DeployParachute

Friend, if you would classify Adolin's experience thus far in the SA as "getting shafted left and right", then I suspect you aren't going to like what is coming in future books...

It's been pointed out to me that perhaps I misunderstood the initial purpose of the thread, so let me try again: Yeah, I totally get what you mean, it is super frustrating to me as a reader sometimes when characters have key information that they are sitting on that is very plot relevant and perhaps others need to know about in order to make informed decisions. Like, when Adolin killed Sadeas, and then decided to cover it up and not tell anyone. Just imagine how much damage and lives could have been saved it he had confessed early on to his crime, and not fed the rage that the Sadeas army needed for Odium to control them during the battle of Thaylen City. Super frustrating, but it seems like it worked out in the end.

We could probably solve even more problems on Roshar if we just, you know, replace Kaladin as a character entirely with someone else. Perhaps a person who gets everything right the first time, maybe someone that fate and fortune always smiles down on. Someone who just seems to have everything work out for them regardless of what bad things might be thrown their way. Someone who just doesn't seem to get down about what few failures (if any) they may make. It would require every ounce of an author's immense skill to create such a well nuanced character. Also, I'm sure you needn't worry about feeling like slapping this character at all, he'd probably be too pretty for that.

I would love to jump off the Shalladin ship before the next book. Believe me, I do not want to think any more about it, I want to be able to believe that it is done. All somebody need do is answer one question for me: "To what purpose did introducing a romantic triangle with Kaladin serve the narrative?" That is all I need. No one has been able to put forth a suggestion and argue it convincingly using the evidence provided. I am still waiting...

Come on now. I've been pretty fair in my assessments of Shallan and Adolin's feelings for one another: [OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion I for one have never argued that Shallan does not have feelings for Adolin, or vice versa. I believe their feelings for each other exist, and have always merited exploration of their relationship. That being said, what I cannot get around is the fact that Brandon has laid out plenty of evidence both in text and in WoB for Shallan and Kaladin: 1. Brandon chose to write romantic interplay between them, that was both based on physical attraction, as well as emotional attraction. 2. This romantic interplay was not "resolved" in any manner where either party had an honest reflection of their feelings. They both chose to ignore them, which means instead of being "resolved", it is now "shelved". Because the author is intentionally shelving these feelings between the two instead of either of them addressing it, then it logically follows that the author intends to pull it off the shelf to be used in the Narrative later. 3. The author is also ON RECORD as saying that it was crucial to get the backstory of both Kaladin and Shallan done up front, because they are going to spend a SIGNIFICANT amount of time interacting together in forthcoming novels. 4. The author is ON RECORD saying that the feelings that Shallan had been experiencing for Kaladin was more akin to "love", and was elevated to that of her feelings for Adolin. The author has revealed that in his mind, the two relationships have the potential to be of the similar level, but with different manifestations (i.e. what Shallan wants now, vs what she might want in the future). 5. The author is ON RECORD saying that what you are seeing with regards to Shallan, Kaladin, Adolin has been seen before. Whether you want to consider that to be comparable to Dalinar, Gavilar, and Navani, or maybe even the more controversial Dalinar, Evi, Navani. Regardless, what we see in either case is the story of a relationship and love between two that ENDS, and the starting of a relationship between one of them and the other. Because the author has plans to increase the amount of signifiant time spent between Kaladin and Shallan, AND because he chose to not have them address their romantic feelings (Chekhov's gun) at this time, then it logically follows that it will be addressed in the future (firing the gun). This is the evidence presented for us both in text, and by the author, and it has no bearing on how Shallan and Adolin feel about each other right now. However, it does present strong evidence that what Shallan and Adolin do have is likely to END. We can quibble about the details of how this might come about, but there is significant foreshadowing and presented evidence both in text and by the author that this is the direction we are heading. So my point is this, when you don't see a lot of discussion here defending the long term viability of Shallan and Adolin's marriage, it is because most of us have considered the evidence presented and decided that there IS NO long term viability for them from a narrative. So, we try to imagine how that ending might come about. I do not feel like I am taking exceedingly wild leaps in my logical processing of the evidence, or the way I am using that to project onto future narrative possibilities. And that processing of the available evidence to date is this: Shallan loves Adolin now, Shallan is highly likely to love Kaladin in the future. She can love both, and she will love both. Do I like it that the author has decided to go this way? Not necessarily. I wish some things had been different, but wishing is not meaningful. We got what we got. All that is left is to come to terms with it, both of us.

