DeployParachute

so let's focus on the real "meat" of that scene: So here, we have Shallan telling Adolin all of the positive things that she likes about him, but none of the things that she has admitted to herself that she doesn't like (his mental directness, his lack of brilliance, etc), and simultaneously tells Adolin of only the things she dislikes about Kaladin, and none of the things that she likes about him. This is what I would expect of someone who is desperately trying to sway someone's opinion in a very speedy fashion. She needs him to change his mind, because he is the only thing that seems to be able to anchor the "her" that she thinks she is. She is dependent upon him, as she had just discovered only a scene before, and so she needs to convince him, it is imperative to her maintaining her emotional stasis. I'm not saying that the things she's saying about Adolin aren't real, or she doesn't mean them. I'm saying she's not giving Adolin the whole truth, so that he can make an informed decision. Heck, Shallan doesn't even recognize the whole truth, so how can she communicate it to him. Kaladin and Shallan's romantic arc has been round after round of: push it down push it down push it down, don't talk about it, don't think about it, don't be honest about anything. A series of poorly timed interactions, and misunderstandings. Suppression is not a way forward for a happy Adolin and Shallan, and there is still a lot of suppression going on on Shallan's part. Repeat conclusion from my edited post above: She basically tells Adolin: Veil has a physical attraction to Kaladin, but you need not worry about that. And there is plenty of textual evidence that Shallan's feelings for Kaladin are a bit beyond the physical. Or do we honestly agree that Kaladin equates to "a terrible taste in men" for Alethi or Veden sensibilities? She tells Adolin why she likes HIM, but unfortunately, she stops there, and doesn't address the non physical attractions she (or Veil) has for Kaladin. Its just shoved off to the side, and dismissed by her as unimportant, and she works very hard to convince Adolin of this. I feel bad for Adolin, that they couldn't have an honest conversation about those feelings Shallan has, because maybe they could have worked it out together, and been a stronger couple and then subsequent husband/wife after. Shallan hid truths about her feelings for Kaladin from Adolin about as effectively as she does from herself. And this concerns me, because Adolin deserves better than that. @FeatherWriter Sorry for the multi-edits, trying to keep number of repeat posts down... Further quoting on Shallan in full on "convince Adolin mode", in the same scene after the lines quoted above... Bold emphasis mine. She hasn't convince Veil or Radiant to fall in line. She had to force them to the back. She FORCED them down, and lied to herself that they were NOT her. Even though we have WoB that in the spiritual realm, all three would be one. So she lies to Adolin again, to convince him, to wave away his concerns. Still, Adolin continues to resist, so she switches tactics: Wouldn't it be kind of...hot? Me being all these people. you could have all these women, I could be ANYONE for you. Adolin is starting to waver, but still resists. Finally, Shallan's last move: Well, how could Adolin, being who he is, resist such a plea from his betrothed. Help me, Ado Lin Kenobi. You're my only hope. I would believe this were more sincere, if she hadn't spent the last couple of paragraphs continuing to lie to him, to entice him, to assuage his very real concerns that CANNOT be addressed in a mere handful of pages of text, and absolutely SHOULD be addressed before the two commit to each other in the most binding form possible: marriage. Does none of this interpretation carry any weight with you at all? None of how Shallan handled this concerned you?

So honest question here: does it really not bother you or others like you who were satisfied with the romance ending in OB that Shallan's feelings for Kaladin weren't addressed before deciding to go ahead with her marriage to Adolin? She basically tells Adolin: Veil has a physical attraction to Kaladin, but you need not worry about that. And there is plenty of textual evidence that Shallan's feelings for Kaladin are a bit beyond the physical. Or do we honestly agree that Kaladin equates to "a terrible taste in men" for Alethi or Veden sensibilities? She tells Adolin why she likes HIM, but unfortunately, she stops there, and doesn't address the non physical attractions she (or Veil) has for Kaladin. Its just shoved off to the side, and dismissed by her as unimportant, and she works very hard to convince Adolin of this. I feel bad for Adolin, that they couldn't have an honest conversation about those feelings Shallan has, because maybe they could have worked it out together, and been a stronger couple and then subsequent husband/wife after. Shallan hid truths about her feelings for Kaladin from Adolin about as effectively as she does from herself. And this concerns me, because Adolin deserves better than that.

