DeployParachute

Oh. I did not realize that thread was closed down? Bummer, because I thought that despite what may have happened with respect to some of the more heated posts, the thread itself contained a lot of good, well thought out content on the subject from a variety of members and perspectives. Seems a shame that all of that is discounted due to a few mispoken or heated words. And I certainly had no intention of causing anyone to relive bad memories regarding a thread, I was just trying to point someone towards a thread that was more dedicated to a topic they seemed interested in contributing to. Sorry if my comments on the old thread seemed insensitive to that. As for the rest of the post, I did get a little concerned about the sarcastic tone until I saw your last line. I thought my post had communicated my openness to both possibilities of Shadolin and Shalladin, and thought for a moment that I was losing my touch. I am, however, left thinking that maybe your sarcastic humor response is a signal that you're tired of beating this dead horse, which I can understand and respect. Just want you to know that I don't respond to your comments on this topic because I'm looking to rub your face in anything, or give the impression that I know more about what is to come in the books. It is always because I find your posts to be very civil, respectful, thought provoking, and fun to engage in.

Just want to point out that there is already a lot of content and discussion on the Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin dynamic over in the Shallan's Relationship thread, and I'd seriously recommend moving some of that discussion over there. I know I've had a lot of good back and forth with others while on the good old S.S. Shalladin, which can be found starting here. Maxal: I'll just take an eensy weensy moment to say that a lot of your new points concerning Shallan/Adolin and Shallan/Kaladin intrigue me, and I can't help but post some kind of rebuttal . You say that it is unfair to assume that Adolin would be unable to understand Shallan or connect with her at a deeper level regarding her pain, because they haven't had the opportunity for her to share with him that side of herself, that they haven't been together long enough for that to happen. Just because it hasn't happened yet does not mean he isn't capable of bonding with her in that way. That being said, I would use that same logic to say that it is unfair to assume that Kaladin is incapable of appreciating Shallan's art in a way that would make her feel like that aspect of her life and personality was valued by him. He certainly admired her work during the chasm scenes (if mostly for their usefulness in rescuing them), but again, he hasn't had much opportunity in which to admire her work in situations that didn't also require him to view her with mistrust and great scrutiny. Now that their relationship and understanding of one another has changed, is it not possible that Kaladin could have more of those opportunities in which to demonstrate his appreciation, if not for art in general, but for her art in particular? Some further thoughts: Adolin - background of privilege, wealth, and prestige, which has shaped many of his positive traits, and some negative. He was raised in a caste of society to appreciate finer things not normally reserved for those whose day to day is more focused on survival. This lifestyle also made it more difficult for him to have any sort of encounters that would leave him broken in the same sense as Shallan and Kaladin, so it may be harder for him to understand pain of that level. Does this make him incapable of it in the future? No, I don't think so, and he most certainly will get better acquainted with such pain over the next few books. Something he can relate to both Shallan and Kaladin in the future, you betcha. Kalladin - background of a somewhat comfortable poorer class. From a small town, mostly made up of the working class in Alethkar. Does Kaladin have to work in the fields for his family's survival? No. Does he still have responsibilities and training that would make leisurely pursuits of the finer arts a luxury of time he does not have? Yes. Does this mean that he, or anyone else of said lower class are incapable of appreciating art? Absolutely not, and in fact, I'm pretty sure WoK flashback scene has something about Tien creating carvings while at his carpentry apprenticeship that Kaladin certainly admired for their beauty, if not for their practicality. I believe Kaladin has it within him to appreciate art enough that he could share it with Shallan. He's just been conditioned by his background to see fine art as something frivolous only enjoyed by the wealthy. I'm sure Shallan's enthusiasm will help undo some of that conditioning.

I'll admit that this is kind of morbid, but I tell my wife regularly that if I am ever in some kind of accident or illness that prevents me from being able to enjoy a story (in any form: book, tv, movie what have you) then she can pull the plug. I can't imagine getting older and not being able to(or not wanting to) read. It is one of the few things in life that I can point to emphatically and say "That! That is my passion". Back to the thread topic: only a little bit out from 30 myself, finished my bachelor's in Comp. Science almost 8 years ago. Married DINK (Dual Income/No Kids), and just recently moved across the country to a state that will almost certainly give me skin cancer at some point. Weather sure is nice, though. I'd say adult life is sitting well with me, surely beats being broke and struggling to pay bills in college. Someone would have to pay me to go back. I never have been a fan of the traditional school setting.

Q: Please don't tell me you're going to do a love triangle between Adolin, Kaladin, and Shallan. A: [Phrased very carefully] I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle. However, I am fond of conflict in relationships. You know, I see Brandon's answer to that question thrown around a lot, and I never really paid much attention to it until now. Brandon says he's not a fan of the "traditional" love triangle. Well, what the heck does Brandon consider to be "traditional" concerning this common writing trope? I mean, there are many ways to skin this particular cat, and I don't see any one way used more than the others that I could specifically point to it and say "Yep, that's the traditional definition of what a love triangle is". Also, many people on the boards and other SA fan locations seem to be absolutely dreading the possibility of a love triangle (which I have never understood btw). Do people who maintain a strong negative position towards the love triangle trope hate all forms a triangle can take, or is it specifically against their own definition of what a traditional love triangle is? Just some mindless ramblings as I lay here unable to fall asleep... Also, some examples of various forms love triangles can take (which one is Brandon referring to as "traditional" do you think, which do you?): Person A loves Person B, and Person C loves Person A Person A loves B, and B loves C, and C loves A Person A and B loves C, and C is oblivious to both Person A loves Stick, Person B loves Stick, and Stick loves them both because Stick is Stick?