Yeah, this line uttered by Shallan during this scene is the one that more than any other prevents me from seeing her speech as 100% genuine to Adolin. I mean, come on. A true evaluation of her feelings or "not" feelings for Kaladin should have included the truth that she didn't like Kaladin just because he was pretty or as she put it "a piece of artwork" on the wall. A confession from a Shallan who had seriously considered the merits of a relationship with Kaladin would have included something like "you know, he is all these things, and a lot of them are good, others not so much. But I know that he's just not right FOR ME." Acknowledging that there are good things about Kaladin, but ultimately those things are not what Shallan considers good enough for a real long term relationship would have been a better way of convincing us and Adolin that she is done with Kaladin in that sense. But no, instead she immediately disparages Kaladin as not just being bad for her tastes, but bad for any woman's taste. Not even a recognition that other women might like Kaladin and match well with him, no, he's a bad man for any woman, Veil included. This just stinks of dishonesty, a means of trying to desperately convince Adolin and herself that Kaladin is not a concern. Unless Shadolin supporters honestly think Kaladin represents "bad taste in men" for all women. I dunno, maybe they do. But I don't, so therefore that one line seems to cast doubt on the rest of the things she says while trying to sell her feelings to Adolin. It's such a disparaging comment about someone that has mostly been good to her and Adolin, with growing empathy toward each other and their relationships. There is no reason for Brandon to have put that line in except to demonstrate the vast disconnect between what Shallan experiences, what she thinks, and what she feels...

Excellent post on the summation of the various attitudes in the thread, and the inherent problem as to why it can feel so overwhelmingly one sided with regards to the discussion. Excellent work, and upvote. Ultimately, people who were satisfied with the "end" of the romantic arc have very little reason to come here, and that is why I appreciate those that did and expressed so (though I personally may find it difficult to understand their reasoning behind interpretations). People who are happy with Shadolin, have no reason to look into why the "closing" of the Shalladin aspects were so mishandled. They have no reason to try to understand why Shalladin even existed in the first place. If your team won the game, why would you care about going back and evaluating that bad call by the ref, or evaluate whether some rule had been violated, or if there was cheating, or whatever. So I get it. And honestly, I don't really see much more new discussion to be had on the "is Shalladin over" front until some drastically new piece of information from the author is dropped, hence why you haven't seen much participation from me in active theorizing in a while. Also, I think it is better for me to just forget about OB and the SA for a while. It's really weird. nearly 3 months after release, and I still have not done a full reread of this book. I haven't done a full reread of a book within the book, or even fully reread any particular chapters. I've only pulled open certain sections to make quotes for this thread, and not much else. By this time after WoR, I must have read that thing cover to cover 4 times. Couldn't get enough. That desire just isn't there this time. Not only that, I can't even bring myself to try and go back and reread WoR, which was my favorite of the three. I had no idea I was so hung up on Shalladin like that. That has never happened to me over a book series before, and I read A LOT across multiple genres. It's so weird that I'm embarrassed to even admit it out loud, but...there it is, gotta at least be honest with myself. My wife thinks its adorable, but I think it's torturous. It's torturous that such a stupidly small plot element of this narrative has potentially turned me off of these books for a while. Anyway, like @maxal has said many times before, Brandon is not responsible for my interpretation and reactions to his writing. He doesn't owe me anything in regards to my expectations. So I'll either get it figured out by book 4, or find something else to read. Everyone keep up the good discussion tho, and posting any new information as you get it. Always a pleasure to read an untapped theory or thought.

