[Theory] Uncorrupted Truthwatchers Have Foresight Potential

[Cocoa he/him]

So, I've been looking over a lot of things related to the Truthwatchers over the past few days, and I think I may have stumbled on an intriguing thread.

Up to this point, I (and so far as I can tell, most other readers) have chalked up Renarin's foresight visions as being the result of Glys' corruption/enlightenment by Sja-Anat, since predicting the future is regarded as being of Odium in-universe. And I do still think that's part of it, but I don't think it's the whole story. Remember way back to WoK, what Honor said in his final message to Dalinar:

Quote

The figure squinted at the horizon. “I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. It’s as if the future is a shattering window. The further you look, the more pieces that window breaks into. The near future can be anticipated, but the distant future … I can only guess.”

- WoK Chapter 75

Emphasis mine. 'Cultivation,' the growing of things in a certain way, is also an Intent that lends itself well to predicting the future, and we know she was at least skilled and confident enough in her abilities to gamble on the creation of Todium.

Taken together I think all this goes to show that the in-universe attitude of acting like future prediction 'belongs' to Odium is a false assumption that fails to account for Cultivation's affinity with that ability, and this is what the rest of my theory ultimately hinges on.

 

Now, moving on, let's take a look at the radiant order/surgebinding chart:

If you look, there's a couple dichotomies between the top and bottom halves of the chart, which I believe indicate that the two halves are mirrors of each other with the top weighted towards Honor and the bottom towards Cultivation. On the top we have all male (like Honor) Heralds, and on the bottom we have all female (like Cultivation) Heralds. Where we have the Windrunners (bound to Honorspren) above, directly below we have the Edgedancers (bound to Cultivationspren). Where we have "Honor's truest surge" of Adhesion above, below it we have Progression (which, while as far as we know is not purely of Cultivation, seems to be the closest of the surges to her thematically and was one of two usable radiant surges during the occupation of Urithiru). And while it's not on the chart, we have a WoB saying that Truthwatcher spren are closer to Cultivation than Honor.

So, with this in mind, I think the Truthwatchers are the Cultivation-aligned mirror of the Bondsmiths, being capable of using their respective Shard's 'truest surge' and mimicking their Shard's abilities, and using their surges in more Spiritual ways than their neighboring orders. And as we've seen, in Dalinar's case that affinity with the Spiritual Realm tends to manfest itself in the creation of visions for himself and others. It was at this point that, to me, Renarin's visions looked less like a product of Odium's influence, and more like something that was already there and tweaked by Sja-Anat.

 

Quote

Of the Unmade, Sja-anat was most feared by the Radiants. They spoke extensively of her ability to corrupt spren, though only "lesser" spren—whatever that means. —From Hessi’s Mythica, page 89

- OB Chapter 97 Epigraph

Quote

Don’t tell anyone. I can’t say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this. —From drawer 30-20, a particularly small emerald

- OB Chapter 85 Epigraph

Before i get to this last bit, I'll freely admit I think this is the flimsiest evidence I have in support of this theory. There's a lot of potential for unreliable narrators and missing or corrupted pieces of history and all that.

The quote from Mythica would seem to indicate that the corruption of radiant spren is a new phenomenon, or at least that the ancient radiants didn't seem to know about it if it was happening. In that case, there wouldn't have been any spren like Glys around, and there wouldn't be any precognitive Truthwatchers if Sja-Anat's corruption is the source of that ability.

Now, take a look at that recorded quote from the Urithiru gem archive. While the speaker could be speaking in a mundane sense when they say they foresaw something (probably the Recreance or the side effects of bonding BAM), the fact that it was included in the book makes me think it's more significant than that. If this unknown Truthwatcher really did have foresight, then that leaves two potential possibilities I can think of. The first is that their Mistspren (and possibly other radiant spren) had become corrupted, but that between them probably not wanting to advertise that fact and it being so close to the Recreance that fact was lost to history. The other possibility is, as I've said, that Truthwatchers don't need to be corrupted to have precognition.

 

Like I said at the start, I do still think that Sja-Anat's corruption/enlightenment changes how the precognition works somehow. It's possible that, in normal Truthwatchers, the precognition is far more subtle, circumstantial, difficult to get working, etc., which could be why we haven't seen or heard mention of, say, Stump seeing the future. I think there's a good chance that the corruption makes it stronger or more accessible, possibly at the cost of 'flavoring' the visions, making it more likely that you'll see painful things or worst-case-scenarios. But I think it is a change to an existing ability, not creating a new one altogether.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Cocoa

[Honorless he/him]

I agree! I theorized that the futuresight might've come from a Resonance between the Truthwatchers' two Surges: Illumination of  Progression. 

[Going_North_cal]

This makes me want to go through the Radiant orders, deciding whether they truly match Cultivation or Honor, according to the theory. Might do that.

[Cocoa he/him]

12 hours ago, Honorless said:

I agree! I theorized that the futuresight might've come from a Resonance between the Truthwatchers' two Surges: Illumination of  Progression. 

