DeployParachute

Well sure, but I don't see how that situation applies to the discussion at hand, or supports your argument. I would highly suggest you go read the pre-plains marching scene again. Regardless of whether your described situation is more common than my described situation or vice versa, it doesn't change the text of what is going on in the book. There is no scene in the book where Kaladin realizes Shallan isn't right for him (unless you can provide me with one?). Instead, the closest thing we have is a scene where he is standing upon a rock among his bridgemen watching her pass, and hoping hoping hoping that she looks his way, to recognize and acknowledge him they way he seems to be doing with her, and when she doesn't, he pouts a little bit, gets mopey, and then tells himself he's being foolish and perhaps things are better the way they are. That's not the thought process of someone who has realized a girl doesn't fit him, that is the thought process of someone who has decided he'd rather not deal with feelings of rejection at the time, so he'll tuck it far away where it can't bother him. Perhaps if Brandon had only written "The truth was, he liked Adolin. And those two were good for one another. They fit." I would be more inclined to agree with you. But that is not the end of it. Brandon added one more sentence, in its own paragraph after: "Perhaps Kaladin could hate that.". You see, that one sentence changes the entire tone of of Kaladin's thought process from "oh, but they are so good together, good for them" to "yeah, they may be good together, but I'm not happy about it." Kaladin may try to fool himself into thinking she doesn't fit him, but he certainly doesn't believe it. To add another argument against the idea that Kaladin has decided "Well, she doesn't really fit me, so I've let her go already" is that he also spends more time after the aforementioned scene thinking, positively I might add, about her. Here he is, depressed, fighting his SAD (Seasonal Affect Disorder) in the riddens, and the only thing that makes him smile is thoughts of Shallan. Come on, this dude is so obviously lovesick. It's all tucked into these pages! At the very least, I'm confident saying that Kaladin has not yet dismissed Shallan as not being right for him. Maybe he'll come to that point in a future book, but he is certainly not there yet. There is no textual evidence to support that. To state that Kaladin has done something which we know he hasn't is a little disingenuous at this point.

If he does end up with someone, whoever it is will certainly not be named "Shallan". ... ... ...don't hurt me Shadolin shippers...

Ha, yeah. The person who asked that question at the Phoenix signing was me, and he called it a "big" R.A.F.O. as he tossed me my card. I was rereading WoK this weekend and came across the Syl quote that is the discussion of this thread, and started wondering. Glad I was able to find an existing thread for this very topic. My first thoughts on the possibility of KR having lengthened lifespans due to the bond came after I had read about the splitting of the 10 books into two parts, the later half possibly occurring many many years after the first (well outside the normal lifespan of a human even). That combined with the fact that several current viewpoint characters were going to be present in those later books, I just made a natural conclusion that I felt Brandon would feel safe to answer. I was wrong, but also his R.A.F.O. seemed like an answer in of itself. I also voted that she was bonded pre-recreance. As to the KR aging, I think there are two possibilities to this: they either age very slowly, or they don't age at all. I base this off of how the Stormlight regeneration seems to work, which would naturally counter the biological degeneration of cells over time that we call "aging". Lots of magic systems in the cosmere seem to include an eternal youth factor, and I don't see the Nahel bond and Stormlight healing as likely to be much different. I personally find it more likely that if bonded spren had their KR die on them, it was due to death while fighting in the desolations (which were known to be brutal even for experienced KR), rather than of old age. Purely speculation and assumptions on my part though. Will be interesting to see it play out.

You. Have my upvote

Also, The scene: Come on. Have you never seen the woman you like, care about, love with someone else, and then lied to yourself about how things were better this way? I have, and I am like, 99.9994% certain that is what is going on here. Also, if his feelings for her were simply the result of the situation...then why is he still feeling them well after the danger has passed? Regardless of where Shallan and Adolin go, Kaladin certainly isn't done dealing with his feelings for her.