I would also assume that given the nature of Shardplate when it is damaged or pieces destroyed, that the fine ornamentation, paint, lacquer etc would need to be reapplied after every battle. However, I suppose if anyone can afford the upkeep of such ostentatious armor, it would be Alethi Shardbearers.

So I've been following maxal's and Kyat's back and forth on this topic, and there was such good content, I of course felt compelled to chime in. Wow...it's actually been awhile, anyway, here goes: 1. Dalinar's trust in Kaladin. I can understand to a degree why some would find it dubious that Dalinar would place such a high level of trust in someone he had never met, but to claim it was reckless and irresponsible? I instead would argue that Dalinar really didn't have a whole lot of choice in the matter. I try to place myself in his position and see things how he must have seen them, and in fact I feel this is easy to do given all of the book text made available to us. WoR is filled with all kinds of reasons why Dalinar put Kaladin in charge of his personal guard and the bridgeman, and many of them are very good. Here he is at the end of WoK having just survived the biggest betrayal he's ever suffered (to our knowledge) that resulted in the slaughtering of the vast majority of his experienced soldiers and officers at the hands of a man he thought was his dearest friend. He now has the extremely difficult task of determining who is left for him to trust with the protection of himself, his family, and his king, and there is a high likelihood of further betrayal and assassination attempts. So, when you are now working with extremely limited resources in manpower, and especially manpower that you can trust, what would be better than to utilize the skills of a man who had risked his life and those of his men to pull you out of the fire at great personal risk to themselves(with very little chance of success I might add). Perhaps Dalinar would have chosen differently if he had some better alternatives, but really, what other options were there? Offering Kaladin the position, as well as the 1000 bridgemen a place in his army was the best choice to be made to increase his likelihood of survival and success despite the "risks" that came inherent with placing such trust in Kaladin. And concerning trusting in Kaladin's abilities regarding training bridgemen into being competent soldiers? Did Kaladin not just demonstrate his ability to do that with bridge 4? Kaladin took these men from a hopeless situation, and helped them find their way back to purpose and unity, he helped them become men again. Not only did he do that, but he also inspired them to be better than they could be as individuals, and trained them to work as a fighting unit that could hold a bridge against a horde of Parshendi! So maybe Dalinar recognizes that training a group of 35 odd men is not on the same scale as training a 1000, but again, what other option does he have? He literally just purchased the freedom of all of these men, and offered them a place in his army should they want, but where else does he get the leadership resources to train them the way they need to be trained? All of his own experienced officers and sergeants (as he said so himself) are needed to shoring up his own fresh recruits. Plus, if you think about it, it's not like he had a whole lot to lose compared to the big benefits he could reap from that gamble. If the bridgeman army failed, he only wasted money, which was not as precious to him as much as time was. Dalinar had pretty solid evidence in seeing what Kaladin did with bridge 4 to believe that if anyone was capable of turning helpless hopeless slaves into a solid fighting force, it would be Kaladin. TL;DR: I don't understand your phrases going back and forth claiming that Dalinar's trust in Kaladin being outright irresponsible. Being in his position, he made the best possible choices available to him at the time, both in maximizing his "winnings" and minimizing his "risks". But again, just my opinion. 2. Kaladin's quick mastery of the Gravity surge vs Shallan's struggle with Lightweaving. Maybe it is just my own interpretation of the books, but I see Lightweaving as a vastly more difficult skill to learn and master. Shallan has to learn how to shape the images, she has to learn how to make them move, she has to learn that she is able to even bind it to Pattern for a time. Plus, Shallan had to do all of this while likely being hampered by her own mental blocks surrounding her abilities. There is much evidence in the text that Pattern suggests that Shallan's younger self (pre-carpet once white) was a much greater master at the surge. Now, she has to draw the images out just to get them to work. All Kaladin had to technicallly "learn" was how to orient gravity in a different direction. The rest for him was practicing getting adjusted from one orientation to another, and to string them together. Again, no new "learning" or discovery really, just practicing at changing the direction of gravity's pull on himself, and to me this just doesn't appear to require as much thought or reflection as Shallan's Lightweaving. Anyway, that's all for me now, just felt compelled to add to the discussion

So...I think there may be a continuity error with the new chapter posting. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but would be interested in hearing others' thoughts. From the sample chapter This passage talks about how Kaladin had just replaced his old and bloodied uniform with a fresh one before starting out for home. In another forum thread, I had posted how there was a whole week in between the Alethi's arrival at Urithiru, and the revelation of the imminent everstorm and Kaladin's decision to depart immediately: Chapter 89 "The Four" takes place a week after 88. p1066 Words of Radiance hardback "A week had passed since they had arrived at this place, and the people of the warcamps had finally started to arrive..." So...Kaladin wore his bloody and torn uniform for the whole week without grabbing a change of clothes while living at Urithiru? I suppose it is possible, but I doubt that that is the intention meant to be conveyed. So if I assume that during that week, Kaladin had decided to change his clothes (even if only at the prompting from others), why bother mentioning it in this sample chapter? Of course his clothes would be different, or so we as the readers should have naturally assumed based on the exposition from the previous book. Is it possible that while writing this tidbit of the next book it may have slipped Brandon's mind that our characters spent a whole week in Urithiru?