Ah, I see. Well, I think this goes to show how I have a disconnect with what the term "shipping" can mean, and how it is handled by various fandoms. I guess I shouldn't really consider myself a shipper, because I have never based my Shalladin/Shadolin arguments on what I would "like" to happen, but have always tried (but perhaps not always successfully) to base my reasoning on what the writing itself seems to be indicating. It has been brought to my attention in the past that this is not always what Shippers do, or even care about, that sometimes, its just fun to imagine pairings that you know will never be. That's not really my thing, but I can appreciate that others find enjoyment in it. So...perhaps I can't touch your feelings about your one and true Ship, but maybe your impressions on the real direction of this romantic narrative can be swayed? Or not

I appreciate the more in depth beta perspective on the Adolin discussion, thanks for providing that. Since the shardcast topic on "triangle that was not a triangle", I've been mulling over some deep problems I have with some of the arguments made that are "pro take the conclusion at face value". I personally think some convincing arguments can be made on why taking the romance arc at face value can be objectively considered bad writing. Time is always a problem, but I feel more compelled every day to move up my efforts in writing a post about it... When the "how" of an arc turned out can be considered bad writing from a literary perspective, then yes, I think the writing and editing process is subject to critique on that front. Yes, there has been a fair bit of, dare I say it, despondent and whining posts in this thread bemoaning what could have been, and I have been a contributor to that. But there has also been a lot of good analysis, theorizing, and writing critique going on, that you comment seems to be so dismissive of by boiling it all down to just "griping". But please stick around, because who knows, maybe you'll be the next convert

Agreed with this. There is ample enough evidenced of Adolin's feelings being revealed during other viewpoints. I've not subscribed to the view that Adolin's love for Shallan is less than what it appears (sorry @Dreamstorm). Now the "why" he feels the way he does about Shallan seems quite shallow, and not as well explored as I would like, but I always chalked this up to the weakness of Adolin's screen time, and not because Brandon intended for us to think Adolin didn't have them. A well developed "why" the feelings are there is missing, but I think Brandon fully intended for us to believe that they are there. Another example of a "show me, don't tell me" problem present in the narrative.

Agreed with a lot of this. I felt disappointed that a lot of the supposed flaws we were being told about over the previous books regarding Adolin (of which there really aren't many to begin with) seemed to never get any screen time, they were never used to explore the character more deeply, or even make him interesting to read. If Adolin has trouble keeping women, well gee, Brandon, I sure would have liked to have seen how something like that would have impacted his budding relationship with Shallan. Isn't that one of the biggest rules of character development? Don't tell me something about a character and expect me to take your word for it. SHOW ME. Show me how this thing impacts the character in their choices, actions, conversations, interactions! I would have appreciated the Shallan and Adolin romance and ending a lot more if either of them had been made to, I don't know, work for it? Same goes for his (supposed) anger issues. If Adolin can be a hot head, then why is he so chill about seeing the one woman he wants to actually be with (again supposedly) leering at a rival, or said rival leering at her. Couldn't we see him get at least a little mad? He doesn't have to act on it and go and punch Kaladin, but geez, at least let me know he is human by actually thinking about it. I think you're right, that Adolin essentially fills whatever narrative need the author has for other characters. I just can't understand why so many people are in love with Adolin as a LITERARY CHARACTER after the end of OB. Especially after the promise and potential of him going into it was so wasted. If I knew him IRL, we'd be best buds, because who wouldn't? As a character in fiction, he is tepid, and boring to read. I'm probably a little more extreme in my view of him than you are, but well, a character who has so many connections to most of our main POVs, and even is the primary romantic partner for our female lead, then I sure as hell expect more character development and thought than what we got.

I'm confused. This is a thread specifically dedicated to talking about the triangle and its resolution or lack thereof. There are plenty of other topics for you to discuss the other offerings of the narrative, which many of us go and do. Does it really bother you that much that so many people find this topic so interesting that they want to spend 64 pages engaging with other members of the community on it? We haven't forgotten about the other facets of the story. But while I can't speak for others, for me personally this romantic plot has the potential to demonstrate some of the best writing of the narrative on Brandon's part, or some of the worst. And I enjoy trying to figure out which one it's going to be.

