Odium's way out of the contract, from his point of view

[+Crossen]

Now what is the most clean way for Odium to get out of the contract all together? Well the most obvious way is to have the contract rewritten in his favor or nullified altogether. It is pretty obvious that Dalinar, the current stand-in/contract holder for Honor, will not allow this to happen. I also think that the books are leading to Dalinar eventually ascending to Honor in book 5.

We get the famous "we killed you" from Odium in Oathbringer which leads us to believe that Dalinar is coming close to becoming Honor. We also have various instances in RoW where Rayse is stated to be "afraid" or cautious of Dalinar. There is also the scene where Kaladin speaks the 4th ideal, but someone other than the Stormfather accepts the words making us think that Dalinar has replaced the Stormfather as the oath acceptor.

What have we and Taravangian learned through the books?

1. Taravangian has learned of Rayse's experiences as Odium once becoming a Shard.

2. To ascend to a Shard one must attract the Shard by fully possessing the Shard's intent. This is why Taravangian could only ascend on his dumbest day, when he was most passionate.

3. Taravangian most likely knows of the other Shard's that make themselves known, like Harmony.

4. Nightblood can kill a Shard's vessel.

Taravangian has probably put the pieces together and figured out that if he is on both sides of the contract, then he can nullify it all together. How can he do this? By holding the Shards of both Odium and Honor, of course. He can pick Szeth as his champion and have him kill Dalinar with Nightblood once Dalinar has fully ascended. The Honor Shard is then dropped and will choose someone who has the greatest honorable intent. Now in Taravangian's point of view who is the most honorable man in the whole cosmere? Well himself of course. But we as the readers know that the Shard will be attracted to a different vessel: Kaladin.

Quote

He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear! 

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

41 minutes ago, CROSSENuUP said:

Now in Taravangian's point of view who is the most honorable man in the whole cosmere? Well himself of course.

I highly doubt he views himself as a fit for Honor. RoW 66:

Quote

“No, my friend,” Taravangian said. “A monarch cannot make such oaths and expect to be able to keep them. He must realize that a greater need might arise at any time.”

“If so, it’s impossible for a king to be a moral man.”

“Or perhaps you can be moral and still break oaths.”

“No,” Dalinar said. “No, oaths are part of what define morality, Taravangian. A good man must strive to accomplish the things he’s committed to do.”

“Spoken like a true son of Tanavast,” Taravangian said, clasping his hands. “And I believe you, Dalinar. I believe you think exactly what you say. You are a man of Honor, raised to it through a life of his religion—which you might be upending, but it retains its grip on your mind.

“I wish I could commend that. Perhaps there was another way out of this. Perhaps there was another solution. But it wouldn’t be found in your oaths, my friend. And it would not involve a coalition of noble leaders. It would involve the sort of business with which you were once so familiar.”

[+Crossen]

From the last line of your quote there:

Quote

"It would involve the sort of business with which you were once so familiar.”

So... war? The combination of Honor and Odium?

[Quick Ben he/him]

4 hours ago, CROSSENuUP said:

From the last line of your quote there:

So... war? The combination of Honor and Odium?

I might be the only one, but i fail to see how Odium + Honour = War.

[+Crossen]

9 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

I might be the only one, but i fail to see how Odium + Honour = War.

The Rhythm of War is the combination of the tones of Odium and Honor.

[Quick Ben he/him]

14 hours ago, CROSSENuUP said:

The Rhythm of War is the combination of the tones of Odium and Honor.

I know thats what it says in the book, just don't think it makes sense, esp when people reference the Odium and Honour shard combining to make a War shard

[hskeeter]

Sorry but Honor is shattered, so there is no shard to be had.  One would have to collect all the pieces and put them back together to bring back the shard of Honor, and I am fairly sure Cultivation has some of Honor's splinters.

[jamesbondsmith He/him]

@CROSSENuUP @Quick Ben I've said before in other threads how problematic i think it is for Honor and Odium to become War. Also, I thought it was obvious that the Rhythm was called 'War' because the two who discovered it were on opposite sides of a war. Sort of like the Christmas soccer matches in the trenches of WW1, they came together despite their differences and will probably go right back to killing each other at the next opportunity.

As for the main point of the thread, Todd has already proven to be somewhat arbitrary with regards to other things. He considers himself a saviour despite sacrificing thousands as Taravangian before becoming a shard, and Odium's shtick of 'yeah nah I'm not the god of hate I'm actually the god of passion' means that the shard is possibly willing to pretend it is something it isn't.

As has been pointed out, Taravangian was able to become Odium on a day of pure emotion, and he has very few of those (i.e. not a 'passionate' person every moment of the day). I feel like he can be a generally sneaky bastard but keep his word when it counts and become Honor. Not super likely, but it's possible.

He doesn't even have to take up the shard. A well timed shanking can solve the problem without a shard being present, or he could just splinter the shard again.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

12 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Also, I thought it was obvious that the Rhythm was called 'War' because the two who discovered it were on opposite sides of a war.

I mean, no, not really (well, probably an IRL thing behind it somewhat, but that's not at all the in-world reason). RoW 76:

Quote

“I can name this rhythm: the Rhythm of War. Odium and Honor mixed together. I had not known it before today, but I recognize its name; I know this as surely as I know my own. Each rhythm carries with it an understanding of its meaning.”