Ah. Okay. So the reasons behind peoples choices don't really matter, only the choices themselves. And here I was doing this empathy thing all wrong, trying to understand characters motivations behind the decisions they make as a means of understanding them better, and possibly being able to guess at the kinds of choices they will likely make in a similar situation in the future. The reasons behind why people do the things they do are irrelevant, after all, the only useful thing we can take from events are actions (choices) themselves. Thanks for the enlightenment.

It almost feels like you are being deliberately obtuse in regards to this, as you fail to acknowledge the extreme social and emotional pressures on both of them to ignore each other. There are many reasons neither of them could interact with each other in a regular in meaningful fashion: 1. They had separate duties and responsibilities that occupied their time, and what little free time she had, Shallan was obligated to spend time with her betrothed, due to expectations from both society and from herself. I'll need to go back and read through the sections to confirm, but I find it interesting to note that Shallan did very little active pursuit of Adolin herself, it was always Adolin who had to come and find her. She was always happy when he did show up, but I find it strange that there is very little proactiveness on her part during OB in her pursuit of Adolin, unlike her initial pursuit of him during WoR, where she was very much on a mission. 2. If you are harboring romantic interest in someone who is not your betrothed or significant other, and you are trying to ensure you are meeting the expectations for your current situation, do you a) risk all of that by actively choosing to spend more time with the person who is potentially a threat to your budding relationship and place in Alethi society, or do you b ) pretend that person doesn't exist outside the times where your responsibilities force you to interact with them? Shallan doesn't want to betray Adolin, and she doesn't want to fail in the commitment that she made with the causal betrothal, so what else is she to do but intentionally ignore Kaladin and where these fledgling feelings she has for him could lead. Not to mention that before Kaladin even returns, she learns that he was the one who slew her brother on the battlefield. Not to mention that she was actively chastised by Jasnah for even spending some of her free thoughts thinking about Kaladin. When you feel something is potentially wrong, and other people insinuate to you it is wrong, then yeah, you're going to try to avoid that thing. This isn't rocket science, you can see this kind of human behavior in your own life. I know I've seen it in mine. 3. The same goes for Kaladin as it did in my second point about Shallan. The expectations are there, and have always been there. I like Shallan, but she is off limits, because she is Adolin's. When you like someone, and you know you CAN'T HAVE THEM, you don't seek out their company to become best friends. You avoid them until you can either confront your emotions about them, or get over them entirely. Unless of course you want to actively seek to disrupt an existing relationship to insert yourself. But again, neither of these characters are that kind of person. It's one giant game of circling the elephant in the room, looking at the walls, and going about your tasks while pretending its not there. It's avoidance, and it's a perfectly natural response for human beings in this kind of situation.

agreed. The characters at minimum have to have some measure of growth, or downward signaling trajectory of their personal arcs as a result. Otherwise, I agree, the death would be meaningless. Upvote for you

And the thought of Kaladin and Shallan ending up together at the cost of ADOLIN'S LIFE drives me bonkers. I think this kind of hits what is so fundamentally wrong with this subplot. Brandon has potentially written himself into a situation where none of his readers are going to be happy with the outcome. Let's break it down: 1. The way Brandon wrote the resolution of Shadolin, and the lack of resolution for Shalladin, strongly suggests that Shalladin is not resolved, and their time has not yet come. 2. If we accept that the writing in WoR and OB suggests the above, then we are faced with a dilemma as readers: Shadolin must end. The only way to do this is if one or the other or both Shallan and Adolin decide to end their union, or Adolin must die. Part of the readership can't stand the thought of one, and the remaining part can't stand the thought of the other. This is the predicament that Brandon has forced his readers into by tying a seemingly unbreakable commitment between two of the three parts of the triangle at this time, WITHOUT sufficiently closing the door on the remaining third party as an option. Seeing this, I can really understand why the vast majority of the readers of OB consider the matter closed, because it is much easier than having to face this particular predicament. Even for me, it is very tempting to just hand wave away all the buildup of Shalladin just so I can avoid having to think about the potential mess coming in the future. I am likely being very unimaginative when it comes to thinking about the possible future resolutions, and Brandon, being an experienced professional writer has something planned that none of us can conceive at this time. Right now, however, this is how I articulate why OB's handling of this bothers me so much, and why I can't stop talking about it.