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, I have signed up. Been a fan for many years, I can't believe I didn't know about it. I mean...it's like right there...derp

Darn it. Which newsletter? I know I'm signed up for Tor's. Can someone send me link where I can subscribe? Also, Peter, would it be cheating if I signed up and someone "retroactively" sent me the extended version? :-)

Yes, agree with you that human sexuality as a whole is not binary, and liking one gender does not preclude one from liking another. I have not seen any post here arguing against this. Now perhaps a better way that maxal's point could have been presented was to say that on an individual basis, there is a stronger likelihood for that person's sexuality to be binary, and there are statistics based on polls to support that. Whether one chooses to put much weight into such data is up to that person, polls can be misleading after all, statistics fudged and so forth. So what does this have to do with the argument at hand? Probably not much, like you said, this is a fantasy world, and transplanting real world statistics and data into it kind of takes the fun out of everything. Though something to consider: it is my understanding that sexual orientation/preferences, while a combination of both biological and social factors, the biological factor plays a bigger role. Rosharans are depicted as biologically human (though there is a much greater variation in the genome it appears), and is it so far fetched to believe that the same biological factors that influence the percentages on the sexual spectrum here on Earth wouldn't also come into play on Roshar? Just a thought. Probably a poor choice of words in the first sentence. Life trajectory seems to cover a very broad spectrum here, and I think you probably agree that one's sexual orientation and preferences certainly do impact decisions and directions made during an individual's life. So let's just stick to the scholarship aspect of Jasnah's choices. I agree with you wholeheartedly that Jasnah has an innate passion for her scholarship, and her sexual preferences have nothing to do with that. Perhaps the better way of explaining what I think maxal's point was is to say that her sexual preferences could have influenced how she chose to pursue those passions. What do I mean by this? Well, Jasnah always struck me as an individual who preferred to keep to her own devices. She's a lone wolf, and she tackled her scholarship in such a fashion. She is very intelligent, very critical of the world and her environment, a good skeptical scientific mind, and is not afraid to speak out against the mainstream. She seems guarded, and not particularly concerned with having very many close relationships with others. She has a few, but even those don't seem to top her priority list. Not saying she doesn't care about those close to her, just that the way her mind works includes a mechanism of prioritization that can seem to come off as very cold and calculated. Nothing wrong with this, and to those that know her well, they know it is not the whole truth of her. All and all, though, it always seemed to me that Jasnah has chosen a life very isolated from others in the pursuit of her passion: scholarship. This is the picture (I believe) of the character that many readers have taken a heavy interest in and liking to, maxal included. It is my understanding from the postings that maxal prefers to believe that Jasnah made these choices based on internal factors of her personality rather than external, as that is what makes her seem a more interesting character to maxal (and likely others but not all). However, considering the possibility Jasnah may not be heterosexual also means that maxal had to consider how that possibility has an effect on her choices in pursuit of scholarship. The fear of potentially being ostracized by friends and family for one's sexual orientation is a common literary device these days, and it's not much of a stretch to believe should Jasnah turn out to not be heterosexual then such a device is a possibility. Did she invest more heavily in her isolated scholarship because sharing in her scholarship too deeply with others risked outing her? Did diving more heavily into scholarship help prevent her from having to be confronted about marriage to someone not of her sexual preference? This introduces an external factor that could have caused Jasnah to choose a means of pursuing her scholarship that she would not have chosen should that external factor been absent. It is a possibility, and as you have stated many times throughout these forums, just because it is not written does not mean it can't happen. If one is not allowed to rule out a character having a non binary sexual preference unless it is explicitly written, then so too should one not be allowed to rule out the possibility that Jasnah's sexual orientation could have had an impact on how she chose to pursue her scholarship. Maxal was only stating that should this scenario turn out to be the case, it would take a bit away from what maxal liked about the character, because the motivations behind Jasnah's approach to her scholarship would have changed. Maxal has every right to have this opinion on the matter. Maxal is not stating that he/she does not want Jasnah to be homosexual or bisexual or wherever else on the spectrum she could be. Nor is Maxal excluding the possibility that she could be any of those things. Maxal's posts focus on Jasnah's sexuality having an influence on her scholarship, and her marital status. In all of such posts, I did not see anywhere where maxal stated with certainty what would be the outcome of her sexual preferences. Maxal always seemed to speak in the realm of possibility. Subsequently, your responses on the other hand... ...seem to disregard this and ascribe to maxal's words a measure of certainty that is not there. You also seem reconstruct maxal's argument into one of "treating non-heterosexual identity as the sole driving force in her life...". Again, not the argument that I think maxal was trying to make. Could the wording of maxal's arguments been different to better communicate the ideas? Maybe. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what maxal was trying to say entirely. Regardless, the misunderstanding seems to have resulted in a muddling of maxal's original idea. No one likes to be flamed for an opinion they weren't trying to put forth, and I can see why maxal would have gotten upset. I hope you see this too, and I hope that there is room in the future for more positive discussions. All in all, I enjoyed writing this, because it really got me thinking about a character that I hadn't spent much time on in the past, and it has enriched my enjoyment of her and the possibilities she presents to the rest of the novels.