Yes. Absolutely, that would be a challenge. You don't want a podcast to devolve into something ugly because you had to seek out someone who you couldn't "vet" appropriately before hand. It's certainly not an easy solution to do in a timely fashion, and I get that. At least from my end, your efforts to give the Shalladin arguments a fair shake are appreciated. However regardless of good intentions, arguments made for a viewpoint you don't share will usually fall short (something I always struggled with when required in debate to take such viewpoints counter to my own beliefs). Hopefully I'll find some time in the near future to give it another listen, take notes, and come up with points I can concede and others to rebut. Otherwise, well produced podcast, thanks for getting it out there, and thanks for putting up with us over in the "thread that won't die" (you know the one )

Perhaps a better approach would have been to actually include someone who had, I don't know, a differing viewpoint and take on the triangle than those involved in the making of this cast? Upon listening, my conclusion to what I heard was that there were several people who came into this podcast with an already agreed upon conclusion, and they collectively tried to guess or anticipate what the opposing side's argument would be, and collectively worked to refute an argument none of them actively subscribed to in the first place. If you can't escape your bias when going into a discussion on a topic, the solution isn't to wave your hand and say "well there's nothing we can do about that, so bear with us". The solution is to introduce people with the opposite bias and opinion to the discussion, so that they may argue their own viewpoint. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of great content and discussion going on here. But I do find the sincerity around your attempt to be "fair and balanced" suspect when you don't have anyone speaking for the opposing viewpoint represented.

oh come on, I earned like, 20 rep for my post on the stone, you can't just give it to Phineas... Also, where can I find a link to this "shardpost" rant about how Shalladin is the worst thing ever, the one that I shouldn't subject myself to? I'm kind of a masochist...

This is unbelievably awesome. Thank you so much for putting this together.

@DimChatz Don't think you posted the right links in your summary regarding your popular theory. Or at least when I clicked then they didn't take me to them. Anyway, great job on the summary. Any chance I could get a copy of the feedback that was sent?

Just want to say that I am greatly appreciative that folks who are satisfied with the state of the romantic arc at the end of OB are coming back to engage in this topic. I gave upvotes to each of you in gratitude. If I weren't passing my evening being ill, I would take some time to give some rebuttals, and ask some questions. But alas, I will save those for later in the week.

Oh yay! I better shave my head and start drinking Earl Grey tea.

So I've been focusing a lot lately on Shallan and Adolin, but I was doing some rereading and came across some text that I want to bring up concerning Kaladin and his decision making. At the end of the book, when Kaladin is reflecting on things while also looking down upon our soon to be newlyweds, we see him performing an action during his contemplation. The full scene: So, there is a lot going on in this very small scene. But the thing I want to focus on is the decision that Kaladin is making here, and how it is very much symbolically tied to another decision he has made via the stone. The last time in Oathbringer we saw him make a decision related to his romantic feelings towards someone, guess what was present? So in the scene with Tarah, Kaladin is confronted with making a choice that he is not capable of making, because of the weight he is carrying around, symbolized by the rock that reminds him of his brother. For him, at this point, it's not even a choice, because he is incapable of setting down the burden he has chosen. I think that I'm safe in saying that most of us would agree that Tarah's last physical words to him are a good clue as to the thing that Kaladin has to accept as part of his next oath and progression for him. He even seems to know what it is, later, and is unable to commit to it. I find it interesting that Brandon chose to tie these two scenes together with this symbolism. In the scene concerning Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin is relieved that Shallan has seemingly made her choice, because it relieves him of the burden of having to make one himself. He gets to keep carrying his rock. In both scenes, Kaladin is confronted with a challenge to prioritizing his feelings for the living (in the form of women he loves), or to dwell on his past failures and the dead left in their wake. Making the decision he did with Tarah was not right for his growth and acceptance of himself, and that scene is symbolically tied to him making the "decision" about Shallan and Adolin, which is also not right for his growth and personal acceptance. I find it interesting symmetry that both Shallan and Kaladin's progression (or their abrupt halting of it) is so very neatly tied up with romantic feelings. Shallan allows Adolin to decide who she should be, and what she should do. She thinks the choice is hers, while simultaneously forcing the opinions of the other facets of her personality to the back. She gets to stay right where she is, because facing those other facets of herself scare her, she doesn't want to move forward. Similarly Kaladin refuses to make a choice, and instead finds comfort in giving up that choice to someone else, because it allows him to stay where he is. He didn't feel resignation either. Instead he felt ... agreement? He feels agreement because this is also what he wants, to not make a decision, to not have to act on this, because he's afraid of stepping forward. Contrast what he says in that chapter with what he says earlier in the book: I don't believe for a second that Kaladin could have some of the most pronounced and detailed feelings that we've seen from his POV yet here, and then turn around and wave those away as simply "I felt ...something. A lightening of my burdens". During the scene on the roof when Shadolin are making their passion for each other known, Kaladin is still trying to work out his feelings for her, and he decides, yet again, that they are less than what they are. Not only because she is already "taken". Not only because of his respect for her betrothed. But because it allows him to continue to hide, to remain static, to do what he has always done. Shallan and Kaladin are both making choices, or not making choices, that leave them in a static state, unable to progress further on their own respective paths of Radiancy. And these choices are both wrapped up in denying the feelings they have for each other. If that isn't an indication that they are not done, then I don't know what is. You know, sometimes I wonder just how people who were happy with the romantic ending at the end of OB could NOT see this stuff. Then I think, perhaps, Brandon is happy with this state of affairs, as it means he is doing something right, hiding it so well, that a large chunk of the readership are going to be primed and ready for his next big surprise for them. ...then again, it could also be I who is the dupe...