Hey, thanks for adding the numbers, you must have done this before 2. Yes, the first time I tried sushi. I certainly agree with your point that Shallan was very upfront about her motivations, not going to deny that. I would just restate my point is the jury is still out on whether Adolin still offers what Shallan wants. Brandon does not spend a whole lot of time after their "changed circumstances" exploring what is running through Shallan's head concerning her and Adolin. We have the scene just after she meets Mraize in Urithuru where she and Adolin share some good dialogue, and a very passionate (if painful for Adolin) kiss, but no time is spent inside her head exploring how her feelings may have changed regarding their new situation. Let's just say her actions certainly indicate there are things she still wants that Adolin is offering. I am just of the opinion that those particular things will become less important as she begins to understand herself more. Much like my ever growing palate with food, Shallan's tastes for romantic relationships will grow and mature. Will Adolin measure up to her new expectations, we shall see. Also, I could not seem to find text in the book in which Shallan was feeling particularly sad when Adolin made her laugh. I actually don't seem to recall a single scene in which she has been sad or mopey or depressed around him. Did I miss one? 3. Eh, I would say he gets the measure of most lighteyes as well. Consider that we are spoiled by our time with our main POV lighteyed characters, who certainly don't meet with Kaladin's expectations. Again, his interactions with these certain characters all contribute in part to his character arc for the book: acknowledging his own prejudices, and how they should not impact his actions to protect. Also, I feel compelled to point out that some of our favorite lighteyed characters also indulge in their own prejudices. Let's take Adolin for example: yes, he treats his darkeyed subordinates with respect. He'll lead them effectively, show compassion for them, let some of the younger soldier boys try on his armor. But all these interactions are done with a social barrier still effectively in place. Adolin deals with them knowing that ultimately, they have their place and he has his, and as long as that is not upset in any way, it doesn't bother him. Enter Kaladin, who didn't give Adolin his due respect according to his birth, and is now stepping outside the bounds of what Adolin considers appropriate for his station. So how how does Adolin react to this? By treating Kaladin with derision and contempt for the beginning third of the book. It took Adolin getting a measure of Kaladin for his prejudices to change, just like Kaladin needed to do the same, though it took Kaladin much longer to come to that point. I'll give Kaladin a pass on this, since his last major misjudgment of a lighteyes sent him into slavery for almost a year. 4/5. Ok, I'll agree that Shallan is not completely certain of her own survival. But I'll also point out that she is playing some of her other secrets pretty close to her chest under the expectation that she may survive (her surgebinding for one). Looking at it this way, I feel it is a bit unfair to say that her whole motivation in divulging this secret was due to her possible impending death. I understand others read this whole scene differently than I, but I still choose to believe that Brandon wrote it to convey something unique about Kaladin that brought out such a dark secret from Shallan. Again, I try my exercise of plugging any other character in that scene with her and imagine the same result coming out, and I can't, though according to the "she was afraid of dying with no one knowing" argument, anyone should do. Cool, thanks for clarifying, see my response (4/5) to kaellok above. For the record, I will acknowledge that it is entirely possible that she would have divulged the same information to Adolin as she did Kaladin. I just don't know how he would have put himself in an emotionally vulnerable enough position to where she felt like she could share. Also cool, I respect your opinion. Would also add to be careful about stating with certainty what Kaladin or Shallan is looking for. At this point, we really don't know what Kaladin is looking for in a romantic relationship. Actually, scratch that, we have lots of textual evidence indicating that Shallan has many qualities and attributes he finds appealing. However, none of those involve him finding her someone who is in need of "protection". As for Shallan, I always read her desire for financial and political security as being centered around caring for her family and it's future, not necessarily for her own benefit. It also was a means for her to be secure in pursuing her scholarship. I never took it for what she actually desires, because she seems to be written as a character who does not know or is only just discovering what she wants (and not just romantically). As for the emotional support, we can't say that she is actually "looking" for it. This is more likely our understanding of her as a character and what we as readers think would be best for her at this point. Shallan's opinion on the matter may be entirely different. Okay, maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to convey. Your previous posts indicated to me you were arguing that it was only Kaladin's libido (and his lack of experience dealing with it) that made him respond to Shallan in a romantic sense, and I disagree strongly with that. If that wasn't your argument, sorry my mistake. Concerning the exposure Kaladin has to women previous to Shallan, I certainly wasn't indicating it was likely he visited whores. I was highlighting that he has seen women, and he has most likely seen attractive women, and as a young man, that certainly is going to set things off for him. I don't know about anyone else, but when I was younger, it didn't matter if they were a friend, a coworker, a stranger, or a "business associate". If I saw someone who I found attractive, sometimes that was all it took to trigger a physiological reaction. I assume it was the same for Kaladin, and thus I conclude he certainly had plenty of times dealing with hormones well before he and Shallan ended up in that alcove. Again, nothing in the text indicates to me that it is his hormones or libido that have triggered such positive thoughts towards Shallan, but instead the qualities that Shallan herself has presented. Thanks for sharing, and to be honest, this post actually had me thinking quite a bit about that scene again, so thank you so much for showing me this, as it is the reason I took so long to respond to other comments in general. Having said that, however, I have still come to the conclusion that I disagree. I do not think Kaladin is completely wrong here for what he sees. First, the text in the previous Kaladin Shallan chapters marks Kaladin as an excellent Shallan BS detector. Ok, maybe not "excellent", but he is certainly a lot better at it than a lot of other characters. Second, I honestly believe that this scene was written as an honest moment for both of them, which is why it was one of my favorites in the book. I believe that Shallan has lowered her facade for this one moment, not so much for Kaladin's benefit, but for her own. I read this scene as Shallan finally taking a moment to reach back and look at her past, something she had not really done much of to this point. I also read this as being a moment of healing (or catharsis as others have put it) for Shallan. Certainly not all of the healing that is going to get her to a mentally healthy state, but it is a start. Kind of like a first trip to a therapist: you have to start with knocking down at least one wall, and then hopefully upon successive visits, others will start to follow. I read this scene as a moment in which Kaladin's honesty, sincerity, and vulnerability about his own past triggered in Shallan a desire to dig into her own. Now, whether this leads to romantic feelings between the two is anyone's guess. But there is something here, and I believe that it will at least be explored. TL;DR - I have too much time on my hands this holiday weekend...

