. Then he defends injustice against the new ruling class to try and prevent the mistakes of his race in the new world order. For me, it's important that he works to improve the mistakes of the past as he helps the force he sees driving to overthrow the current immoral and broken status quo. He was part of the problem before, his way to atone for that is to devote himself to the most grueling work demolishing the old corrupt establishment. He continues that work when he's freed, working with the underprivileged, following Kaladin's example, despite being able to leave to wherever he wants to go. He dedicates himself to the front lines of a dangerous assault despite having no personal ties to urge him onward except his own shame for his past, although he has given that up to Odium. That brings us to Elhokar. I don't want to rehash my thoughts that I've made clear elsewhere, but I think that his role here was the most beautiful symmetry, and this scene was my favorite one in the entire book. Elhokar consistently failed to learn or grow until a disaster blew up in his face. Moash represents the only past major blunder that I can account for at the moment that has not blown up in his face yet. For it to be the one thing from his past that he never acknowledged and that he couldn't outrun, it's a beautiful tragedy The salute was also a beautiful moment for me. Obviously we can't know what his intentions were in that moment, but I interpreted that as him trying to teach Kaladin to get his own vengeance and take care of himself. A twisted and regretful lesson sure, but Moash is a twisted and regretful character. I do want to contest that he kicked Gavinor. the text says he 'shoved aside the weeping child with his foot.' It's kind of a distinction. On that note, yes, from our perspective, Elhokar was protecting his child. From Moash's perspective, Elhokar was the leader of an invading force kidnapping the son of Queen Aesudan who was allied with the Singers. He's immediately retrieved by a member of the Queen's Guard after Elhokar has fallen. A battle is messy and chaotic. One side's rescue is another side's kidnapping. I'm also pretty convinced by the idea of the dagger being Hemalurgy. That has some pretty wild implications if the gemstone is somehow able to alter the way the power is accessed or manifests. Anyways, let's move onto some wild speculation, aka the reason I'm so obssessed with Moash. I'm really enamored with the idea that Odium, that is Rayse, is killed at the end of book five, and someone else picks up Odium and continues the fight. I'd like that person to be Moash. I think he'd make a great antagonist for the rest of the series. He's already convinced that Roshar, as it stands, is unworthy. If, in the final conflict, Kaladin dies, not even by Moash's hand, I could even see him turning on Odium, taking up the Shard, and then waging a holy war of Vengence against Roshar for killing the only good thing in the world. And storms, that thought scares me.

Well, I think it's important to note that neither of them were given sketches. Bluth actually straight up steals his sketch, and Elhokar specifically asks to keep her sketch after she wants to draw him for her collection. They sought out the sketches. I think you might be interested in this topic, which goes in-depth into how that kind of stuff works. Basically, we came to the conclusion that they won' be affected by her influence unless they see themselves as being that person and want to make that change. It's a matter of perception, and changing that internal perception enough to allow that investiture to make a change take a firm hold.

[Jasnah looked out the window at the man guarding Dalinar, the one with the strange sword. I spent all that time and all those spheres hiring assassins and if I had a rock I would have had the greatest assassin on the planet protecting my family. She was a storming fool sometimes.]

Sent my brother a link to the thread. Here's his addition:

So I thought it might be fun to have a satire thread to blow off a little steam about some of the stuff we thought we might have missed out on this book by coming up with our own scenes for it! To start off, I'm bringing in one I did in the wedding thread about a Szeth and Dalinar reconciliation that totally makes sense and takes little time and could have been in the book amIright? (I'm going to suggest we put all of our satire scenes in italics) ----- ["Hey tight-butt, this is my friend the assassin in white. He's a good guy and stuff now. He's got a sword that tried to eat me, but it was hungry so I forgave it. Anyway, you be nice to him or I'm going to steal all your lunches from now until forever. Got it?"] ------- How about a scene if Adolin ever was the bearer of Nightblood? ["You're not even a good sword for me. I'm a duelist, you're a...something." I'm the best sword for anyone. You just have to draw me. "I can't even hold stormlight, how am I supposed to draw you?" What if I promise not to eat you? "Can you do that?" Well, I haven't yet, but doesn't that cousin of yours say something about past performance not being an indicator of future result? "She's a Veristitalian. She'd be insulted at the very idea." Oh. Well. I'm much better than that Mayaloser. I'll show you. All you have to do is draw me. Szeth drew me all the time.] ----- How about another Zahel scene? There were far too few of those. ["No, leave me out of this. Make pretend nonsense like that makes me eat the wrong flower."] Oh, ok then. ---- Shallan and Pattern after the wedding. [Shallan blushed. "It's just not proper Pattern. I won't allow it. Don't make me summon you as a Blade and leave you somewhere!" Pattern hummed, agitated. "But how am I to learn? You tell me not to watch other people. mMmMmmm You tell me not watch you. mMmMmmm If I am not to watch anyone, and you will not speak of it, how will I ever bring knowledge back to my people?"] ----- Let's check back with with VivAzure and the Honorspren. [Azure flicked one of the beads up into the air and watched as it landed. "Colors. That was a terrible throw." Notum scratched his chin. "I still do not understand. Why is this game so needlessly complicated?" Azure rubbed her forehead between two fingers. "These people had a lot of time on their hands. You don't even want to hear the story of how they invented it." Behind them, the rest of the crew unceremoniously dumped the last of the Fused overboard and into the sea of churning beads.] ----- What have you guys got?

I think it was mentioned on the discord by Peter and then moved onto the forums? I tried to find the source but I'm having trouble pinning it down. I am confident that I'm remembering correctly, but yesterday was one storming bad twenty four hour shift and I've gotten too little sleep to function as well as I normally would.

I don't expect a Lirin death, I just expect a showdown over Roshone, and that's when Kal says the fourth ideal, from my expectations.

I also want to add the the Larkin are a juvenile form of Lanceryns, the Greatshells of aimia.

Shhhh...he can hear you...and if he can hear you, he can hunt you

You don't need luck when you've got deep pockets and the loot boxes keep flowing...I mean yeah basically

EA runs the Cosmere. This is the evil Nightblood was meant to destroy. Down with pay to win!

Oh yeah, I forgot it's mentioned on her end as well, thanks!

The theory I've seen floating around is Ico is Timbre's father, and she's the "daughter chasing stupid dreams." I apologize, I don't know who originated the theory so I don't know to whom credit belongs for it.

Sweet, thanks! And right when my upvotes refreshed too. In that case, I'd put them right here, next to Shulin and that river somewhere.

Elhokar is the closest person to Dalinar outside of his two sons. He's known him hid whole life. Dalinar gifted him his shards before he was born. Dalinar's men patrol for him, guard for him. Dalinar is one of the most accomplished warriors in the world and no one knows shardplate better than he does. Ru order about Dalinar are that he's weak, not ambitious, and he's never been subtle. Elhokar has all the evidence he needs. It literally takes Dalinar demonstrating that Elhokar is a babe in his hands to disabuse Elhokar if the idea that Dalinar wants to kill him. For me, the theory dies here. yes it's a joke, but you don't go from saying "Dang son, I don't think a rockslide could kill you you're so good. We need to get you some magic armor so you stop making me look bad" to "I'm going to try to kill him inside his magic armor with a rockslide" when his career has only become a thousand times more accomplished in the meantime. But there are the other holes. The uniforms aren't correct. Sadeas wouldn't fake his own uniforms incorrectly. They are definitely Rifters. Also, why would Sadeas implicate himself? Why not another Highprince Rival? There's sooooooooo much less risk that way and the plan works exactly the same as long as they have a shardbearer, and there's the added bonus of casting suspicions on a rival instead of on yourself. There's twelve years between when Gavilar sends Dalinar to fight on the border and when he attacks the Rift. That's a long time for this con, and for Gavilar to start it the day Adolin is born? Unlikely.

Ivory said they were heading for Honor's perpendicularity. Beyond that, we know from Hoid they were a week from Civilization, and here are all the geographical details in the epilogue, though I'm afraid someone else will have to piece together the puzzle.