[Aspiring Writer]

On 4/30/2021 at 7:23 AM, hskeeter said:

Sorry but Honor is shattered, so there is no shard to be had.  One would have to collect all the pieces and put them back together to bring back the shard of Honor, and I am fairly sure Cultivation has some of Honor's splinters.

First of, splintered, second off, BS has confirmed you can still remake the Shard of Honor, Dalinar would just need more pieces, like maybe the Honorblades or reach more oaths, thirdly, why do you think Cultivation has any of Honor's splinters? 

As for the Honor + Odium = War discussion, remember that Odium means Hatred directed at someone because of their actions, so a justified Hatred, combined with Honor can very well lead to war. You would feel Honor bound to respond to this focus of your hatred, which could lead to war. 

 

And for the Szeth being Odium's champion theory, the champion must be willing, so no, Szeth will not be his champion, try again.

@jamesbondsmithWhy would you consider it problematic?

Edited May 1, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Bejarden he/him]

17 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

And for the Szeth being Odium's champion theory, the champion must be willing, so no, Szeth will not be his champion, try again.

 

If Dalinar told Szeth to be Odiums Champion and he agreed, and Odium also picked him...

Would that be considered Willing?

[Aspiring Writer]

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

If Dalinar told Szeth to be Odiums Champion and he agreed, and Odium also picked him...

Would that be considered Willing?

I think that would work, but why would that ever happen?

[Bejarden he/him]

2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I think that would work, but why would that ever happen?

If Dalinar wants to lose to give Singers a place to live, but doesn’t want to become Odiums slave so he somehow gets Szeth to kill him with Nightblood...

One of my many crackpot, tinfoil hat Champion theories

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

If Dalinar wants to lose to give Singers a place to live, but doesn’t want to become Odiums slave so he somehow gets Szeth to kill him with Nightblood...

One of my many crackpot, tinfoil hat Champion theories

Odium could potentially order Szeth to not use Nightblood to prevent that.

[Bejarden he/him]

Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

Odium could potentially order Szeth to not use Nightblood to prevent that.

I don’t know about that... 

Once you appoint a champion can you dictate his weapon of choice?

This is all of course really unlikely since, why the storms would Odium pick Szeth, but it’s a possibility in my eyes

[Quick Ben he/him]

On 5/1/2021 at 9:01 AM, Aspiring Writer said:

As for the Honor + Odium = War discussion, remember that Odium means Hatred directed at someone because of their actions, so a justified Hatred, combined with Honor can very well lead to war. You would feel Honor bound to respond to this focus of your hatred, which could lead to war. 

War still doesn't make sense, in the situation above the more likely name would be conflict or zealot.

[Infinity Sliver]

23 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

War still doesn't make sense, in the situation above the more likely name would be conflict or zealot.

Yea i kinda understand but it is what it is. Although I do think Intent also comes into play,for example,I think Unity can be another name for the Honor Odium combo cause it could be another way of perceiving the combo.

[Procrastination she/her]

Actually, Taravodium might not want to find a way out of the deal. From his perspective, now he can save the world. He likely feels he can't do that if he breaks his promise, since he may be Splintered. He might be okay with killing Dalinar for the "greater good". His definition of a monarch is someone who stains themselves with blood so that others don't have to. He might consider being Odium to be the same thing.

[exilarchy he/him]

On 5/3/2021 at 9:21 AM, Quick Ben said:

War still doesn't make sense, in the situation above the more likely name would be conflict or zealot.

Both Athena and Ares are patrons of war in Greek mythology, but the types of war that they represent are polar opposites. Athena is patron of strategic, disciplined, justified war, not unlike Honor. Ares is patron of violent, bloody, and chaotic war, not unlike Odium. They both are described as patrons of war, though. Their domains combine to cover both of the major aspects of war. Similarly, the intents of Odium and Honor overlap in the fact that they hold up the two different aspects of war. Honor's conception of war can't exist without the violence and bloodshed that Odium represents. Odium's conception of war can't exist without the discipline and strategy that Honor represents. War comes from mixing Honor's order and structure and Odium's hatred and violence.

 

As an aside, I made an interesting (although probably not novel) connection when analogizing Honor to Athena. One of the epithets that Athena is often given in Homer's works is glaukopis, which translates to "bright-eyed". It's interesting that users of Honor's invested art (yes, Cultivation is involved too) develop bright, glowing eyes.

[lipat97]

The way Taravangian gets out of the contract is with a bondsmith. It was already shown that a bondsmith can change who the contract applies to, and it was shown that Nightblood can sever Connections. 
 

This is also relevant to the Heralds and Thaidakar being Connected to their system, Bondsmiths change the bonds of reality themselves. 

[Unite Them he/him]

On 4/29/2021 at 1:58 PM, Quick Ben said:

I might be the only one, but i fail to see how Odium + Honour = War.

That is exactly what Rhythm of War tells us.  The combination of Honor and Passion is War.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Unite Them said:

That is exactly what Rhythm of War tells us.  The combination of Honor and Passion is War.

Honor and Odium, don't confuse the two

[Unite Them he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Honor and Odium, don't confuse the two

Alright whatever I'll use your word choice. Honor and Odium.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Unite Them said:

Alright whatever I'll use your word choice. Honor and Odium.

Brandon's word choice.

Odium is a range of emotion, but first and foremost is hatred, fury, Odium.