Ok, I don't know really where to begin...so I guess I'll start with Kaladin not catching on to the purpose of the bridgemen. Again, we as the reader have the benefit of knowing the big picture as painted for us by Brandon. Heck, while bridge 4 is practicing the side carry, we have the whole Gaz/Lamaril scene in which they discuss the purpose of bridgemen: "Bridgement aren't supposed to survive. They are bait." I don't really blame Kaladin for not picking up on it sooner because unlike us, the reader, he is not equipped with all the facts, only his perspective guides him. Again, I politely disagree about Kaladin finding it difficult to understand the motives of others. The books are full of him correctly assessing the motives of others. He was able to sense that Gaz was desperate for money without even knowing the details and offered a bribe. He began understanding why his fellow bridge members were so despondent, because he took his own experience and feelings he felt at the chasm suicide scene and was able to put together a strategy for bringing them all back from the edge. He understands Szeth's motives for doing the things he does, and throws it back in his face as complete garbage. TLDR; I don't think you can use Kaladin not realizing the purpose of the bridge crews as the sole evidence for his not being able to understand others motivations when the text is full of instances where he is most certainly capable of doing so. With regards to Kaladin being able to understand Shallan's actions in killing her father. I feel a reoccurring theme in some posts arguing similar positions as yours seem to be comparing what Adolin would do upon hearing this information versus what Kaladin would do upon hearing it. You state that Kaladin wouldn't be able to understand why Shallan or anyone would do something like that. The problem with this argument is that we know exactly how Kaladin feels about it. First, he is obviously the only person she has told outside her family, and second we are inside his head when she does it. Let's go to the text: I'm sorry, but the text just does not support your argument that Kaladin wouldn't understand Shallan or her motivations, because we have a whole page inside his head where we can claim with 100% certainty that he does. Now I know you have your hopes for Adolin and Shallan, and I respect that, and it could still go that way. But when shaping your arguments, don't let that prejudice cause you to ignore the facts as they are.. Whether Kaladin's acceptance Shallan killing her father can lead to a romantic relationship between the two is still up for debate. The fact that he has accepted her for it is not. Good points. My counterargument would be that why tell Kaladin if she is so afraid of Adolin finding out? She and Kaladin are as safe as they can be at this point, and Shallan has had this powerful confidence that she is going to survive this chasm, and even has to force a bit of that optimism into him in order to get him off the back of the chasmfiend and climbing the cliffside to the alcove. And Kaladin is the captain of Dalinar's personal guard! Wouldn't she consider the possibility that he may take it very seriously that there is someone who murdered her own father close to the family he is sworn to protect? Telling him could potentially be as risky as telling Adolin himself. How can she be sure that Kaladin won't take it to the Kholins as is his duty. We know he wouldn't but she doesn't. Also not sure what the "terrible consequences" would have been had she not shared, could you elaborate? I'll certainly agree that the measure of danger accelerated Kaladin and Shallan to the point that they could share such things, a point at which Adolin and Shallan may take a longer time to reach, but I disagree that Shallan would have shared with just anybody. I mean, put some other male character in Kaladin's place, would she still have felt comfortable enough to share? Would she still share if it had been say...Gaz she was clutching to? Renarin? Dalinar? Lopen? (ok, maybe Lopen). During this scene, she has no intention initially of sharing, but it is Kaladin himself, and his story she insisted on hearing from him that drew her own demons out into the open. Maxal, just want to point out that I think you may have misinterpreted CrystalBodies post, as you both are effectively arguing the same points and on the same side.