Thanks for the support, but now, thanks to TheBrian, I'm actually considering moving my vote to Stick, because Stick doesn't deserve to be alone... ... ... now I've gone and made myself sad.

Negative, Ghostrider, you have your timeline mixed up. WoR hardback edition, Chapter 75 "True Glory". In this chapter, Dalinar's forces are already preparing for the march. In p884-886: Dalinar is sprinting to where Shallan and Kaladin are after having been informed of their survival. After this scene ends on p886, Shallan's perspective takes over, and the very first sentence is "One hour later, Shallan snuggled into a nest of warm blankets." So an hour time, and Shallan is bathed and recovering. during the next few pages, she has Pattern spy on Dalinar and Navani, reuinites with Adolin, and convinces Dalinar to take her along.886-891. At the end of p891, Dalinar declares "Gather your things and send word to your uncle Sebarial, Brightness. We're leaving within the hour. Without parshmen." This concludes part 4. So, we have at maximum, a 2 hour separation between the time that Kaladin and Shallan leave each other's company, to the departure of the army for the plains, of which Kaladin is of course not participating. An hour of that time was involved with her recovering, bathing, and securing her position on the expedition. She also has the expected reunion with Adolin. So there is not a major gap of time here in which a failure to check on Kaladin's "health" would be an indicator of a lack of caring or concern. I mean, she just left a tent full of surgeons swarming all over him, and he was being bundled off by bridge 4 back to their barracks. I think she was right in assuming he was going to be okay long enough for her to get some of the other priorities taken care of. I don't think your argument here holds water, but let's continue... Part 5 begins with Chapter 76 viewpoint Kaladin on page 921, on it we see "After showering him with praise and enthusiasm, the men of Bridge Four had gone to join the army for its expedition...". Again, we have more confirmation on the short amount of time that passed between Shal and Kal arriving and the army departing. Chapter 76 is, of course, an oft quoted chapter by Shalladin shippers, as it contains the little nuggets of glimpses into Shallan's updated feelings on Kaladin, as well as his new feelings for her. p928 "Kaladin found himself standing up amid the bridgemen, despite the pain of his leg, as he noticed Adolin and Shallan riding past." p929: "She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself." Now Shallan doesn't see Kaladin before leaving like he sees her, but she does think about him in the next chapter on p936, i'll spare you the quote, as I'm sure you're tired of reading it. So, very short timespan, likely less than 2 hours between their arrival back at the warcamps and the army's departure. Shallan does not go out of her way to track Kaladin down to check on him, but then again...why would she need to? She just saw him, he was safe, mostly whole, and on his way to bed rest, while she had just succeeded on planting herself on mission with a clear goal she needed to accomplish. Despite all that, she does spare some time thinking about him, and that to me is significant from a story development perspective. So let's talk Urithuru: Again, let's start with the timelines. Chapter 87 "The Riddens", p 1048, Kaladin ends his perspective with teleporting to Urithiru, and we pick up with Shallan. During Kaladin's fight, the survivors of the battle have already started to explore the tower, spearheaded by Adolin. How long did it take Kaladin to dispose of Szeth and travel back to the gate after the army teleported away? An hour? Two, let's say two and be generous. Same chapter p1050, Kaladin returns, and shows off his mastery of Gravity, and everyone sees that he is not only fine, he is fully healed from his stormlight. So again, no reason for her to worry about his health or any issues like that. Next Chapter, 88 "The Man Who Owned The Winds", starts off with "They soon began to move into the tower. There was nothing else they could do...Night was approaching, and the temperature was dropping outside." So same day as their arrival, and in this chapter, they have had a couple hours of exploration after their arrival, followed by Shallan's encounter with Mraize, and her and Adolin prior to her entering her bedchamber for the night. Again, not a significant amount of time in my mind that would make me question her caring levels for Kaladin. She has several things going on, and rightly so, she ensures a visit with Adolin first. I mean, they are betrothed and all. After Chapter 89 "The Four" takes place a week after 88. p1066 "A week had passed since they had arrived at this place, and the people of the warcamps had finally started to arrive..." So a whole week, and I will admit that that is a significant amount of time for interactions between characters to happen. Unfortunately, since there is nothing written describing those events, we can only guess as to what the characters may have been up to and who had been talking to whom (is that usage right? summon the grammar nazis). Maybe Kaladin and Shallan did have a couple of chats, maybe they didn't. Maybe Kaladin and Adolin sat down for a nice game of cards. Maybe Rock was caught dancing naked and drunk out on a terrace singing about the virtues of Horneater lager. So yes, you are right that we have no written evidence as to a follow up interaction between Kaladin and Shallan at Urithiru, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened, and in fact I believe it was very likely they interacted. Brandon either didn't have the time/space in the novel to show it, or he didn't feel it was important at this time. So now we get to the part of your argument that I think has some merit.