There is so much textual support and word from the author against this statement that it makes me wonder if you a) didn't read certain parts of WoR or OB b ) have trouble with reading comprehension , or c) are trolling. And I honestly can't tell which...but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you missed the key passages in the books that refute your statement, and refer you to the numerous posts in this thread that articulate why your statement is factually wrong. 1. Yeah, I am familiar with cosmere principles such as investiture and realmatics. What you fail to distinguish is that while the underlying POWER cannot be destroyed, any personalities or individuals holding that power can be, and any individuals or personalities that are made up of splinters of that power can be. For example, there are ways for Syl to be destroyed, and for the power that made her up to not ever be able to be reconstituted into the character, individual, person that we know of as Sylphrena. So I'll concede, that perhaps it was never Brandon's intent to communicate that the "deadeye spren" were gone for good, and we got to see that in OB because they still maintained a form in the cognitive and physical world. Fair enough. I still argue that the many readers emotional reaction concerning the recreance is diminished by these revelations. 2. In addition, now that we know that revival of dead spren is possible and likely to happen, as readers, most of us will probably feel it is morally imperative for the narrative to spend time to recover and save all the deadeye spren possible, and that has the potential to be a major diversion of page time into this plot point. So either this item is going to develop into a VERY BIG DEAL for the remainder of the SA narrative and has fallen on a secondary character to drive the progression of that narrative, or it is a fun side plot that has major repercussions that are not going to be explored by the author. If it is the former, then BS should really give Adolin his due, and turn him into a deeper, and more interesting character, instead of playing at the boundaries of Adolin's plot involvement and restricting his page time. If it is the latter, then I think it is a lapse in writing judgement. 3. I have never argued, nor have I seen it argued, that Adolin needs to be a "tragic drama queen" in order to be an interesting character. To be an interesting and well developed main character, Adolin needs to have flaws that have meaningful impact to his personality, he needs to be proactive, and he needs to have struggles that allow him to have GROWTH. These challenges in WoK and WoR that you claim exist, can you list some in which Adolin actually failed? Or it had lasting consequences or repercussions to his relationships, his circumstances, how he approaches decisions. In your opinion, is there anything that Adolin can't do? Until BS starts deigning to give Adolin more of these items that he explores with his mains, then my reaction to Adolin is thus: "You are neither cold nor hot. So because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth!" - William Cutting, Gangs of New York

Oh I agree that your interpretation is becoming more plausible, that's why I included my last paragraph about my original thought being replaced with realization that this might be a thing. The better question is, why give this to a secondary character (as described by the author), if its going to be such a major plot point...

This just...completely reduces the emotional and narrative impact of the Recreance. These spren aren't really truly gone, lost because of the betrayal of their Radiants. They can be brought back, you see! They were never irredeemably beyond reach and there is new hope moving forward for reconciliation between humans and spren. No harm, no foul. Just need to get those blades in the hands of the right people, so they can have intimate conversations, go dancing, take long walks on the beach, and whatever the heck else is needed to forge enough of a contrived plot point, I mean connection, to revive the spren. Oh, and don't worry yourself with thoughts of how its supposed to be super duper extremely hard to do this, because our boy Adolin is here to show us the way. If anyone can do it, he can, yes indeedily doo. Maybe, after he's done showing everyone how to revive their spren blades, he could mosey on over to Westeros. I hear they are in need of a Prince that was Promised, perhaps his plot armor and "can do" attitude will help resolve that book series faster... Yeah, so, I realize I'm being overly snarky and sarcastic. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, just at the Mayalara Revival (band name anyone?) concept in general. I always thought this was like, an easter egg or bone that Brandon threw out to readers as a wink and a nod to what became a very popular fan theory following WoR. Entirely easy to do, but without any hint of major significance. But if this indeed is going to be made into a major plot point for the series, then I think I'm going to have an issue with it.