Never apologize for "rambly". "Rambly" is like a second language of mine. So I don't know whether I would agree that Shallan's pain over having to kill her father automatically puts her in a mindset where she doesn't want to be loved. though your point that she's more focused on seeking political and financial security could answer my constant question as to why she is still so set on pursuing the betrothal with Adolin. Regardless, you've given me some good perspective to reflect on. Also, by the end of WoR, all three of the characters have killed someone in order to protect someone close to them, be it family or close companions, so I don't see how that particular argument can be used as a factor for differentiation between Kaladin's compatability vs Adolin's compatability. Also, to your assertion that Adolin will be someone that she can tell her secrets to and be accepted, that may come to be the case, but it doesn't put him any further ahead of Kaladin in that regard. We have in the text a scene where Shallan shares this particular dark secret with a certain someone, and he immediately accepts her decision and respects her for her strength in having to have made it. Again, a wash when it comes to comparing the two. And i think that Shallan found Kaladin to be very emotionally supportive during that scene, otherwise, why would she feel comfortable enough to reveal anything to him. She had a need to reveal it to someone, and after hearing his story, sensed in him a person who could empathize with her. If that isn't providing emotional support, I don't know what is. And Kaladin not being empathetic to others? His hatred for lighteyes aside, Kaladin is one of the most empathetic characters in the books. His ability to read and connect with others is what makes him such a damnation good leader. His compassion for them and the deep seated feelings of pain and loss when he fails them is all part of a character that very much cares for people. I honestly don't see how you have concluded Kaladin to be this selfish un-empathetic person, but everyone reads things differently I suppose. I will certainly grant you that Kaladin's...moodiness...during WoR is annoying and frustrating at times. You know, I know, we all know that not all lighteyes are bad. I mean, we have the privilege of being inside the heads of all our other favorite lighteye characters. Kaladin has no such privilege, and can only base his opinions on his past experiences, which have been pretty horrific for one so young. I may have found parts of his inner monologue concerning lighteyes to be whiny at times, but I feel like I understood why he felt that way. His major story arc in WoR was about moving past his prejudices to the point where he could recognize the Third Ideal for what it was. He demonstrated growth in this area, and it looks promising that he is ready to move past it. I dunno, now I'm feeling a bit rambly, so I'll end it there. Good discussion though.

Disregarding non-Surge related factors like number and power level of squires etc, I also chose Skybreakers partly for the reasons others have already pointed out. Mainly, I feel they would certainly have an edge over Windrunners, as I find Adhesion to not be a very combat effective Surge. Kaladin himself seems to have doubts about it's usefulness to him while training with it down in the chasm. I am, however, still holding out hope that Brandon's vast capacity for imagination will show us some ways for Adhesion to live up to every standard of awesome that people seem to think Division will have.

Hmm, interesting thoughts on Kaladin and his lack of exposure to women during his soldiering days as well as his hormone levels, but I would have to disagree on a few points. 1. While women may not be abundant as fighters in a military, they certainly play a role, both as wives, scribes, sisters, and daughters. Kaladin would certainly have had his fair share of interactions with such. And let's not forget the probably biggest group of women that soldiers during wartime spend most of their time (and money) on: whores. They are a staple in war camps and campaigns, as Brandon mentions many times. And though we don't know a whole lot about her, we do know that Kaladin had already had some level of physical intimacy with Tarah. 2. Kaladin, during the course of WoK and WoR never struck me as not being in control of his hormones. In the warcamps especially, he has plenty of visual exposure to women, but doesn't seem to have any problems not letting his thoughts be derailed. With regards to Shallan, in WoR, Kaladin actually finds her completely repulsive initially, as she represents everything he has nurtured within himself to hate. I give you, some text for reference: Shallan certainly is not the first attractive woman to cross Kaladin's path, and he has already formed an opinion of her attractiveness that he carries with him down into the chasm scene. It is only after, after, she states so clearly their shared feelings on pain and crushing sorrow (and smiling despite all of it) that he even begins to see her in a different light. My point being is that Kaladin isn't attracted to Shallan in the chasm scene because he's suffering from a case of uncontrollable raging hormones, but because he has started to see qualities in her and her personality that he finds appealing and worthy of his attraction. Adolin, on the other hand, knows next to nothing about Shallan's inner self. They have shared some kisses, some lighthearted conversation, and a poop joke. Call me old fashioned, but I do not see this as indicative of a meaningful relationship where both parties have begun to understand each other. In fact, Shallan snapping at Adolin over him wanting to protect and shelter her made me realize just how little he actually knows the real her. Something that she could remedy by opening up to him, certainly, but she is holding herself back. Why? Why share with Kaladin, and not with Adolin? (this is your chance for a rebuttle ) Oh this ship is sailing, and it will certainly shape their characters significantly over the next books. I feel like Adolin has the most to gain from this ship (and it's ultimate sinking) in terms of his character development. The prince is about to be tormented like he's never been tormented before. Find that man a boom box with a Peter Gabriel 8-track so he can hold it over his head outside Shallan's window! I don't necessarily subscribe to the belief that Brandon will touch upon the parallelism between the potential current love entaglement and Dalinar, Navani, Gavilar, but if anything, I believe it wouldn't be parallel, it would be completely opposite (perpendicular maybe?). Shallan choosing not what was "safe" like Navani did, but instead following her heart. Adolin, as he currently is, is safe. Shallan can predict her feelings towards him, manage them according to her expectations. With Kaladin, she cannot, and it both scares and excites her. Hey, thanks for responding to my response. Allow me to respond again in turn Ultimately, I don't think any relationship involving Kaladin will have much of a shelf life. I am currently under the belief that Kaladin is Fleet (and not just in the sense of how he ran as far as he could to protect Elhokar, but still survived), but more in the sense that he will, ultimately, be dead by the end of the first 5 books. You bring up a great point that Shallan seems very eager to continue fighting for her relationship with Adolin. I, however, would ask why? Why fight so hard for this relationship? I certainly don't know why she does, and I doubt she does either. She certainly has demonstrated trouble knowing her own heart at times. She does find many qualities that she likes in Adolin ("He's kind, noble, and genuine"), and of course very attractive. Certainly a good start for potential lovers, but will it grow into something more, something deeper? It could, but I do not believe so. Shallan's passions have always seem to lie in her pursuit of her scholarship and knowledge, and after WoK, her quest to help stop the voidbringers from returning. Ensuring her betrothal to Adolin only seemed to me like a means to her being able to pursue those ends, a means that is no longer necessary by the end of WoR. So again, why fight so hard for it? Does she feel so committed to the idea of a betrothal to Adolin that she can't even contemplate choosing something different for herself (like being single even)? Phew lots of questions, long post, and it is late. I'll stop boring you with my ramblings for now...