What a well written post in its entirety, and thanks for writing it. I want to focus on what you wrote above: now I don't know if writing Oathbringer will take Dalinar the full year of the time gap that is planned, but don't you think it is possible for Adolin to have a severe negative reaction to what Dalinar did to his mother at the very least? Something? #iwannabelieve

My opinion, from a literary perspective is that if we want Adolin to live, he's going to have to be brought low somehow (even if it is of his own doing). He had spent all his time on screen up high, with nothing to challenge the fact that everyone likes him, including all of us readers. If he isn't brought low, then he's going to have himself a trip to the hacked fabled Tranquiline Halls. I refuse to believe his presence is not going to be significantly meaningful to the future plot of these novels. I refuse to believe that Adolin can just be the "good good good guy" that serves as the normal, mostly prefect counterpoint to every other characters growth and storylines. Out of the secondary POV characters, he had the most screen time. He's either going to have to come to a reckoning over something significant as a result of his own decisions, character, and agency, or he's going to die. My money is on the latter, as he doesn't seem especially introspective about long term consequences of his actions, nor acknowledgement of the (albeit minute) darker side of his own nature.

But the SF explicitly used "them". My understanding is that Cusicesh is one singular very large spren? Also, I thought there were theories going around that Cusicesh was tied to Odium, considering it leaves people feeling drained? I also think it would be interesting if the third sibling was a creation of both honor and cultivation combined, sort of like a weird love child of theirs since it's canon that Honor and Cultivation were romantically entangled at some point. I would also expect the creation to have some form of sentience, which Cusicesh doesn't seem to possess? I dunno, just some rambling thoughts on my part...

So... Just rereading the part where Dalinar is talking to the SF about the third sibling... And I kind of got the "we are legion" vibe from this text. Has anyone considered that the third sibling might collectively be the Dysian Aimian yet? I think it is pretty interesting to note this conversation between Lift and Arclo

Hence why the best argument for Shalladin going forward is to articulate that there is evidence to support both ships, thus, Shallan is capable and interested in loving BOTH men, and it can be reasonably drawn from this that it is likely that she indeed WILL love both men over the course of this epic narrative.

Agreed, I would wish for her realizations to come from a more internal place, but frankly, that had not been par for the course from what we have seen for her so far. Confronting hard truths has always seemed to be forced upon her from outside actors. I'd argue that future growth is likely to follow this trend. So let's go further and talk about plotting support for an Adolin death scenario. Brandon had told us that he specifically worked at showing the reader that Shallan is capable of loving two different men for different reasons. As a Shalladin shipper, I can still recognize that the part of Shallan that loves Adolin is real, and has backing and support from the text. I also don't believe Brandon is the kind of person who believes that there is "the one" for everyone. He is more of "the one you choose" and that ties in heavily to where you are at in life, and what your goals are at that point in time. So, if you are Brandon, and you are exploring this facet of relationships and life goals changing over time using your main characters, how do you go about painting a convincing picture of a woman loving two men over the course of her life? Well, you lay out the foundation for feelings to be able to be present for both men, which he has done. Then it's a matter of exploring how one relationship ends, and the next begins. For Brandon, who has very pronounced religious views when it comes to honoring oaths and commitments for marriage, what are your options? I believe that divorce or adultery are still topics that Brandon would find he'd rather avoid for now (but I'm not saying he won't ever). So what is not taboo at this point? Death. Currently a widower being remarried is kosher, a divorcee is not.

