Hemalurgy and intent

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

A quick question about hemalurgy and intent here...

How big of a deal does intent play in hemalurgy?   I think I remember that spook became a pewterarm just by being shish kabobed on a sword with a pewterarm who died and the sword broke off inside spooks body.  

Where does intent play in this scenario that took spook from daredevil status to dang spiderman strength and reflexes? 

Feel free to correct my memory of how spook got his spike if I am incorrect and there was an intent to steal the pewterarms power.  

[Frustration]

The guy that stabbed Spook was under the influence of Ruin, it was his intent that made the spiking possible

[Quantus]

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The guy that stabbed Spook was under the influence of Ruin, it was his intent that made the spiking possible

This, and the answer to the OP is Entirely a big deal.  It cannot work without Intent and Intent is the 3rd thing that defines What the spike does, behind the Metal and the Bind Points.  The metal will always restrict you and the wrong Bind Points can cause unexpected results (which is where a lot of the experimentation happens).  And if you used Atium that can steal anything, Intent would have to do the duty of the metal in deciding what you stole. 

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Does Hemalurgy require intent to steal the stuff? Or could somebody in theory just stab through in the exact-- I understand the chances are extremely slim, it's like accupuncture ...happen by accident?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing, you've seen it happen without the intent of the person holding the spike.

Questioner

But I think it's commonly accepted that Ruin was sort of manipulating some-- I'm specifically taking the Spook example off the table, I'm just saying, someone by accident stab - whoops! stab - whoops! and have a power?

Brandon Sanderson

Again, Ruin was involved in that. Every spike-- spiking that you saw had Ruin's intent behind it. I'm not going to answer your question, RAFO. You tried, you got me to admit that I was trying to wiggle around it, and I will tell you, today I wiggled around one question that none of you saw me wiggle around, really well, today. Today. I'm not going to tell you which one it is but there is one here that you all thought, you're all like "woo!" but you didn't realize you'd given me so much wiggle room.

Moderator

So about that space station.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not that one.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

So anytime someone transfers something hemalurgically who didn't themself intend to do it and ruin is in the game it is assumed that he himself as a shard wanted it to happen so it happened?   

I mean you can't argue with the god of the cosmere saying that another god in his creation has that power.  I'm trying to wrap my head around it a bit still.  

Was the person stabbing spook under ruins influence via hemalurgy or is this truly just a case of "It is cause I said it is."   Nothing wrong either way I just don't know if I missed a hint in the book.  

[StanLemon]

He likely wasn't under Ruin's influence. It can be argued that because Ruin, like all Shards, is technically everywhere and is the Shardic source of Hemalurgy that he could imbue his Intent any time metal pierced a bind point in order to create a Spike.

[+Invocation]

On 11/12/2021 at 2:34 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I mean you can't argue with the god of the cosmere saying that another god in his creation has that power.  I'm trying to wrap my head around it a bit still.  

It's Ruin's magic system. He's got some leeway with it, like with how Preservation altered Allomancy for Era 1. There may also have been a factor of the pressure being applied to the stabber let Ruin influence him subconsciously just enough to push him over the edge and hit the bindpoint right.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Invocation

[FictionSpren]

also if I remember correctly the dude who stabbed spook through the pewterarm behaved almost like he was being propelled by another being (It was Ruin wasn't it?). So This dude had the intent to stab through the pewter to specifically spike Spook.

So there's your Intent.

[Trusk'our]

Hemalurgy requires Intent to be used, so it can't be used by someone accidentally. 

However, does it need to be your Intent?

For example, you shoot a gun at a person, and it just so happens to pass through a Hemalurgically valid bind point, and the bullet is Hemalurgically viable. If some onlooker saw this happen, knew about Hemalurgy, and wanted the bullet to perform a Hemalurgic removal, would it happen?

[+Bzhydack]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgy requires Intent to be used, so it can't be used by someone accidentally. 

However, does it need to be your Intent?

For example, you shoot a gun at a person, and it just so happens to pass through a Hemalurgically valid bind point, and the bullet is Hemalurgically viable. If some onlooker saw this happen, knew about Hemalurgy, and wanted the bullet to perform a Hemalurgic removal, would it happen?

I think Intent belongs to the entity who starts action. Normally this is the same person who spikes, but sometimes can be some strong enough to control this person (like Shard i.e. Ruin). But I dont think just seeing action of stabbing is enough to deliver proper Intent.

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

However, does it need to be your Intent?

For example, you shoot a gun at a person, and it just so happens to pass through a Hemalurgically valid bind point, and the bullet is Hemalurgically viable. If some onlooker saw this happen, knew about Hemalurgy, and wanted the bullet to perform a Hemalurgic removal, would it happen?

You are dancing around the big elephant. Can the Intent be retroactive?

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

You are dancing around the big elephant. Can the Intent be retroactive?

You mean if someone had Intent to perform Hemalurgy in the past, and then much later it was able to take effect? I'm not sure I understand your question.

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Trusk'our said:

You mean if someone had Intent to perform Hemalurgy in the past, and then much later it was able to take effect? I'm not sure I understand your question.

No, if somebody learns that the spike went through the heart after the fact, does it thereby become potent?

[Trusk'our]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No, if somebody learns that the spike went through the heart after the fact, does it thereby become potent?

I'd say probably not, as it shouldn't be in a position to pull off a piece of someone's spiritweb any longer. It would be a bit like if you were to awaken an object, then say "oh shoot, I actually wanted to use this other, way better command"; you wouldn't suddenly be able to do that after you had done the deed, unless you were to repeat the process.

Now, I could be wrong, as Hemalurgy heavily involves the spiritual realm, and things like time and space get real wonky when that's involved, but I'd say it's not likely.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No, if somebody learns that the spike went through the heart after the fact, does it thereby become potent?

The spike itself should know, so as long as the person wanted it to happen, it should work.

[cometaryorbit]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgy requires Intent to be used, so it can't be used by someone accidentally. 

However, does it need to be your Intent?

For example, you shoot a gun at a person, and it just so happens to pass through a Hemalurgically valid bind point, and the bullet is Hemalurgically viable. If some onlooker saw this happen, knew about Hemalurgy, and wanted the bullet to perform a Hemalurgic removal, would it happen?

I doubt any random uninvolved bystander can add the Intent.

Ruin can, and did in the Spook case, but Ruin is present in everything on Scadrial and it's his magic system - he's not an uninvolved bystander. Except in the case of Ruin (or now Harmony) I think the spike user needs the Intent.

[+Bzhydack]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No, if somebody learns that the spike went through the heart after the fact, does it thereby become potent?

Dont think so. Spike required to be in contact with blood when is made (and this mean, with soul). After death, soul goes to Beond, and is no longer accesable, so parts of it cant be ripped off.

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Dont think so. Spike required to be in contact with blood when is made (and this mean, with soul). After death, soul goes to Beond, and is no longer accesable, so parts of it cant be ripped off.

That's a way better explanation than what I gave.