Oh boy, oh boy, a multiquote post: My interpretation of Shallan was not that she was some shallow vapid girl who ultimately will make all her decisions related to love based on what financial or political security they have to offer her. Then again, to each his/her own. Pretty sure that Shallan has her own issues she needs to work through, and survival of the apocalypse is something she shares with everyone else on Roshar now. Just because Kaladin and Shallan are one way now, doesn't mean that they will not change (something i would expect in some of my favorite novels: character growth). While I agree that Shallan should definitely end up with someone that makes her happy, her own definition or realization of what makes her happy is likely going to change, and you have seen the beginnings of this in WoR as she gets more in touch with her inner feelings. I would argue that what she needs in conjunction with happiness (a very broad term) is someone who can challenge her in a constructive way. She doesn't strike me as someone who would accept anything less. Also, Adolin could just as easily change into someone that Shallan does not like in a romantic sense. Again, I like my characters dynamic. I don't think we will see a love triangle. I think Shallan will realize quite quickly that Adolin is not right for her, and will end things before she ever contemplates Kaladin. There could even be another person in between them. Also, her and Adolin (prince charming and princess...assassin?) getting together long term seems like a trope to me more so than the Kaladin ship. But hey, opinions... To your last point, sometimes it is our relationships with people that help us identify what exactly it is we want or even who we are. Why shouldn't Shallan be able to decide or learn what exactly it is she likes and change her opinion to match? It is certainly her right to decide that what Adolin has to "offer" no longer meets with what she wants, and does it matter then that it is a comparison with an alternative to Adolin that helps her to make that decision? Hmm...Shallan needing someone ultimately to take care of her. It is my opinion that her character arc is currently going in the opposite direction. She, as a girl who has spent her entire life being sheltered and protected and "cared for" is just now starting to discover just how independent she can be. That's not to say that she won't need to rely on others at all, quite the contrary. I agree with you that Shallan needs someone who can be her emotional support, since she has spent so much time emotionally supporting others, and Kaladin certainly doesn't fit that mold as he is currently. That doesn't mean that his character growth can't take him in that direction example: Kaladin is so used to drawing emotional support from others, that it would be a nice character challenge for him to finally have to provide that to someone else. As for Adolin and Shallan, I see their romance as very fitting for who they are right now. The only problem is is that one (or both) are still growing as individuals, and the "works right now" has a way of changing if the two people don't grow together. Shallan especially is much younger and still in the process of discovering herself. She will either grow towards Adolin, or away from him, and in my opinion, the text evidence indicates the latter. I feel that poor Adolin is doomed simply from the fact that he was with her first, which is a bummer, cause I really like him and want to see him end up with a woman who can meet his needs and makes him happy as well.

On whether she is dead, let's go to the text which probably sheds the most light we get on the subject: So hearkening back to my Sesame Street days, one of these groups is not like the other. All of the examples Kaladin thinks of in relation to his failures have one thing in common: they died (granted, I'm making the assumption that the slaves died too, since we don't have text confirmation). After mentioning those, he refers to Tarah, and how his failure was different from the others, but still a failure in his eyes. This makes me feel with a high level of confidence that Tarah is not dead. Whether she is important to any further plot development is another matter entirely... Correction: there are plenty of people in Brandon's worlds having extramarital sex, they just aren't his viewpoint or main characters. His world building certainly recognizes that his human populations are, well, human, and that sexuality is a big part of our nature. So as a result he makes sure to reference it in subtle ways like with soldiers and their whores etc. But like you said, he chooses to keep that out of his main characters, and you could be right in that Brandon continues to follow that pattern owing to his own personal and religious beliefs. However, I'd like to think that over the years I've seen him grow as a writer, and he seems more open to exploring characters with alternative viewpoints to his own (Jasnah and her atheism/or agnosticism would be a good example). In fact, he would probably even suggest that a writer must continue to grow by challenging himself/herself with things that may make an author personally uncomfortable. Writing a character to perform an action (like extramarital sex) doesn't mean he has to personally condone or advocate for it. If it fits with the narrative and is part of the development of the plot and character in a way that makes the story intriguing, I'd like to think he'd do it without hesitation.