Yep, that tracks with what I've been thinking.

30 minutes ago, Theldragor said:

This makes me want to go through the Radiant orders, deciding whether they truly match Cultivation or Honor, according to the theory. Might do that.

That sounds neat, I'd love to see what you come up with if you do.

[Letryx13]

I like the idea of them having the potential, but it seems unlikely. Honor specifically tells Dalinar that to speak of the future is forbidden. Of course, all the shards have the ability to see the future, with various levels of skill. But it seems unlikely that he would grant the ability himself.  

[StanLemon]

4 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

But it seems unlikely that he would grant the ability himself.  

Shards have limited control of the powers bestowed in Invested Arts. He might have prevented previous Truthwatchers in the past like how he prevented Bondsmiths from utilizing their full potential. But now that he's dead, it might be a natural ability they can access. Perhaps the corrupted spren merely enhance the ability at the cost of weakening the normal uses of the Surge

[Letryx13]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Shards have limited control of the powers bestowed in Invested Arts. He might have prevented previous Truthwatchers in the past like how he prevented Bondsmiths from utilizing their full potential. But now that he's dead, it might be a natural ability they can access. Perhaps the corrupted spren merely enhance the ability at the cost of weakening the normal uses of the Surge

Maybe.  But I think it's probably similar to how Odium never created a Fuzed with the power of adhesion.  I know Rabonial told Venli that it was because they didn't consider adhesion a surge, but that was obviously propaganda. I suspect Odium fears the power of adhesion. It's possible he doesn't have the ability to grant a Fuzed that power, but I think it's more likely he fears the potential of a mortal with that power, just as I suspect Honor feared a mortal with the power to see the future.

[Going_North_cal]

49 minutes ago, Cocoa said:

Yep, that tracks with what I've been thinking.

That sounds neat, I'd love to see what you come up with if you do.

I will make a doc and go over this. I will post it into this forum mwahahahaha.

[LuckyJim]

On 10/30/2021 at 2:23 AM, Honorless said:

I agree! I theorized that the futuresight might've come from a Resonance between the Truthwatchers' two Surges: Illumination of  Progression. 

Something I noticed that might relate to this.

In WoR, when Pattern talks to Shallan about her surges and powers, he mentions something about using Illumination to access the Spiritual Realm, which he calls "a realm of only truth" (or something similar, I'm not quoting directly). In context, he's discussing how she's been using Illumination to show the deserters more idealized versions of herself, and their own selves through her sketches.

We also know that Progression has some relation to the Spiritual Realm, since it heals people by conforming their physical body to their spiritual ideal. So maybe both surges together allow the user to more directly look into the Spiritual Realm, at least in a kind of limited sense.

Edited October 31, 2021 by LuckyJim

[teknopathetic he/him]

I have a pet theory that Odium spread the lie that Futuresight is always of him so that feedback-loops like Renarin would be less likely to occur. 

[Letryx13]

12 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I have a pet theory that Odium spread the lie that Futuresight is always of him so that feedback-loops like Renarin would be less likely to occur. 

Well, it's interesting that so far, none of Odium's forces, except one of the unmade, really have any talent for Futuresight. Or at least, that we've seen so far. Honor tells Dalinar in one of the visions that speaking of the future is forbidden, but I do agree that Odium probably encouraged the idea. It's probably one of the only things that worries him.  If there were large numbers of people with that power, it would cause real trouble for Odium.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 30.10.2021 at 8:23 AM, Honorless said:

I agree! I theorized that the futuresight might've come from a Resonance between the Truthwatchers' two Surges: Illumination of  Progression. 

The one whose Illumination does not work shows the best Futuresight.

56 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Well, it's interesting that so far, none of Odium's forces, except one of the unmade, really have any talent for Futuresight. Or at least, that we've seen so far.

One of the Forms of Power is reported to have Futuresight.

[Parzival]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The one whose Illumination does not work shows the best Futuresight.

Renarin has illumination, it just works a little differently, kinda like how Dalinar and Kaladin share adhesion but have vastly different power sets. He is shows to be able to make a glowing ball of light when playing with some kids in RoW, that would be illumination

[+Oltux72 he/him]

24 minutes ago, Parzival said:

Renarin has illumination, it just works a little differently, kinda like how Dalinar and Kaladin share adhesion but have vastly different power sets. He is shows to be able to make a glowing ball of light when playing with some kids in RoW, that would be illumination

Well, no, as there is nothing Kaladin can do with Adhesion that Dalinar could not do. Renarin is qualitatively different.

[Letryx13]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

One of the Forms of Power is reported to have Futuresight.

Maybe, but we haven't seen it in action yet, so we can't really say how it will work.  Considering the differences between Radiant and Fuzed surgebinding, it will likely be different that what Renarin does.  And if it's a power he completely controls, then maybe he can give it in a way that doesn't interfere with his own sight much.

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, no, as there is nothing Kaladin can do with Adhesion that Dalinar could not do. Renarin is qualitatively different.