I never intended to be part of a gang, but if I am, then I'm going to require a better gang name...

Yeah, I'm in agreement with this. At this point, trying to convince someone who takes such a drastically opposite reading of the text seems like an exercise in futility until the author gives us more to go on. I think many of us posting here feel that we're contributing to find textual support for our interpretations, and we like to post it here to build our case. But none of that is really going to matter. You've accepted the reading that you want, and no new evidence to the contrary will matter. But I thank you for sharing your views none the less. I like to think that I am open to proceeding into book four with the possibility that all Adolin and Shallan need do is work through her remaining identity issues and be happy with each other as a married couple. But I'm also open to the alternative. I think it would be interesting to rehash some of this after book 4, and see who's reading of the text of OB turned it to be more accurate. Not hammer home who was right or wrong, but to discuss what about Brandon's writing of the text lead one group to the wrong conclusions, and another to the right conclusions. Why was this phrase taken as foreshadowing? Why did this scene play opposite to how the author intended. I find those conversations pretty fascinating.

The way I see it is: Shallan Davar = the whole and made up of: Shallan Kholin = the perfect lightened bride, and Vorin lady. The one Adolin loves, and wants to be married to and who in turn wants to love and be married to him Radiant Shallan = the knight radiant, who is strong, confident, and capable of being essentially a demigod among humans. the public face for the expectations of this position Veiled Shallan = the spy, the thief, the potential hitman. and when she is finally reintegrated, she may not be able to be Shallan Kholin any longer, both figuratively and literally...

Excellent post, @Dreamstorm. I think that definitely lends more weight to the side of the argument that Radiant and Veil are indeed pieces of her that she needs to be whole. Also, was thinking to myself this morning: I'd like to put forth a motion to rebrand "personaShallan" into "Shallan Kholin", since that is indeed what she is, and no longer Shallan Davar (what she was in WoK and WoR). She is the part of the whole Shallan that could be married to Adolin, so calling her a Kholin seems to fit.