I didn't declare them to be "deeply bonded", I stipulated that a major argument being presented by Shalladan shippers is that Kaladin and Shallan have formed a deeper bond than her and Adolin. I would agree that they are no where near a state where one could consider them deeply bonded, but I think the argument is still sound to say that the turnaround in their interactions and relationship with one another has changed a lot more drastically than her and Adolin. Over the span of one section of the book, Kaladin and Shallan have gone from suspicion, distrust, and sometimes outright loathing and hostility into one of friendliness, understanding, and admiration. And all of this was accomplished by getting their true feelings and thoughts out in the open, and sharing very personal and emotionally upsetting aspects about themselves on the level that quite frankly we have just not seen much of between Adolin and Shallan. Hope that that sufficiently explains what I meant by that section of my post, but again, never know until I get feedback. Now, as to the second part of your question, I will concede that the interactions between Kaladin and Shallan after the chasm scene are practically non-existent. But I would consider this to be more of a consequence of the circumstances surrounding the continuation of the plot. There is no time or opportunity for them to interact with the remaining plot within the book, and of course their focus during the climax (and rightly so) is on more important things. Actually, this seems indicative to me of Brandon's ability to write a decent triangle story, as most people's gripes about it appear to be over concerns with it getting in the way of the plot. Well, if WoR is any indication, I don't think we have to worry much about that. And once Shallan and Kaladin do have another scene together in the future, I think you'll see the impact of their experiences and deeper bond playing out in a positive direction (and yes, I believe it will be romantically). With all that being said, I won't lie and say it doesn't concern me a little that there wasn't another scene in the last few chapters of the book in which we see a little bit more of Kal or Shallan's thoughts on one another revealed further. I would have liked to see that iron struck while it was hot. This could be reflective of the necessary pacing of the final pages, but in the end, who can say what Brandon has in mind. I think that if we don't see another interaction between the two of them before Kaladin goes flying off to Hearthstone, then that is a good indication that Brandon intends to let them simmer on the back burner while he focuses on developing Shallan and Adolin's relationship and then ultimately having them fall apart. SA3 reading spoiler

Hi, welcome to the boards. As for getting some perspective on the Shalladin shippers arguments for Kaladin and Shallan ending up together, I'd recommend reading through many of the previous pages on this topic, as many people have contributed to both presenting a case as well as refuting it. Seloun has some really good posts for pro Shalladin, as do many others, and I'll admit I have written some very lengthy entries myself. You can also find a lot of good content in the "Kaladin's Relationship" thread as well. Sorry, it's late and I don't have the mental energy to start going back through and digging up quotes from the thread, so I'll just summarize what I feel are the main arguments that have been made: 1. While on the surface, Adolin and Shallan appear to be a good match, they don't have very much in common, and most of their interactions have been superficial. 2. Kaladin and Shallan appear to have formed a deeper bond in the few times they have interacted together than the one that Shallan and Adolin have currently. Whether the moments of connection in the chasm is a result of circumstance, or their growing comfort/trust around each other has been a big focus of the debate. Also, your statement about her not acknowledging Kaladin after she is back with Adolin is simply untrue, as evidenced by the scene where the armies are marching out to the plains, and She actually spaces out thinking about Kaladin while Adolin is talking to her. She is comparing the two in her head, and her description of Kaladin is quite flattering. She blushes when she realizes she completely missed the things Adolin had been saying to her. 3. Finally, and this is an argument that I like to push a lot, from a writing and plot development perspective, Brandon has dropped many nuggets throughout WoR of future relationship entanglements between Kaladin and Shallan. Some examples of such can be: Kaladin's hesitation to reveal the truth of Heleran's death. I found one on my last reread, where Syl talks to Kaladin about Cryptics for the first time, and Kaladin thinks "What kind of Knight Radiant would be made by a group of spren Syl so obviously detested. It didn't sound like someone he'd want to get to know". (oh ho ho, Kaladin, little do you know the foreshadowing your creator is using, don't worry, you'll get to know her soon) Shallan stating that great art is "a study in contrast", with many references in the book concerning Kal and her contrasts. Kaladin hates rainy gloomy weather, Shallan finds it comforting. Kaladin is a morning person, Shallan prefers to sleep in. Combine that with some Words of Brandon we have where he talks about a lot of these same contrasts exist between himself and his wife, it doesn't seem to far of a stretch to think he is recreating a bit of what he considers to be an interesting relationship here within the books. So the way I look at it is, Adolin and Shallan is one aspect of a writer's "sleight of hand" trick. They are what he draws your attention to. Focus on this relationship, see this relationship here I've set up so nicely, taking main stage and keeping your attention? Pay no attention to what my other hand is doing, writing these subtle lines, interactions, and subplot so that I can spring it on you later down the story. New thoughts and points, thanks for sharing. Here are some of my thoughts triggered by what you have written. 1. I'll preface this by saying that everyone has had many different experiences than me relationship wise, and I'm by no means claiming to be an expert. That being said, it has never seemed that in my own relationships or those of my close friends and family in which a successful, long lasting romantic relationship was shared between two people who had very little in common. Not saying it's impossible, just that I have not seen it, so I remain skeptical. 2. Escapes are nice, but constantly being in a state of avoidance of one's problems doesn't seem like a very appealing way to approach life or relationships long term to me. And I would disagree that Shallan is "at ease" with Adolin. Every interaction she has with Adolin is very carefully thought out, controlled, measured, calculated. Throughout the book she is constantly thinking about how to keep him interested in her, how not to hold on too tight that she pushes him away (compares that behavior to how her father treated her), how she needs to say the right things. With Kaladin, she does not worry about what he thinks of her, nor what she says to him. She says what's on her mind, and doesn't worry about what he thinks about it. Talk about being able to be oneself versus not. And Kaladin in turn responds very well to her real thoughts, feelings, and personality. 3. Sure Shallan defends those she doesn't necessarily care for. Don't think you could call the deserters she picked up in the plains people she particularly "cared" for, but she still defended their potential to be honorable men. She also defended the men that attacked her and Jasnah in WoK, reprimanding Jasnah for taking such harsh actions. Shallan strikes me as someone who doesn't like people being bullied (as she and her family had been bullied by her father). Kaladin was being an chull, during the scene you reference, plain and simple. It seemed to me that Shallan was responding to that and calling him out on his crap and hypocrisy, more so than any particular need to defend Adolin. Now I'm not saying she doesn't care for Adolin, I just don't think her defending him is evidence for those feelings. Nor do I feel her defense of Adolin is an indicator of her lack of interest or caring for Kaladin. She cares about a lot of people, and I feel confident in saying that Kaladin is, at least, a part of that subset. 4. The fact that arranged marriages is Brandon's "usual" leads me to believe the opposite of your own conclusion: it is time to diverge, and I feel the writing up to this point supports that. See my 3rd point to hurricaneez. Again, thank you both for sharing, I always enjoy shipping conversations.

