DeployParachute

Honestly, I think that Tarah was introduced purely to provide an insight for us readers into Kaladin's past interactions with romance, and how he explicitly chose the path of soldiering over it. The flashbacks to Tarah, imo, are there to provide a fleshing out of that aspect of Kaladin's character, nothing more. Personally, I think that Kaladin should throw caution to the wind, and take the "Bender B. Rodriguez" approach and start a nightclub in Urithuru, complete with blackjack and hookers. Here here. I'll take this as a call to bring back the AKS thread. That way, at least they can keep us contained somewhere and pretend we don't exist. "Sailing before landing"

Ah, but let is not forget that Adolin is perfectly capable of snapping, and in the most violent of ways. He brutally murdered a highprince, and not only that, but... He took pleasure in doing so. This wasn't just some dispassionate execution that needed to be done. Something distasteful that someone had to do. He may tell others it needed to be done, and he took it upon himself to do it. But it was heat of the moment, and he enjoyed it. I don't think he's going to be telling his father that little secret any time soon. This is the only crack that I can find in the impenetrable White Knight armour that Adolin wears, and if Brandon didn't take advantage of it, I think it would be a waste.

So are truths, or at least nahel bond worthy truths, only truthful memories, or truthful conclusions about one's own nature, or both?

Ah...well. I have nothing then. Perhaps a good follow up question to the one about how Adolin is able to tell which persona is active is: is the Shallan persona that Adolin knows still a mask that she wears specifically for him, as she indicated to herself in the scene where she had just exited the storm shelter in Kholinar... Though all these WoB trickling in are making it increasingly difficult to not accept that, despite all the text to the contrary, most of what we saw about this resolution in OB should be taken at face value. Shallan is on the road to recovery, and with just a little bit of helpful love and support from her man, she's gonna get there. Geez, I seem to be just putting my stages of grief on repeat. Happens Everytime I open up OB again to read. I'll have "accepted" that there really isn't anything more complex to this plot, it really is just as simple as it was. Then I'll hit a nugget of writing and foreshadowing and get reset right back to theorizing. Gotta stop doing this to myself. Very sound logic, and textual evidence to support some of it. I don't have much of a rebuttal except to say that I'm starting to think that while the whole speak truths to advance for lightweavers is an interesting and cool idea, it makes no sense in the context about how people actually grow and work in real life. People are constantly discovering new truths about themselves, and old truths are changing. How can the scope of truths be boiled down to a select few that determines advancements in control of radiant power. I guess "only past truths count" is as good a mechanism as any, but it seems to me to be rather flat, and opposed to how people are always changing. Finding specific oaths for power ups is more accommodating with how we as humans change over the course of our lives. Finding truths...not so much.

Uhhh..I was not aware of this particular WoB. Anyone got a quick link to it?

Well, I mean, they did lock the thread that (mostly) kept it contained More on the topic of this thread, when I try and evaluate to myself what exactly was Wit's advice, how did Shallan interpret it, and what was the end result by the time of OB conclusion, I try to focus on it through the lens of possible plotting and conflicts and resolutions for future books. Shallan has more truths to speak to progress. And I don't believe that these truths are supposed to be minor. These are truths (imo) that Shallan is either completely unaware of, or actively suppressing to the point where she might as well be unaware of them. So thinking about what truths that she could speak that would have as big of an emotional and narrative impact enough to progress to the highest levels of radiant, ones that are of the equivalent to "I killed my own mother", "I killed my own father" or even more. I can't help but think that this is not something Adolin is going to be able to help her with. Perhaps her final truth could end up being something like "I am Shallan, and Veil, and Radiant", but in order for that truth to really have impact, I think that her state at end of OB had to be as far from this recognition in Shallan as possible. So my thoughts are that she is very far from this truth, as evidenced in part by her line where she stuffs them down and declares vehemently that "she was occasionally them, but they were NOT her". The fact that her personalities are still present, however, means that this issue will be at the forefront going into the next book, and like I mentioned above, I think Shallans next truth needs to be something that even we as readers may have terrible pinning down or accepting. Because of this, I do not really believe, truly, that her next truth is going to be related to her split personalities directly, but instead that the healing of her personalities is going to allow her to see the reality of her next truth. To me, this would be a very interesting narrative choice to go down, as it ties in very nicely with Tyn's warning in WoR about how getting lost in a lie, believing the lie, would end up destroying her. Not only that, but now that a marriage is involved, she's not just possibly destroying herself, but Adolin and the rest of her new family. With such a plot, we could see some interesting challenges and growth for a number of characters 1. Upon learning this truth, how does Shallan deal with it? Does she address it immediately? Or Does it break her all over again? Perhaps it can even open her up to Odiums influence (further). We're still missing a champion btw, now that Dalinar had declined 2. Adolin will be crushed. He will be broken, he will grieve, he will mourn, he will do something other than play the second fiddle to everyone else's narrative. He might even have a greater chance at reviving that blade (I'm sorry, but if Adolin revives Maya without any kind of major struggle emotionally, then...color me done for finding anything interesting about the character). If murdering Sadeas didn't cause him any emotional it narrative turmoil, then perhaps having a broken heart will. I would find it a very compelling narrative that instead of the expected: -Adolin helps Shallan heal, and then it's happy endings all around We got -Adolin helps the woman he loves heal, only for her to realize that after all the initial glamour of their super fast betrothal and marriage, she does not in fact love him the way he loves her So, looking at future narrative possibilities, I put myself in the camp that Shallan did NOT understand Wit's advice, and is not necessarily on the road to recovery, because that allows her to be set up for a more significant truth in future books that can have a rippling impact across the rest of the series.

