Why did Odium go to Roshar?

[KnightsOfHonor]

A question just occurred to me. Let’s say you are goods divine hatred, separated from all that gave it context and your main goal in life seems to be destroying any entity that could ever rival you in power or influence. So you set out to destroy all the other shards. Which ones would you go after? The ones by themselves? Perhaps. Seems like a safe bet. The ones who pose the greatest challenge to your goals? Perhaps. Depending on if you think you could get the advantage over them. How about where a pair of shards are already at battle with each other? Seems like the place I would want to start. But no, where do you end up going? A system containing 2 shards who appear to be working together, who seem content to stay out of your way.

 

       The only thing I can figure is that he was tricked into going there or he thought he would have help *squints suspiciously at cultivation* but what ended up happening was exactly what I would have guessed would happen. The two shards in that system were very smart and powerful and trapped him there were he ultimately end up getting killed (at least the vessel). So Why on Adonalsium green earth did Odium think going to the Roshar system would be a good idea? Why not pick off the single shards first or go after the ones already in conflict with one another? What am I missing? What would be worth going up against those odds? A Dawnshard perhaps? I know that he followed the humans there, but why? How did he think things would go? Show up, take out not one, but two shards, and then walk away unscathed? He is the god of hatred, not arrogance. 
 

[Frustration]

Odium is justifying his actions to the other shards by saying he's going after shards that broke thier agreement.

And Honor and Cultivation fit the bill

Edited November 8, 2021 by Frustration

[+Harrycrapper]

59 minutes ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

How did he think things would go? Show up, take out not one, but two shards, and then walk away unscathed? He is the god of hatred, not arrogance. 

It worked on Sel...

[Letryx13]

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Odium is justifying his actions to the other shards by saying he's going after shards that broke thier agreement.

And Honor and Cultivation fit the bill

And unfortunately, if he ever manages to escape Roshar, Preservation and Ruin would also qualify.  Their situation might have been different, since those specific shards seem like they're supposed to be used together, but you can bet Odium won't accept that. Which means Sazed is in trouble.  But when did Odium say that was his justification? I thought that was just endowment expressing disappointment that most of the Shards didn't keep to that agreement.

21 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

It worked on Sel...

In fairness, Devotion and Dominion were something along the lines of rivals or competitors.  There were probably cracks between them he could exploit, especially since he hadn't really divested any of his power yet. Honor and Cultivation seem to have worked together harmoniously even before Odium's Arrival

[mathiau]

47 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Odium is justifying his actions to the other shards by saying he's going after shards that broke thier agreement.

And Honor and Cultivation fit the bill

The fact Change is there might not be a coincidence, depending on whether it came here before of after Odium.

Just now, Letryx13 said:

In fairness, Devotion and Dominion were something along the lines of rivals or competitors.

Is that an assumption or a fact?

[Letryx13]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Is that an assumption or a fact?

I read it somewhere.  I can't remember where, probably some wiki, but it mentioned that Devotion and Dominion opposed each other, but not on the level of Preservation and Ruin.

 

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The fact Change is there might not be a coincidence, depending on whether it came here before of after Odium.

I think there is very little chance that Change being there is a coincidence, from a plot perspective at the very least.  But Honor tells Dalinar that it would be difficult to stop Odium without the DawnShards (or at least laments that they don't have them) so he probably didn't know Change was there. And if Odium was being sincere about how badly he wanted away form Roshar, and I think he was, then he probably didn't know it was there either.  So I doubt Odium was there hunting for it.

[mathiau]

Just now, Letryx13 said:

I read it somewhere.  I can't remember where, probably some wiki, but it mentioned that Devotion and Dominion opposed each other, but not on the level of Preservation and Ruin.

I only remember WoBs saying they were like Yin and Yang, which I think would means "opposite but complementary" and not "opposite and enemies"

Quote

I think there is very little chance that Change being there is a coincidence, from a plot perspective at the very least.  But Honor tells Dalinar that it would be difficult to stop Odium without the DawnShards (or at least laments that they don't have them) so he probably didn't know Change was there. And if Odium was being sincere about how badly he wanted away form Roshar, and I think he was, then he probably didn't know it was there either.  So I doubt Odium was there hunting for it.

Makes sense

[Letryx13]

10 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I only remember WoBs saying they were like Yin and Yang, which I think would means "opposite but complementary" and not "opposite and enemies"

Which pair? That description sounds more like Preservation and Ruin.

[mathiau]

7 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Which pair? That description sounds more like Preservation and Ruin.

I was talking about D&D. But yes, if they hadn't gone to war Preservation and Ruin would have fit it very well to

[teknopathetic]

Interesting that Honour of all people would immediately go against the agreement, but i remember seeing a WOB that Honour doesn't believe he broke the pact. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by teknopathetic

[KnightsOfHonor]

It just seems like going after Preservation and Ruin first would make way more strategic sense.