I always interpreted WindRunner and BondSmith uses of adhesion differing as a matter of density.  Dalinar can connect with someone on a much deeper level, to the point where he can learn their language with his powers.  Kaladin uses the power of spiritual adhesion (I think unconsciously) to connect with a lot of people.  I'm guessing that's why WindRunners can support so many squires.

 

2 hours ago, Parzival said:

Renarin has illumination, it just works a little differently, kinda like how Dalinar and Kaladin share adhesion but have vastly different power sets. He is shows to be able to make a glowing ball of light when playing with some kids in RoW, that would be illumination

He definitely has access to some level of Illumination, but his control over it is much less that what a TruthWatcher's should be. Navani said the standard TruthWatchers they'd recruited, including the Stump, could create illusions just like the LightWeavers.

[StanLemon]

Two points of note.

Kaladin has used Adhesion to alter air pressure. Dalinar has not done anything like this.

And second, the biggest direct use of Illumination we saw Renarin use ended up with an effect very similar Malatium. 

[Letryx13]

16 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

And second, the biggest direct use of Illumination we saw Renarin use ended up with an effect very similar Malatium. 

Closer to gold, I'd say.  Not who Moash had been in the past, but who he could be if he'd made different choices. But I like the comparison, it's probably a similar process.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 2.11.2021 at 5:19 PM, Parzival said:

Renarin has illumination, it just works a little differently, kinda like how Dalinar and Kaladin share adhesion but have vastly different power sets. He is shows to be able to make a glowing ball of light when playing with some kids in RoW, that would be illumination

Well, no sound, no distinct shapes ...
For all we know that is his resonance, not Illumination.

 

23 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Kaladin has used Adhesion to alter air pressure. Dalinar has not done anything like this.

Dalinar is no longer stupid enough to run around in a Highstorm.

23 hours ago, StanLemon said:

And second, the biggest direct use of Illumination we saw Renarin use ended up with an effect very similar Malatium. 

Which very much speaks against that this effect is Illumination at all.

[Parzival]

26 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, no sound, no distinct shapes ...
For all we know that is his resonance, not Illumination.

It's metnioned that some of the lightweavers couldn't make perfect illusions and especially struggled with sounds when they first started, and I don't see how progression has anything to do with making a ball of light so I don't think this would be a resonance. It looks like the sort of thing anyone with illumination could create

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Parzival said:

It's metnioned that some of the lightweavers couldn't make perfect illusions and especially struggled with sounds when they first started, and I don't see how progression has anything to do with making a ball of light so I don't think this would be a resonance. It looks like the sort of thing anyone with illumination could create

What does memory have to do with Transformation?

Resonances aren't Blank of Blank, it's a cool bonus you get when you have two powers.

[Parzival]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What does memory have to do with Transformation?

Resonances aren't Blank of Blank, it's a cool bonus you get when you have two powers.

You have to know what something was to make it change.

I don't see how making a ball of light is a cool bonus, thats just a basic illusion. Like I said before, anyone with illumination could create something like that.

[Frustration]

Just now, Parzival said:

I don't see how making a ball of light is a cool bonus, thats just a basic illusion. Like I said before, anyone with illumination could create something like that.

I don't think the ball is a resonance.

Just now, Parzival said:

You have to know what something was to make it change.

Lightweaver's resonance is enhanced pnemonic ability, or memory, and it makes no sence in the Blank of Blank model of resonance.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

On 10/30/2021 at 9:48 AM, Cocoa said:

Don’t tell anyone. I can’t say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this. —From drawer 30-20, a particularly small emerald

- OB Chapter 85 Epigraph

The fact that this is a 'particularly' small emerald, the secrecy of the person writing, I think we can be sure that this radiant was a  corrupted truthwatcher.

 

I think it's more likely that uncorrupted truthwatchers can see the spiritual ideal version of people( what they could be),  their 'true' self. Which is prolly why they are called 'truthwatchers'.

For example, When renarin heals Adolin, he gives Adolin a vision of his perfect self. He does the same thing with Moash, with also the surge of illumination and this time in full control. I think those can be done by any truthwatcher

But actual future sight, the one he demonstrated to Dalinar, where he gets visions, is purely Sja Anat's effect.

I don't think any other corrupted radiant spren will give futuresight tho

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

The fact that this is a 'particularly' small emerald, the secrecy of the person writing, I think we can be sure that this radiant was a  corrupted truthwatcher.

Not really, by all indication Sja-anat was only able to corrupt Radiant spren recently.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not really, by all indication Sja-anat was only able to corrupt Radiant spren recently.

Do we actually know that this is recent? Or could it be be that the process is a lot easier now because of something (BAM or Honor's death)

Because I find the idea that there were 10-20 truthwatchers that could see the future for over 2000 years and somehow it's still believed to be from the enemy. That is very unlikely to me.

And the knights radiant were especially afraid of sja-anat. So they might have Guessed that this was possible