Well, this at least is very honest, and I can respect that. Perhaps that is also part of his appeal, his lack of flaws just makes people feel good while reading, and that's not something to sneer at. His value to the narrative is not found in what he does to the plot, or what kind of arc his character travels upon, but is simply to make the unfolding of the story more enjoyable to readers by being...well, who he is. I can still find it a bit irksome that everything works out for him, but at the same time recognize that the story would be lessened with his absence from it.

But that's the thing, even a "typical pretty boy" in the literary or media sense has something wrong: They're a jerk, or they are not intelligent, or they are secretly the villain. Whatever the case may be, usually the perceived "perfection" by us as the media consumer is revealed to be masking some other issues. And yet, here is Adolin, who is obviously more than a typical pretty boy, and that is my exact problem with him. ^this Sorry, not trying to dump all over Adolin as a "person" in the comere, but I am dumping on the character of him from a literary sense. If I was living in the world of Roshar, of course I would like him as a person, who wouldn't (and in fact everyone does). But from a reader perspective, a literary sense, perhaps you @mariapapadia can clarify for me why you find him to be a great character to read?

Yeah, the only explanation I can think of is that Adolin's perfection as an individual is the reason why so many have a preference for him. He is the idealized version of what an attractive male partner should be. He is devastatingly handsome, compassionate, friendly, funny, charming, empathetic, understanding, and honorable. He is also an excellent fighter, can stand up for others, is a protector, a provider, sound military tactician, and heir to a kingdom to boot. What's not to like? Every man wants to be him, and every woman wants to be with him. Readers are no exception to this appeal, and they can do so without any pesky character flaws to get in the way. I really thought I was going to get more interesting development with him, more flaws to this character that would make him more interesting and less a personification of the perfect individual. He had two this book, that I pretty much boiled down to 1. Everyone else is getting super powers and I'm not, how am I going to deal with this? 2. I just murdered someone in cold blood, and I don't feel bad about it. How am I going to tell anyone? Neither of these I felt was resolved in a satisfying way. His resolution for these potential issues and avenues for growth were essentially boiled down to "don't worry about it, it all worked out, guy, no consequences, you get to keep being awesome, and everyone still loves you." I just don't find that appealing, or relatable. But to each their own.

Someone should ask them if there was originally a scene where Kaladin and Shallan are flying to Thaylen City, and if it was removed due to reasons... ...I just don't understand why the second person to go had to be Shallan? I thought for sure we would get that scene with Shallan working so hard to "escape" Urithuru for a few days. If it wasn't Brandon's intention for them to have an opportunity to interact alone, then why did she go at all? To me, it makes no sense unless he had originally outlined it there...

OH MY GOD! thank you so much for this link. It is making me feel immeasurably better about the "resolution" of A-S-K in OB. Listening to him describe the archetype that I was getting a feeling for back during WoR, but not quite understanding what it was or why I was liking it and seeing it play out was very therapeutic. It makes me feel like no I'm not crazy for thinking that the initial tension between Shallan and Kaladin was something to applaud and get excited about as the beginning to something great.

Aaaand we've come full circle, complete with @SLNC 's avatar. This thread is awesome!

Oh geez, just realized what I did. LSD has now been corrected to LDS (Latter Day Saints) in my post. D'oh...