Too late, you're ours now....*evil laughing ensues*

So regarding character flaws, I think a couple of things need to be present in order for me to believe that an author has done a good job in making the flaws legitimate to the reader - The "flaw" does not just relate to a one off moment in the narrative. It is persistent, and is referenced at multiple instances throughout the narrative. - The flaw needs to actually have a meaningful, or measurable affect on the character's behavior, decisions, and they should face some measure of consequences for their flaws, otherwise, the flaws are not defining character flaws, but instead are momentary lapses. Note, that this is just my belief around good writing, and I fully expect disagreement on these points from other people, but if I were to apply these two principles of mine to your list, some of them fit, and others don't. And I'd like to discuss further... 1. Hero worship: Fully agree here, and I think you can find multiple instances in the text where Adolin continually idolizes Dalinar, and instances where this trait impacts Adolin in negative ways during events throughout the narrative 2. Lack of self confidence: This one seems a bit trickier. I never, ever got the sense throughout WoK or WoR that Adolin suffered from a persistent lack of confidence in himself or his abilities. Or at least there is no clear scene or portion of the narrative I can recall that would indicate this to me. The only thing referenced as a potential for this one in WoR is in reference to his poor relationship skills, and even here, I think there is room for debate on whether this is a result of Adolin actually being poor and not confident in this area, OR it is simply Adolin sabotaging himself because he really doesn't WANT to be good at them. To me, Adolin's lack of self confidence is not something we really see until OB, where a change in his circumstances, position in social hierarchy, and competition to his love interest start to challenge the preconceived notions he's had about his confidence in his abilities. To me, the lack of self confidence is a new thing Adolin is feeling at the start of OB, and is pretty much resolved by the end of the Book. It is not a persistent character trait that he has been dealing with for a long time, but it is something that he had to deal with this book. 3. Again, this one I would disagree with. Other than the scene in OB where he dives into organizational tasks for Urithuru in the beginning, I really can't recall any instance in previous books that indicated to me that Adolin was a workaholic. He seemed to do just fine balancing his responsibilities (serving in his fathers army, investigating the strap, training, inspecting, patrolling etc) with things he enjoyed (drinking, courting, dueling) etc. In fact, he resisted initially much of the discipline and work ethic that Dalinar was imposing on him via the codes, because it interfered with his ability to take his leisure. This is not something i would expect from a workaholic either. I would say, more citations needed to demonstrate this point, other than the single instance. Otherwise, it is the same as above, a temporary item that he adopts in order to deal with a change in circumstance in the narrative. 4. Perhaps this could be true. I've never seen anything in the text to suggest that Adolin is a perfectionist at anything other than dueling. Maybe you have some more scenes that can further support this (being the resident Adolin expert, I know you must have some tucked away )? Otherwise, I think you may be projecting what you WISH Adolin had regarding his character traits, rather than what is actually written for the character. 5. Yes, he is definitely selfless, no arguments here. Whether it is a flaw, according to my own interpretations: well, it is regular, it is defining and repeats itself throughout the narrative. Does it have negative impacts to his character or what little arc he has been given? Not at the moment. Despite all his moments of self sacrifice, everything has worked out for him anyway. Something maybe we agree is a problem with the way the character has been written? I dunno. Show me an instance where his selflessness actually backfired on him, and caused him grief as a character, then I think we can add this one to the list 6. Emotionally easily manipulative - I would definitely say this would be very close to a character flaw. Shallan does it to him, Dalinar to an extent, Sadeas at the end. Sadeas had a very (at least initially) definite negative impact, i.e. the murder, though the long term consequences of it for Adolin personally seem pretty null. I think there is potential to see personal impact to him from Shallan's own emotional manipulation as we delve deeper into their marriage, so we'll have to see. Ultimately, many of these, if indeed these were flaws Brandon intended to convey to us, don't really seem that deep or impactful to Adolin as a character, or where he ends up in the narrative at least so far. Perhaps that is because there isn't enough page space, or Brandon doesn't feel inclined to make it deeper, I do not know. Some of these I think are worth exploring the earlier books to see if they hold up to the "persistence" rule I made for myself and outlined above. There might be indications of a lot of this in the text that I just don't know about, that's probably why I'll need to rely on you to help by posting them here. But if we don't find them, then I fear that we are merely trying to project onto this character because of the lack of depth he currently has...

I agree, Adolin is so emotionally invested in Shallan, that I just don't see any revelations she has for him to trigger any kind of angry it upset response. At least not from anything she had done up to this point And YES! I want to see Adolin blow up over Evi, absolutely. Now that is a compelling Adolin narrative I can get behind. What will Adolin's (arguably righteous) anger cause him to do, and who will it cause him to hurt. Gimme gimme gimme

All of your post was a good read, and I'm glad you made it. The above lines in particular have me thinking in different ways about my questions regarding the merits of having Shalladin in the narrative at all. So thank you for that. Drive-by snarking is a no go, you gotta earn your snark around here