The fact that me asking Brandon "what affect does the spren bond have on a human's lifespan" resulted in an RAFO card leads me to believe that you are most likely correct on this one.

So Kaladin is a Windrunner, not a Skybreaker, and the Windrunner associated with Jezrien and the attributes "Protecting" and "Leading". We already have two spoken ideals from the Windrunners related to "protecting", and I feel that the remaining two slots out of the 5 are likely to be related to "Leading". Kaladin has been set up in the 3rd book to have a story arch that deals with learning to lead and inspire a wide variety of people into working together to achieve a common goal, and I see it all as starting in Hearthstone. Kaladin is not going to seek justice against those who did him wrong, he learned that lesson in the last book. Instead, he will have to prove to the townspeople that he is worthy of leadership, more so than their current lighteyes. He will need to gain their respect, and in turn they will bestow leadership upon him. Or some such. Those are my thoughts on Kaladin's future story arc. Haha, as a fellow Shalladin shipper, I thought this very thing: “I’ll have you know I put a ton of thought into it,” Syl said in a huff, “I spend positively hours thinking of just how-- OOH! What’s that!” Seems to me that Syl sees/feels something from Kaladin concerning Shallan, and is trying to elicit a similar response from Kaladin towards her... ...or she could really just be doing her usual silly Syl stuff. Either way, I like how her personality is constantly growing and developing as their bond grows, and I definitely think this is a future indicator that Syl is very capable of feelings of jealousy in the future.

Very well said. Their breaking off (even if it is only for a time) is crucial for both their characters' development and the overarching story. As for your last sentence, as a Shalladin shipper, I feel compelled to say instead something like "Yeah, vanilla ice cream is super great and all, until you try yourself some rocky road." Again, only after her first love Kaladin dies a heroic death defeating Odium in an epic jazz flute duel. I mean, Wit didn't give him that flute for nothing... hmmmmm... Also, a better example of a movie with a moody, bad tempered male lead butts heads with the female love interest at first: Val Kilmer and Sorsha. ...this may or may not have been inspired by another forum member's handle...I can't be sure

Come now, American Pie had nothing to do with a bad boy. If anything, it was about a true nerd, who is trying desperately to be the cool bad boy, but is shown by the nerd girl that he is truly a nerd after all. Jim certainly never did anything "moody" or "bad boy" worthy. He was a comic relief character And Titanic? You thought Jack was grumpy and moody? Ha. Even when they were facing down certain doom, he was the most positive mutha on that ship. His passion and zest for life is what woke Rose up and saved her from what would otherwise been a life complete devoid of laughter, joy, adventure, and passion. Unless we're switching the roles around and Shallan is supposed to be Jack? Does that mean she gets to draw a nude of Kaladin wearing the Heart of the Ocean? And Grease. Two teens meet randomly for the summer, and not being bound by any of their existing social constructs fall in love with each other and have the greatest summer of their lives. Once they are back in school, though, the bad boy must protect his image, and comes off as an chull. Not quite the same as Kaladin and Shallan's interactions where they start off instantly disliking each other (not using hate...it is too strong). Anyway, I think the stance I'm going to take is that any possible love story or trope that you can conceive of has been done somehow, some way before. The "Eww..that's just too cliche and trope-y" reasoning for shooting down someone else's shipping arguments probably should be dropped by all shippers, as it can be easily pointed at any ship and fired successfully.