Hi, welcome to the boards, and thanks for sharing. That was pretty risky, reading a forum post like this before finishing the book. Glad it worked out for you. That being said: To each their own, I guess, but the line "Adolin getting his girl" bothers me on so many levels, most notably the fact that it reduces Adolin's role in this series as one of revolving around his relationship with Shallan. All other aspects of his plot arc and character development that seemed so promising going into this book (Sadeas, his relationship with his father, etc) were severely diminished or ignored this book. I can't see how Adolin is going to have any meaningful or interesting growth moving forward now that it seems that he is at his "end game" of "getting his girl". It is frustrating for me as a reader who had grown more attached to the potential for this character. Did they though? For Kaladin's viewpoint, why did Sanderson leave the wording as such? Why the "?" punctuation? Does Kaladin really still know what his feelings are? Perhaps, perhaps not. Sounds like you are one of the majority of people who take what Shallan thinks here at face value: that Veil and Radiant are not "parts" of Shallan that she split off so that her main doesn't have to deal with them, but instead just some made up characters she occasionally loses herself in. A normal interpretation to take, I guess. But at the same time, does she really believe this? If these are just characters that she has to "dominate", then why do they even still appear to her at all? If they aren't part of her psyche, then how/why do they appear to her as distinct entities when she is getting ready for her wedding? What of Wit's advise that they ARE all her, and she them? If BS really truly said this in a class, then I am gravely, truly disappointed in his lack of confidence or desire to tackle this plot in a way that challenges Twilight. To think that he only wrote the Chasm scene, and all the other foreshadowing items in WoR just as a means to keep me thinking that there might be a chance, while deep down truly knowing that it was always going to be Adolin does not put his romance writing in a very good place for me. If it was always going to be Adolin, then come up with a different, non competing romantic narrative to challenge Shallan and Adolin to overcome before getting together. It's garbage, especially given how most fans are so opposed to triangles in the first place, why do it that way at all? First off, i would say that the "growth" that occurred in these characters could all have been done without the triangle subplot. Also, I don't know just how much Kaladin himself grew from this. Shallan's growth is debatable, and really boils down to whether you think her end state was net positive from start to finish of OB, or net negative. Above you describe Shallan as needing to overcome Radiant and Veil, but here describe them as personalities to overcome? Is that what we are to take from this? that things that make up our personalities are things to be subjugated and overcame? Are Veil and Radiant reflections of her personality traits or not? And if they are, then how is Shallan in a "grown" state at the end of OB if they still remain separate and distinct entities from her? Also, Shallan herself SAYS that the face she has worn for Adolin is also a mask. How do you resolve that into being a positive thing for Adolin? I mean, his LDS beliefs did not stop him from gradually exploring and/or adding topics that inherently go against canonical LDS beliefs: for example two men being in a meaningful and healthy relationship. I think (or thought) that using his religion as a reason for why he would NEVER tackle certain issues in his books was unfair to the author, and severely limiting for his growth as a writer. I doubt that there is no conceivable scenario in which Brandon would agree that a divorce is probably the best outcome for all parties. To think otherwise seems to paint BS as some kind of fanatic, which he is not.

Yet another thing that Shallan has told Kaladin, but not Adolin (that we know of). I mean, she could still do it off screen during the time gap, but for the moment, why tell Kaladin and not Adolin. In fact, why does Kaladin know more about Shallan's darker secrets and past than Adolin at the time of the wedding? She and Adolin have obviously spent way more time together in the books? Yes, Shallan has "plans" to tell Adolin (ha ha ha, my Mac auto corrected "Adolin" to "Adonis" just now, fitting, no?) more things, like the Ghostbloods etc. But will she? How much is Adolin going to know about Shallan/Veil/Radiant by the start of SA4? I wonder. Maybe she will tell him everything now that they are married and everything is rainbow farts and sunshine sprinkles, but then if that ends up being the case then why did you write ANY of the Shalladin interactions the way you did, Brandon? WHYYYY? I think we need to start coming up with a new denotation system for referencing the various incarnations of the Shallan persona/alt/whatever you want to call it. I'll draw upon my engineering background, and make suggestions based on RELEASE numbers: Shallan 0 - The original of the original, what Shallan was or could of been prior to the killing of her mother Shallan 1.0 - The Shallan we see at the start of, and through TWoK. She is broken on the inside, but has pushed the memories away, and functions while supressing her childhood. Shallan 1.5 - WoR Shallan. Very similar to Shallan 1.0, but with the additional facade added and presented to Adolin. Also exclusive Veil content available for unlock by playing secret missions. Shallan 2.0 - OB Shallan. Completely reworked persona, with all those pesky bugs like pain, hurt, and truth removed. This Shallan has been optimized for consumption by Adolin, the perfect model of an Alethi woman. Additional playable Veil and Radiant modes available as DLC. Anyway, @PhineasGage, I think that your responses are amazing, but also pushing up against the limits that a traditional forum format allows. Seriously, I just kept reading, and scrolling, and reading, and scrolling the post that seemed to never end (not that I particularly object to that). If you don't put all your comments on this thread into another 30 page continuation of your Shalladin thesis, I'm going to be very disappointed.