So, I think that you may be conflating a couple of things, and perhaps misunderstanding some of my intent. How a piece of writing makes us feel, and how well a piece of writing is written are not always the same. I agree with you that yes, the enjoyment and interpretation of a piece of literature is a very personal, and subjective experience. But I also believe that how well something is written can be objectively debated, and there are generally agreed upon elements to writing and ways something is put together that we can use to evaluate this. If we couldn't, then why would we have publishers, editors? Why have any kind of classes on writing at all? Why would Brandon teach it? If one enjoys a piece of writing, can they ever feel that it is badly written? Interesting question to contemplate, and my answer would be yes. I feel that way about many things, books, television, movies. Coming back to OB, what I'm saying is that I don't think the writing is potentially "objectively bad" because of where we ended up: Shallan and Adolin married. I'm saying it is objectively bad because of how we got there. I wasn't stating that I am unequivocally right about this. I put forth my assertion, offered arguments, and invited you to provide yours to counter. It wasn't meant to be an I'm right and you're wrong statement. It was an invitation to convince me, or at least address some of the issues I have with the writing that I feel go largely without discussion by those who were happy with were we ended, regardless of how it was arrived at. I would at least like to see some response to the issues raised, instead of you assuming I could never be convinced, I don't have to be right, and you don't have to share my opinion, but I will admit i do enjoy attempting to change minds through discussion. But it is the process itself that is enjoyable for me, not necessarily the end state. It is why I too, can remain close friends with those who share very different viewpoints and opinions than I. If you don't want to participate in this discussion, then I'm not going to push you. Should you wish to respond, you can, but please don't feel obligated. Concerning the rest of your post above, much of what you lay out is of course part of the subjective interpretation of the text. However, you do kind of start to get to speaking specifically about writing, and potentially addressing on of my burning questions about why add Kaladin romantically to the plot, and what purpose did it serve: "an excellent subversion of typical romance narratives". Could you elaborate on this? Was the element of subversion of typical romance plots worthy of introducing into the SA? If so, why, and how did its subversiveness add to the narrative?

Cool. Then perhaps with you in particular, I shall approach it from a writing perspective. If Shadolin was Brandon's end game all along for this arc (as taking this scene at face value like you do would require), then I think there are reasonable arguments to be made as to why bringing Kaladin into the mix at all was objectively bad writing. Until i have more time to delve into this in detail, I'll leave you with a high level summary 1. Kaladin and Shallan were introduced as a potential love connection by the text of WoR, and continued into OB, however none of their feelings were explored in any depth with themselves, or with each other. The romance angle had no impact on their respective narratives (so far, or in this scenario, ever), so Brandon could have easily left it as friendly comrades, instead of the hinted "braided roses" trope that so many Shadolin supporters seem to loathe. He spent a lot of page time building this up. A lot of references, a lot of foreshadowing. So much so that I know for a fact many Shadolin shippers were afraid that this was exactly where it was going. 2. Shalladin had no impact on the positive progression of Shadolin, so any argument that Kaladin was included to provide some much needed tension, or an obstacle for Shadolin to overcome seems pretty far reaching. Why not make Shallan's personalities be an issue between them from the start? Why not make Adolin have more doubts from the get go. Why not actually show some of Adolin's purported weaknesses with courting and romance, explore it as a character trait more in depth? I feel pretty comfortable in saying that choosing to forgo any obstacle building between Shallan and Adolin for the meat of the book, and instead leaving it to the end to rush it all with a few pages of the second to last chapter is poor romance writing. 3. Relying on Kaladin as a love interest to help sell readers on the splitting of Shallan's personalities seems like a risky move, considering how many readers were so loathe to imagine a love triangle. There were many ways that Brandon could have explored this facet of her arc, but he didn't, and ultimately, Kaladin wasn't even a cause for any of her fractured personalities, so you could remove his involvement, and you'd still end up with Veil (created in WoR), or Radiant (created in OB by Adolin interaction). Why add it to your writing, if it is not going to have any impact to your characters decisions or the trajectory of their arcs. Take Kaladin and Shallan romance out, and everyone still ends up where they are currently at, in much the same exact way. This is bad writing. Don't introduce it, if it is not going to have an impact (Chekhov's gun). When I look at this portion of the narrative from a cohesive plotting and writing standpoint, and only look at it at face value, it stinks of sloppiness. What use did the romantic hints of Shalladin serve? Nothing, if I were to take your interpretation of the book. Why waste the screen time on it? Why embed it in so many parts of the books? It never provided any real emotional conflict for the characters, nor conflict for us. All it did, up until that very final scene we were just discussing, is fill Shadolin shippers with anxiety, and Shalladin shippers with expectations. So then I have to ask myself a question: do I think Brandon is such a sloppy writer, that he would intentionally write it this way, to be taken at face value? Or is there something else at work here? I choose to believe the latter, though at the same time I am not ruling out the former. Your thoughts, Feather?

Much more succinct than my continued edits to my single post above. Thanks.