46 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I read it somewhere.  I can't remember where, probably some wiki, but it mentioned that Devotion and Dominion opposed each other, but not on the level of Preservation and Ruin.

 

I think there is very little chance that Change being there is a coincidence, from a plot perspective at the very least.  But Honor tells Dalinar that it would be difficult to stop Odium without the DawnShards (or at least laments that they don't have them) so he probably didn't know Change was there. And if Odium was being sincere about how badly he wanted away form Roshar, and I think he was, then he probably didn't know it was there either.  So I doubt Odium was there hunting for it.

And I did not think about that. But what you said about the DawnShard makes sense. So now the only reason I could think of for him to go there is out haha. And on top of all this, another thing I thought of, Bondsmiths seem like one of the few non shard things that could prove to be problematic for a shard. So he definitely stacked the deck against himself. 

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Interesting that Honour of all people would immediately go against the agreement, but i remember seeing a WOB that Honour doesn't believe he broke the pact. 

There wasn't really a pact in a formal sense. The shards didn't make any oaths that they would stay separate, so Honor has done nothing against his intent.

[+mdross81]

24 minutes ago, Nameless said:

There wasn't really a pact in a formal sense. The shards didn't make any oaths that they would stay separate, so Honor has done nothing against his intent.

That’s right. And to whatever extent there was an agreement, it was only that they wouldn’t interfere with one another. This is from Endowment’s reply to Hoid in the OB 39 epigraph:

Quote

No good can come of two Shards settling in one location. It was agreed that we would not interfere with one another, and it disappoints me that so few of the Shards have kept to this original agreement.

I take her statement to mean that she thinks co-location is a bad idea because it will inevitably lead to interference.

[Letryx13]

 

31 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Interesting that Honour of all people would immediately go against the agreement, but i remember seeing a WOB that Honour doesn't believe he broke the pact. 

Hard to understand that one. Endowment said they all agreed no good could come from multiple shards settling in one place.

23 minutes ago, Nameless said:

There wasn't really a pact in a formal sense. The shards didn't make any oaths that they would stay separate, so Honor has done nothing against his intent.

That makes a little more sense, but Endowment implied there was one. It kind of feels like a lawyer style loophole, where they agreed it would be better if they stayed separate, but never officially agreed to do so.

31 minutes ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

It just seems like going after Preservation and Ruin first would make way more strategic sense.

And I did not think about that. But what you said about the DawnShard makes sense. So now the only reason I could think of for him to go there is out haha. And on top of all this, another thing I thought of, Bondsmiths seem like one of the few non shard things that could prove to be problematic for a shard. So he definitely stacked the deck against himself. 

Don't forget, BondSmiths didn't exist yet when Odium first moved to Roshar. But I agree an unrestrained BondSmith could probably pose a threat to a shard, thought likely for a very high price.

Ruin is probably the most dangerous Shard after Odium. If I were him, I'd want to take my time and build up an army before going after the divine force of entropy.

And something I just thought of, but it's possible that Odium didn't actually choose Roshar, but just followed the humans that Honor allowed in.  

[RedBlue]

3 hours ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

Which ones would you go after? The ones by themselves? Perhaps. Seems like a safe bet. The ones who pose the greatest challenge to your goals? Perhaps. Depending on if you think you could get the advantage over them. How about where a pair of shards are already at battle with each other? Seems like the place I would want to start. But no, where do you end up going? A system containing 2 shards who appear to be working together, who seem content to stay out of your way.

Judging from the Shards which Odium did choose to go after first, I think he’s gunning for the Shards he feels most threatened by first. Out of the Shards we know of, Ambition and Dominion sound like they would be most likely to hatch a plan to take over the cosmere (other than Odium, of course). Devotion is less threatening, but just happened to be there.

Which would imply that the third most threatening Shard was either Honor or Cultivation. My guess is that Rayse thought Cultivation’s Vessel was dangerous and wanted her out of the way.

[KnightsOfHonor]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Don't forget, BondSmiths didn't exist yet when Odium first moved to Roshar. But I agree an unrestrained BondSmith could probably pose a threat to a shard, thought likely for a very high price.

 

I thought Ishar had his powers before getting to Roshar?

 

57 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Judging from the Shards which Odium did choose to go after first, I think he’s gunning for the Shards he feels most threatened by first. Out of the Shards we know of, Ambition and Dominion sound like they would be most likely to hatch a plan to take over the cosmere (other than Odium, of course). Devotion is less threatening, but just happened to be there.

Which would imply that the third most threatening Shard was either Honor or Cultivation. My guess is that Rayse thought Cultivation’s Vessel was dangerous and wanted her out of the way.

 

It does seem he was taking out potential rivals. So why did he not go after Ruin?

 

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

 

Ruin is probably the most dangerous Shard after Odium. If I were him, I'd want to take my time and build up an army before going after the divine force of entropy.