Hi, sorry I cut out the rest of your post to save space, but you made a lot of great points, and this first sentence really sums up your argument very succinctly, so I'll respond to it. I think that this is really something that ultimately people are just going to disagree on. Too many perspectives, and everyone will feel different (even perhaps the characters in the books). Some people want a person who is as close to them as possible, other people like the excitement that someone different from them provides. Having said this, I will now try to provide evidence that Shallan is the kind of person who feels the latter. Really missing my book right now, so I'll just try to get it as close as possible. In the chasm scene, Shallan spends a good two paragraphs or so arguing the exact opposite of your point. She describes truly great art as being a study in contrast. Here we see Shallan providing evidence of her opinion on the matter, so I think it is reasonable that while your preference for romantic partners might be against opposites, hers may not be so. I will point out that I am not arguing that Adolin and Shallan aren't different, cause they are, but neither can we rule out Kaladin just because he's too opposite of her, I think. Ha, yeah. The first tandem jump I ever did, I spent a good 45 min going through 20 page contract signing any and all rights away before I could board a plane. That contract had me more worried about my decision than did sitting next to the open door in plane looking at the ground as I rose 13k feet. Ultimately though, these places are very good about safety and maintenance for jumpers, and I haven't ever heard of any death as a result of controlled tandem jumping. A great experience that I got to mark off my bucket list, but certainly not for everyone. 1. Hmm. appreciate the response. I'll just say that I do not believe that Kaladin's "honor" as it applies to his Knight Radianthood is tied up in him being completely honest and truthful all the time. Also, Elhokar certainly does share in the blame for what befell Kaladin and his family, as he does for all his actions. But there are also lots of other people who share in that, and to some extend Kaladin himself. Also, I don't think Kaladin now has a consistent set of rules yet, I think that all Knights are going to be in a constant struggle to maintain their oaths, and that will ultimately be their burden in exchange for power. 3. Really really missing my book now, as I feel like i could draw more accurate quotes to illustrate the point better, so I will have to wait a bit to respond to this one (assuming anyone is still interested) 1. And I am sure we are both equally excited to read what Adolin will do when this happens. *sigh* two more years... 2. Cool, thanks for clearing that up. And I think i have agreed elsewhere (maybe in the other thread) that Adolin and Shallan could likely have had a similar experience. Or at least Adolin opening up, Shallan on the other hand, as you said, feels she would have had too much to lose by sharing such a secret with him at this point. 3. Nah, wasn't making an argument, and i didn't find you impartial, I was just stating how interesting it is to see people read characters so differently from myself, and how that transfers to other series as well. 4. Okay, so maybe we should just say this: Adolin certainly cares for her in the sense that he is concerned for her well being and has an interest in her future and happiness. And i would agree with you that Shallan would certainly want this from any man she may decide to date, court, or marry. Though Kaladin cannot be ruled out as a candidate for showing this level of caring at this point. As for "providing care" as it relates specifically to providing shelter and protection, Shallan certainly is not interested in this from her romantic partner. 5. Yeah, it will be difficult to balance screen time between Shallan and Kaladin and the rest of our viewpoint characters, they already have so much. I think your concern about hogging page time is legitimate. As for the bickering, I think a lot of that is more likely a refusal to understand one another at the beginning of their encounters, as well as their on misconceptions and opinions they formed before getting to know one another. Fortunately for me as a Shalladin shipper, most of that has been successfully addressed as a result of the chasm scene, and I would expect that playful engaging banter between the two of them would be the norm from hereon out. Kaladin's depression certainly is an issue, as is Shallan's refusal to stop lying to herself, but I don't see perpetual fighting as the inevitable result of a romantic development between the two of them. Good discussion, until next time.

Oh, how very magnanimous of you. You make what is sure to amount to an incendiary post concerning a turn of phrase that you decided to take issue with; without the slightest consideration the intent of the original poster or the context in which it was used. The original poster comes in with an apology that she shouldn't have had to give, and you accept it because it doesn't challenge your opinions on the matter. Then, as soon as other people post well reasoned arguments about why it was still a valid use of the phrase : ...you fault them for disagreeing with you in the first place, and ask why they still have a problem with your statement now that the original poster acquiesced to your demand. They have every reason to point out your mistaken interpretation of the original poster's phrasing. And then, to cap all of this off, you post what I assume you wanted to be your "final word", where you acknowledge an apology as being unworthy of your acceptance (Apology Acknowledged), then underhandedly hint that those who disagreed with you are sexist (I'd be happy to discuss sexism with either of you in private), and that you are the sole possessor of the correct interpretation of what really happened here (if you want to know in more detail what happened here), and then cut out like the matter is settled and that's all there is to it. Well sorry, I don't need to have a personal message exchange with you to understand what happened here, but you certainly can have my downvote

Ah Maxal and Kaellok, good to see you, as I always enjoy our shipping sparring matches. Though since we have beaten these many horses to death, I will try to focus on the new points brought up. En Garde! (Also, my copy of WoR is currently 1600 mi away from me atm, so I will have to make my arguments from my best memory, apologies) Maxal: Kaellok: Sorry, he'll be dead before she's old enough to be interesting in anything other than food and her awesomeness.