I agree. Tarah is most likely a camp follower of lower rank. From a literary standpoint, I would bet that she will be a pitiable character, depending on the details of how Kaladin left her. Kaladin right now is very likable for most readers, and it would be interesting if Brandon chooses to use this woman as a mechanism for shaking up our opinion of him a bit.

Thanks for the sharing and the different perspective. Also, did not know there was a WoB on the subject, that is very interesting Thank you for the links.

THIS! Also, I must have missed the post or thread where Renarin's autism is discussed. Can someone point me in that direction I'd be interested to read. Having a wife who works with autistic children and having many discussions with her on the subject, based on what I have learned from her, Renarin would barely even be on the spectrum, if at all. I can't identify any autistic tendencies in his character that I would classify as impactful to his day to day functioning, and he doesn't strike me as having difficulties empathizing and emotionally connecting to people, especially his family. To me, the biggest impact to his day to day are his episdoes/fits/seizures that at this point we know very little details about. But hey, I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert, and I fully expect some fellow fans to post details that I may have missed concerning Renarin. Side note, if anyone is interested in a good documentary on the topic and has Netflix, you should check out "A Mother's Courage: Talking Back to Autism". It is pretty fantastic and highly educational. Inspirational even.

That may be your interpretation of leinton's comment, but it wasn't mine, and the comment really bugged me. Here is how I, and perhaps some others took the comment. Again, I would like to stipulate that I can't recall a single post from this thread where someone has flat out said that there is no possibility of bisexual or homosexual characters in the book. Instead, what I see is people getting upset when someone states their belief that Kaladin himself is straight. That is their opinion, and they have every right to express that opinion. Reading leinton's comment above, I took that as saying "When you say Kaladin isn't gay...you also are ignoring those of us who are neither straight or gay." That is the text of leinton's comment, and it unfairly lumps me and others like me who share our opinion as being insensitive to those who have a different sexual preference than our own. Which is so grossly and blatantly untrue that it can be upsetting. It is not right, and contradictory to the ideals of freedom of speech and expression for a person to shame another into silencing their voice or opinion. If that is not what leinton meant, then perhaps there was a better way that he or she (my apologies in advance leinton, as I do not know which gender you identify with) could have expressed themselves. More on the outcomes of sexual preference as evidenced in the text: By these arguments, we could make the stipulation that every character in the book who hasn't had text specifically stating they are not interested in the same sex has the potential to be bisexual. Dalniar, Kaladin, Adolin, Renarin, Elokhar, Shallan, Jasnah, Lift, Gaz, Rock, Teft, Sigzil, and pretty much anyone in the entire series. You are essentially saying that Brandon must provide explicit text for every character that he wants convey as being completely 100% straight. This seems like a very onerous way to conduct theorizing and argumentative reasoning. Regardless of what you believe about heteronormativity in the real world, in the cosmere universe Sanderson has created, heterosexual seems to be the baseline, and any deviation from this he has explicitly addressed with text. It doesn't seem an unreasonable stretch to me that he would follow a similar pattern for SA. That being said, I can get behind the idea that every character in the series is potentially bi, if that is the standard those putting forth the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" argument would like to adhere to. Feather, I just wanted to tip my hat to you for being such an excellent moderator in a thread that seems so very charged with emotion and opinion. Now for my on topic opinion: I voted for "Other" and would further qualify that as "end up with no one". Despite my posts in the Shallan's Relationship thread that she and Kaladin seem to be building up to a romantic entanglement (again from my interpretation of the written evidence), I truly feel that Kaladin will be dead after the fifth book. If he continues to be built up by Sanderson into this messianic leader figure, he will likely not have any other ending. But then again, maybe that's just me being brutalized as a 10+ year GRRM reader