And something I just thought of, but it's possible that Odium didn't actually choose Roshar, but just followed the humans that Honor allowed in.  

I agree about Ruin being the most dangerous but, and someone correct me on the timeline, would it not have been in Odiums favor to strike while Ruin and Preservation were fighting each other? If he waited, one of them might have "won" and then he would have to fight ether a combo shard or at least a shard who had also figured out how to deal with other shards. Or, less likley, if they K.O.'ed each other, one person might pick both of them up and then he would have to deal with a combo anyway. No matter how it turns out, it would seem in his best interest to strike before the Ruin Presorvation conflict ended.

And I think you might be on to something about him following the people. Maybe he was already tied to them in some way or maybe he saw it as an oportunity to get an upperhand on Roshar and just took it and it was not originally the plan.

[Letryx13]

10 minutes ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

I thought Ishar had his powers before getting to Roshar?

The storm father said that Ishar experimented with the surges, but I don't think he was really a BondSmith until he got his honor blade.

12 minutes ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

It does seem he was taking out potential rivals. So why did he not go after Ruin?

I agree about Ruin being the most dangerous but, and someone correct me on the timeline, would it not have been in Odiums favor to strike while Ruin and Preservation were fighting each other? If he waited, one of them might have "won" and then he would have to fight ether a combo shard or at least a shard who had also figured out how to deal with other shards. Or, less likley, if they K.O.'ed each other, one person might pick both of them up and then he would have to deal with a combo anyway. No matter how it turns out, it would seem in his best interest to strike before the Ruin Presorvation conflict ended.

And I think you might be on to something about him following the people. Maybe he was already tied to them in some way or maybe he saw it as an oportunity to get an upperhand on Roshar and just took it and it was not originally the plan.

I'm kind of with you on this one. That seems like it should have been the first pair to target, if he had the freedom to choose where to go where he wanted. Unless he thought there was something different about Preservation and Ruin's conflict, something he couldn't exploit.  In which case, he'd want to prepare, maybe raise an army before going after them.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

And unfortunately, if he ever manages to escape Roshar, Preservation and Ruin would also qualify.  Their situation might have been different, since those specific shards seem like they're supposed to be used together, but you can bet Odium won't accept that. Which means Sazed is in trouble.  But when did Odium say that was his justification? I thought that was just endowment expressing disappointment that most of the Shards didn't keep to that agreement.

WoB is were that's from, I can provide it if you wish.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

We know there were dawnshards( plural) in the rosharan systems at that time. We know that the rosharan system was created by Adonalsium. The three moons just so happen to be at the Lagrange points of the orbit around the earth. The singers and the entire ecology was also created by Adonalsium. The Rosharan world needs spren to survive at all, meaning there was a lot of free investiture there anyway. So roshar has always been a special little planet.

Cultivation seems to have the best futuresight in the area. Endowment is also close by and alone on a planet. I think odium just thought that no matter how romantically involved Tanavast and Koravellium were, they would end up fighting each other due to their differing intents. He thought it would happen like devotion and dominion. Instead he was surprised to find out that they actually worked together really well and bound him to the planet

[RedBlue]

8 hours ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

It does seem he was taking out potential rivals. So why did he not go after Ruin?

Ruin was all about entropy, right? This is just speculation on my part, but entropy isn’t an immediate threat to Odium. He can put off dealing with Ruin until after he’s sorted out his more active rivals.

As for why he didn’t take advantage of the conflict between Ruin and Preservation, we don’t have a very clear picture of what the situation was on Scadrial before Odium got trapped on Roshar. It’s possible that the conflict hadn’t properly started at that time. 

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

Ruin was all about entropy, right? This is just speculation on my part, but entropy isn’t an immediate threat to Odium. He can put off dealing with Ruin until after he’s sorted out his more active rivals.

As for why he didn’t take advantage of the conflict between Ruin and Preservation, we don’t have a very clear picture of what the situation was on Scadrial before Odium got trapped on Roshar. It’s possible that the conflict hadn’t properly started at that time. 

Ruin is basically entropy, destruction, and intelligent decay.  I have a hard time accepting Odium wouldn't consider him a top level threat or obstacle. 

I think you might be on to something about the state of Preservation and Ruin's conflict, however.  I might be wrong, but it was only about 2000 year before the events of the original trilogy that Preservation and Ruin made their deal. Supposedly, no one ever took up the power at the well of ascension before Rashek, so Ruin was only imprisoned for 2000 years. Depending on how the timelines between Roshar and Scadrial match up, Preservation and Ruin were probably in some sort of stalemate when Odium starting attacking other worlds.  The status of that stalemate might have influenced his decision, if he could move freely from world to world. 

[teknopathetic]

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Ruin is basically entropy, destruction, and intelligent decay.  I have a hard time accepting Odium wouldn't consider him a top level threat or obstacle. 

Maybe Odium thought Ruin and Preservation might kill or wound eachother, so he could go somewhere else for the time being.