Hey, I absolutely understand. Much of the fun in reading, at least for me, is discovering those moments in the book where I can see myself and my own feelings (be they past or present) mirrored within those of the character(s) on the page. We are going to have an initial interpretation of what we read that is influenced by our own experiences. Then, the fun of the reread comes in, where some of my own perceptions change, especially after I've had a chance to visit such a good community forum where many people have opened up various scenes to different interpretations. Sometimes, I'll think to myself "wow, of course how did I not read it this way before?". Other times, I'll think "hmm, interesting thought, but I still read it this way and I can't seem to shake that at the moment". Also, sometimes I like to poke holes in my own interpretations and theories, and I'm going to do so now in favor of your argument. I can't really say for certain that the feelings Kaladin continues to experience after the chasm aren't some form of idealized crush he has for her. The reason I say this is we simply don't have much interaction between the two of them after those chapters, and it is how they behave around each other moving forward and the future interactions that they are going to have that will tell us if what these two are feeling really was only circumstantial, once we removed them from the situation, or if they continue to linger/develop/grow. Hey, thanks for chiming in. I like your fork analogy, so I'm going to expand upon it, if you don't mind. The cool thing about forked roads is that there is always the possibility of another fork further up the path that can lead back to another. I kind of see Kaladin as having already chosen to step back and let Adolin have dibs, but this doesn't necessarily mean that another choice can't face him along this very same path. That choice could include that option for deciding Shallan is wrong for him, continuing to hold that torch but stepping aside, or even perhaps pursuing his feelings for her. If Sanderson writes it well, this progression of Kaladin's feelings will feel natural, a result of consequences and character development, and hopefully tucked into the background where it doesn't distract from the main plot.

Oh...my...friggin...WORD! How have I not seen any of this until now!!!!

Can I borrow your imagination sometime? Here, have my upvote.

Oh man, was typing up a nice post arguing this very point, and you beat me to it. So i'll just go ahead and attempt to elaborate on this topic and try to understand just what makes a Shard weapon better in some circumstances than a normal weapon. First off, I feel that the number one unique advantage to a Shardblade (note I said blade and not weapon) is that it can pass through living flesh with practically no resistance and sever the soul of the object itself. That is a huge advantage it has over conventional blades when fighting living opponents as it doesn't have to worry about getting stuck on pesky matter like muscle, fat, sinew, bone etc. Take the blade away, however, and replace it with an "impact" weapon such as a mace, a morning star, flail, and you have lost the advantage that the weapon gives you. The shard weapon then is no more effective than a normal weapon made out of steel of this type, perhaps even less so if we assume that the shard weapon is lighter. I also think a good question to ask is: "Can any part of a shard weapon cut the way the blade of a Shardblade does?". It could be that we don't have enough information on this, but it is my interpretation of a shard based weapon that only the blade portion has the "severing" ability. I say this because I have not found anywhere in the text where I have seen the "hilt" of a shardblade used to sever the soul, or cut solid rock. I've also never seen anyone mistakenly cut themselves with the handle of either their own blade or a borrowed blade. Perhaps that's a bad example, so let's look at the other shardweapon we've seen. Kaladin's shardspear. It has a blade, so obviously I would naturally consider this deadly, but then does the haft of the spear also cut in the same way if it comes in contact with living flesh? I don't think so, I think instead if you got hit with this part of the weapon, it wouldn't feel any different than if you had gotten hit with the haft of a normal spear. Some of this might even be because the "intent" of the weapon as seen in the KR's mind forms what the shard weapon will actually do. A spear has a spearhead, which is meant for stabbing, piercing, and maybe occasionally nicking and slicing, while the haft is meant to block, or bash. Similarly, a mace it meant for bashing and blunt force trauma, a morning star similar but with added piercing effect. Some of these weapons "intents" are not very good at playing to the strength of a shard weapon which is "severing" of a living soul or passing easily through non-living matter. So, my question is, unless you did not intent to be directly lethal (maybe you wanted to just smack someone around a bit), what would be the point in summoning a shard weapon that does not give you access to the main benefit of such a weapon? A dart on a chain, unless you were very precise with your throw, does not hit the core of the being, and thus, does nothing. If you have an arrow, unless you got them right through the spine, the head, or the core of a limb, again, it has zero effect. A spiked ball will certainly do some crushing, but unless the spikes are long enough, there is no severing occurring. Just some thoughts on the idea of maximizing the benefits of a shard weapon, and I feel that cutting/slicing deeply into a living enemy is key to this. So in my mind, other weapons may not be as effective in a "lethal" sense.