8 hours for 2nd Stage (aka Hard or Active) Labor, with transition and then pushing. Counting First Stage, we're talking closer to 20 hrs total. If you experienced 18 hours of Hard labor, hats off to you, cause 8 certainly seemed like more than enough to my wife and I. Cheers.

And perhaps should you decide to have your own child, however many years down the road, someone on these forums can remind you that 9 mo of pregnancy and x-number of hours of hard labor to deliver said child is not an achievement in itself . I kid, I kid, couldn't resist poking some fun at you a bit, cause I'm pretty sure if I had told my wife that her 8 hours of hard labor to bring our first child into the world was not an achievement, I probably would not have been around to enjoy OB.

Don't know where you come from, but my understanding is that typically when someone used the phrase "wink wink, nudge nudge", they typically are implying that a person is being disingenuous.

Because the whole Adolin and Shallan happily ever after marriage is about as ridiculous as a sitcom...

So, either we're looking at baby by book 4, or Adolin, Shallan, or both are sterile...I just don't see a win here for the narrative.

I actually think it is a very strong possibility that we might be encountering a Shallan who is actively trying to conceive, already pregnant, or has a newborn baby already here by the time book 4 starts. I just can't see how any of these wouldn't be the case. In Alethi society, the expectations for two newlyweds to procreate will be there, and the pressure from those expectations will be enormous. Heck, Adolin himself will be expecting it and hopeful for it, and as we know after the events of OB, she is very desperate to always meet the expectations that Adolin has of her. She has to be that perfect Alethi wife, remember?

Awww snap, @maxal has joined us.

Been doing some rereading, and just going to leave this little nugget here:

It is probably good to note that Kaladin fails to realize that Tarah did not choose to leave him. It was in fact he himself who chose something over her: his men, his war. With regards to Shallan, he also made a choice, a choice to not pursue her. The fact that he is currently alone lies as much on his own decisions as it does the circumstances surrounding them. Kaladin's honor and his loyalty to Adolin may have contributed to him deciding not to explore his feelings, but he still made a choice not to do so. Additionally, Shallan may have felt pressure from the causal, and from Jasnah, Navani, and Adolin to meet the expectations of it, but again, she still made her choice. I think we could discuss for a long time whether these choices were really valid choices given the circumstances each of them faced at the time, but in the end, that's life. Circumstances are going to dictate what choices are presented to us (or what choices we perceive to be present at the time). And we are responsible for the consequences of them. Just like Shallan and Kaladin must accept the results of their choices, and move forward. That is what I hope comes out of this for them in the future. "We could have done things different, we could have resolved some of our feelings earlier. But we didn't, and it has led us to some interesting, perhaps dark places. but we accept that, we own that, and maybe we can move forward with that knowledge and acceptance"

I'd say people will see what they want to see. Those shippers who like Adolin and Shallan together probably are not going to pick up on any subtle clues or hints that tease something romantic for Kaladin and Shallan. I think that's just human nature. For me, personally, I did not even consider Kaladin and Shallan a possibility, as in the thought of the two main leads getting together, until after: a ) The boot scene in WoR b )The fight between them just outside of the king's audience chambers when Shallan first arrived It was at those moments that I thought "hmm...that was an interesting way for Brandon to decide to write the 2 first crucial encounters between these two major characters". And by that point, I was hooked. Once I was open to the idea, then I couldn't NOT see all the clues, hints, and gems sprinkled throughout the text that suggested Shalladin was going to be a thing. I also believe that Brandon is not the kind of writer who is going to go the obvious love choice route that is presented with the arranged causal betrothal. He was holding something up in his hand saying "Here, look here, look at this, this is the thing to look at", all the while using his other hand to create the subtle truth. I guess I think to myself that once I knew to LOOK AWAY from the obvious and in your face pairing (Shadolin), it was easier for me to observe what the other hand is doing. And I believe that other hand is doing something because I believe in the writing skills of the author. Granted, I could still be very very VERY wrong (trying to be fair here, Shadolin shippers), but for 4 years, I didn't think so, and I felt i had textual evidence to back it up. There are just so many individual things that Brandon has added to these books for Shallan and Kaladin, that I have a very hard time believing that they were there solely to provide some meaningless friction, and quick decision made over the course of a paragraph (rush into things much, Shallan?) so that she and Adolin can live "happily ever after". In other words, i don't think Brandon thought: "Shallan and Adolin are going to be together, I want them to be together, but I can't make it too easy for them, so I'll throw a little plot with Kaladin and Shallan so that the end result feels more real."