While I agree that xianpoxi's wording could have been chosen more carefully, I believe I understand the point that was trying to be made. Wanting to investigate and debate a character's sexuality based on textual evidence available within the books is not the same as failing to empathize with someone's sexual preferences. Let me see if I can convey the idea differently based on the posts in question First, leinton makes a request for people to stop ignoring the possibility of bisexuality in characters. As someone who has read through all the posts in this thread, I can't say that I recall anyone here saying that bisexual characters within the book series are impossible or even improbable. Everyone seems to be on the same page that a bisexual character is very likely, and they may in fact already exist. The contention appears to be centered around one specific character, whom leinton specifically names in the quoted post. I just want to point out that those who are making that claim that Kaladin is heterosexual are doing so based on evidence found within the text of the two published books. When examining evidence to support one's argument, one's sexual orientation should not be a factor. Evidence, or lack thereof, is evidence regardless of personal tastes or preferences. A person's sexual preferences are not being disregarded in this case, and should not be taken as such. It is simply, irrelevant. That is the idea I believe xianpoxi was trying to get across. So I will conclude this with a request of my own: Please, do not take statements like "I believe Kaladin's character is straight" as a personal affront to your sexuality, because it is not. It is simply an argument put forth based on the available textual evidence present. It is an argument that I also happen to share, and have a high confidence level in. However, if that evidence changes, well then we'll just have to adapt xianpoxi's post for reference:

It is more likely that Shallan has placed Pattern on loan to someone to turn the gate mechanism. (much like she loaned him to Kaladin during the chasm scene). She doesn't seem particularly squeamish about letting others use him. As for the infused spheres, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since i read that part, but shouldn't they be able to be swapped in and out of the machine with other spheres by just anyone? It was my understanding upon first read that the machine ran on spheres that could be swapped out by any Tom, Dick, or Harry. I can see needing a Radiant Shardblade to "turn the key in the lock" so to speak, but to require a Radiant to perform the maintenance of keeping the thing infused seems like a waste of a Radiants time and very impractical. Again, maybe i misread...

Kind of agree and disagree with you here. The fact that it seemed very "unbridgeman-like" of a gift, and the difficulty Kaladin would face trying to hang on with it made me think that it at least had some role to play in Kaladin's future. Also, I doubt that in Alethi culture where music is considered a feminine art, a bunch of male bridgemen would ascribe value to the flute enough to motivate them to steal it. I thought that Hoid giving Kaladin the flute was Hoid's way of saying to him that despite the daily pain and torture of bridgerunning he faces each day, Kaladin must still always strive to find something that keeps life worth living, lest he fall back into that place that took him to almost stepping off a chasm ledge. I imagined Hoid was saying "Here, learn to play this flute, it will be good for your soul." And I feel that Hoid recognizes some need to help keep Kaladin's mental state healthy. At first I read meaning into the flute being given to Kaladin by Hoid. But after my question to Brandon, and his very nonchalant answer concerning it, I have to say that I agree more with your line of thinking here. If there was no purpose to it, then it made no sense for it to have remained in the novel imo. Now it only serves as a way to make Hoid mildly irritated with Kaladin, and not a very good one at that. Also at the signing, someone asked about the origin of Hoid's character, and Brandon responded that he was kind of the result of a mental exercise he used to do while reading fantasy books. He would imagine this character injected into these stories to interact with the main characters and pretty much do some wacky things to amuse himself. So in the end, Brandon probably didn't give this flute interaction much thought at all, as it was just another eccentric thing that Hoid just...does.

Ah, someone from the Scottsdale signing beat me to posting my own QA on this thread, but glad that someone is getting these in quickly regardless. I was the one who asked about first the Nahel bond and its effect on human lifespan, knowing full well he was likely to R.A.F.O it. In fact, got my very own R.A.F.O. card along with my shard hunt card. While he was prepping to throw the cards back my way, I asked the question whether or not Kaladin would learn to play Wit's flute, or had Wit recovered it for good. I had thought while reading WoK that the flute would have been a fun way to develop a little more of Kaladin's character, or at least turn him into a budding musician further breaking typical Alethi gender stereotypes. Guess that ship has sailed however. NOTE: The wooing of a certain red-headed lighteyed lady with some smooth jazz flute was a joke I cracked before finally sitting down