Glad you mentioned this, because I wanted to say something similar on another thread, but it was too off topic, even for my standards. See, this was part of my problem with realizing that Adolin was going to have little to no character arc or narrative during OB. Let's break down where this character stands now after the flop that I believe the handling of his narrative has been. 1. He has no remaining internal conflicts to address or resolve, no (meaningful) flaws to explore or confront. 2. He had no external conflicts with other characters too explore or confront. The Sadeas plot had gone nowhere, he doesn't have to be king, he isn't competing for Shallan's affection anymore. So, if Adolin does not have any more personal character arcs or growth to achieve (and no, sorry, I do not see "figure out how to revive my dead shardblade" as very important to the greater narrative), what purpose is he going to serve within the future books. Glad you asked ( though I know you didn't): 1. Adolin has now been painted as the stabilizing force for Shallan's personality issues. He is someone who is heavily depended on by her moving forward. If he were absent, Shallan likely would be forced to do something about her condition sooner. 2. Clearly, Kaladin and Adolin have grown closer as companions. I'm not going to call them best buds yet, but out of all the characters in the narrative outside of bridge four, Adolin is right up there with Dalinar with regards to respect and a sense of dependability that Kaladin has. 3. Everyone in the narrative (other than clearly defined antagonist elements) likes Adolin, and don't have any serious problems with him. He is a very strong and prominent figure in what remains of Alethi society 4. He is the only Kholin to not have any measure of Radiancy Looking at all of these things from a plotting or narrative perspective, I think readers who hope for a happy ending path forward for this character should be very worried about his future. He has been seemingly set up to be a ripe tragic plot device just waiting to be picked at the right time by the author. He can be lifted right out, while providing the narrative with several interesting avenues to explore, both from a plot perspective, and a character growth/regression perspective from the rest of the mains. Either Brandon doesn't see what problems exist for this characters narrative, or his plan for Adolin doesn't necessitate the kind of growth and challenges that other viewpoint characters have to experience, because his service to the plot is more...tragic. This is part of the reason I was a little distraught over his end state at OB, because without something for him to actively do (especially with regards to himself), it certainly seems a good probability that his days are numbered.

Ah, the infamous "Dragon Ball Z" paradox. How too paint the continual progression of strength and power of your characters in perpetuum. Also, I'm curious to know just how you think Kaladin is OP? His powers have very clearly defined purposes and constraints so far that we've seen. He can do his lashings, and he might be able to control pockets of gaseous pressure soon, but it doesn't seem like we are going to have many more revealing aspects of what he can do additionally to what we have seen. His abilities seem well bounded by rules, and as readers we can pretty much guess at what the inherent limitations will be going into the future. On the other hand, I feel that both Shallan and Jasnah are super OP. We seem to be constantly discovering new ways their powers can be used and applied, and soulcasting, as powered by sufficient stormlight, has a number of seemingly infinite possibilities not just in battle, but outside of it too. Their abilities seem to be able to be applied to large groups of people, in a variety of ways (especially illumination/transformation together resulting in soulcasted illusions?). Kaladin's abilities have to be applied directly to people, through touch, and usually one thing/person at a time. I dunno, just my thoughts on the matter.

Lots of great discussion going on in this thread. It's a great read. I feel that a lot of similar conversations regarding negative reactions to certain OB writing choices are bleeding into many different threads at once. Almost like we should have a dedicated thread for this stuff. I'd suggest the name "Why I Don't Have an Overwhelming Urge to Reread Oathbringer Any Time Soon: A Retrospective"

Honorable is what is collectively agreed upon between the honor spren and Radiant in question. Honor is not necessary bound or constrained by one societies cultural mores, thus if Kaladin and Syl wanna open up a nightclub with the most honorable hookers you've ever seen, then dag gummit, they should be able to Also, this thread is moot. Kaladin's future love interest and romantic relationship is already established. It's just a matter of how long it's gonna take us to get there...o.O "Sailing before landing"