ssd6 & Seloun, Thanks for elaborating on the possibilties of Kaladin and Jasnah ship for me. I certainly can see more of the possible attractions that could occur between the characters as a result of their personalities. Almost so that I may be persuaded to "jump ship" if mine were to run afoul of an unexpected plot twist. Though ssd6: I thought it was canon that Kaladin could only read/write glyphs, which is not so uncommon a trait among Alethi men (especially of lighteyed rank)? And blys, I appreciate your responses, you certainly give me more to think about with regards to other's perception of how Brandon has handled the feelings of these three individuals. I did want to inquire further to your comments below though... You go into a lot of detail comparing Kaladin and Shallan's different backgrounds and their level of "brokenness", and then stipulate that they would not fall for each other further than a crush/romantic excursion. You also acknowledge that Shallan is outwardly friendly and proper, but is hiding her true self. I do want to poitn out that the book clearly establishes that Kaladin sees through this easily (or at least when compared to Adolin), and in fact he is the only person other than Jasnah that she has confided much truth to. So if this to you constitutes only a surface level crush, could you expand on why you think Adolin's background and the interactions we've seen between him and Shallan indicate that they have a better chance of going deeper than what you feel Kaladin and Shallan could achieve? Just curious as to what your thoughts are... Don't get me wrong. I like Adolin as a character. He is entertaining and intriguing to read. He is, however, in his current state not a good match for Shallan. I am basing this off of my belief that his interests: dueling, warfare, fashion etc don't seem to be things that would be intriguing to Shallan outside of what typical Alethi society would consider ideal in a married couple. Those certainly aren't the defining characteristics of his character, but I would think a good relationship would be founded on shared interests and in Shallan's case: intellect and wit. It is on that level that I think Kaladin currently fits her better, though I would never rule out the possibility of someone else entering the mix and making this whole argument moot. Also, I feel that Adolin has a lot of potential for growth, and as has been mentioned before, the pain of heartbreak can take a character down a lot of paths (good or bad). I would much rather read that kind of story than one in which Shallan and Adolin stay in a relationship that does nothing to challenge them or force them to grow. Last thought, then bedtime: The fact that every character in WoR who interact with Adolin and Shallan is telling themselves that they "fit" this early in the story is a big red flag to me that they will not ultimately end up together. So I feel comfortable in saying Adolin and Shallan definitely not ending up together by end of series. Kaladin and Shallan...only maybe.

I would agree that I don't think I would precisely call Shallan's interactions with Adolin "faking it". As others here have pointed out, she is just doing what most young people in her position would do when beginning to court or get to know someone they are interested. YOu don't reveal everything to the other person right away, and there certainly is a measure of playing the person you think they want. This dynamic, however, will disappear once the relationship reaches a certain point, and I just don't see Adolin and Shallan's personalities meshing once the relationship is ready to go deeper. I do, however, disagree completely with your statement that "There is an attraction to Kal but nothing more". Shallan has an attraction for both men, but when comparing the two attractions, the one that she has started to feel for Kaladan goes deeper. Feeling lazy and eating chinese take out right now, so I won't go digging for quotes, but the majority of Shallan's descriptions of her attraction to Adolin are centered around the superficial physical appearance. In fact, the one time that I've been able to find after many rereads where Shallan describes her likes for Adolin outside his handsomeness is only there to precede her own comparison of him to Kaladin: Yes, some very flattering things she says about Adolin. However, there are plenty of kind, noble, and genuine men on Roshar, and I don't think Shallan can be satisfied by just these qualities alone. She also expends more effort putting her feelings for Kaladin into words, and as a result, the next paragraph describing her feels for Kaladin completely dwarfs what she said about Adolin. She even tried to stop herself from even trying to define her feelings for Kaladin, but ultimately something in her wouldn't let her shut that down, so she does it anyway. This whole section read to me like: "Kaladin would have said something clever back at me. Well, that's ok, because Adolin is really...kind, and noble, and geniune. That's all that should matter right? He doesn't have to challenge me or my intellect in any way, right? But...but Kaladin..." What Shallan is starting to feel or see in Kaladin, from my perspective at least, is the seed of a kind of relationship that will be deeper and more meaningful to her than the one she currently has with Adolin. However Shallan, as we all know by now, can have a difficult time being honest with herself or her feelings, so expect to see her try her best to push whatever that thought she had about Kaladin down into the deepest recesses of her heart...for now. Sanderson is masterful in his subtle crafting of the potential relationship between Kaladin and Shallan. It is a very good literary technique he is using. He gives you hints and teases of these two personalities meshing so well, but doesn't let his writing or you as the reader dwell on it. He drops you clues in the words he uses to hint at what might be coming for these characters. Ever notice how many of the times Shallan and Adolin share a kiss the word "force" or "forced" is embedded within that paragraph. He does all these things, and then proceeds to hide it all by dropping this facade of the perfect budding romance between two lighteyed nobles in front. This shrouds the issue in fog, and is there to keep us from knowing where he is going for certain, hence this lovely poll we have going. I say all this because I retain doubts that Sanderson would spend this much time and effort on such writing, only to stick with Shallan's obvious first choice for the remainder of the series. I could be completely wrong, and Sanderson may go completely in a different direction, but I don't think he will. Also agree with you that Kal is not the type to take her away from Adolin. If it happens, it will be because of Shallan's own choice. I don't think Syl, despite her revulsion for Cryptics, would try to keep Kaladin away from something that could make him happy and value living his life. And to wrap things up, just to satisfy my curiosity, can someone provide a nice response as to why they think Kal and Jasnah would make for a good match? I see this argument made many times, but for the life of me, I just cannot see this. What are others seeing that I am not?