The True Meaning of Odium

[nehalem]

In the Stormlight Archive there has been the argument over what Odium means.

Rayse insisted it meant Passion.  While most other contended it meant Hatred.

Now looking at how dictionary.com defines it as:

Quote

intense hatred or dislike, especially toward a person or thing regarded as contemptible, despicable, or repugnant.

So its not really just hatred, but more like justified hatred of someone/something that deserves it.

Which I find interesting after a few quotes from Rhythm of War after Taravangian ascended.

Quote

Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion.  You are perfect.  I am yours.

Quote

So Taravangian knew the cosmere was in chaos.  Ruled by fools.  Presided over by broken gods.

And Now, Taravangian was going to save them all.

So it seems like Taravangian is really becoming the dictionary definition of Odium.  He wants to make war on those he regards as contemptible.

[Frustration]

I like this, Odium is describes as divine wrath, Justified vengence, the anger at betrayal.

[Honorless he/him]

Sja-Anat talks about the nature of Odium too, she also sees it as conflict, debate, disagreement

[+mdross81 he/him]

This idea of wrath directed toward those viewed as contemptible fits with how I’ve been viewing Odium: as that part of divinity that enforces the infallibility of god. I remember doing some research on this a while ago because the concept of divine hate didn’t make sense to me.

And what I found tended to relate to the idea that god could select certain peoples as his own and bless them, while designating others as contemptible or disfavored. Not because of anything they did, but just to prove the point that he was god and could choose to favor one group and dole out wrath to the other because he’s god. To allow the disfavored group success/happiness would prove god wrong, which would potentially undo all creation (basically the plot of Dogma).

Once I thought of Odium this way, this one line from Frost’s letter to Hoid made more sense:

Quote

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

This potentially recasts the lines in RoW about how the power of Odium (as opposed to the mind controlling it) liked questions. Why might the power like questions? Because it gives an opportunity to prove a point; that questioning god will get you a heaping serving of wrath.

[+Child of Hodor]

17 hours ago, nehalem said:

In the Stormlight Archive there has been the argument over what Odium means.

Rayse insisted it meant Passion.  While most other contended it meant Hatred.

Now looking at how dictionary.com defines it as:

So its not really just hatred, but more like justified hatred of someone/something that deserves it.

Which I find interesting after a few quotes from Rhythm of War after Taravangian ascended.

So it seems like Taravangian is really becoming the dictionary definition of Odium.  He wants to make war on those he regards as contemptible.

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

I like this, Odium is describes as divine wrath, Justified vengence, the anger at betrayal.

I agree he has embraced the full Shard which is mostly anger, perhaps "righteous anger" in it's original context. Rayse was in denial about it and that's why he didn't control the Shard well, leading to it developing a mind of its own. 

There is passion in there, Taravangian senses all sorts of emotions when he picks it up. But hatred of others for what they have done is the primary, overwhelming core of it. This lines up with what Dalinar experiences when he first encounters Odium in OB, a plethora of emotions are briefly encountered before the purple-black flame of hatred overwhelms Dalinar. 

I've wondered if the other emotions serve as fuel for the hatred. Odium is the void after all, vacuuming up emotions from others. 

[+robardin he/him]

On 3/2/2021 at 2:49 PM, Frustration said:

I like this, Odium is describes as divine wrath, Justified vengence, the anger at betrayal.

Well then, so much for the singers "turning away" from Odium then, eh? What could be more of a reason for "feeling justified in outrage at betrayal and injustice done" than taking in off-world refugees out of kindness, only to see them break out of their reservation to seize control of your entire world, eventually stealing your identities and minds to commoditize your people as chattel slaves for millennia?

What I find interesting is that the two Fused who we saw firsthand in RoW decide, if not to reject Odium at least to break away from being fully committed to victory under his banner, Raboniel and Leshwi - they both remember from before the original outbreak of the conflict (I'm not sure all of the Fused do, though many or most of them must).

I suspect that version of What Happened To Start It All, as recorded on the Eila Stele (and essentially what I paraphrased earlier), is a kind of propaganda angle created by Team Odium to get generations of singers to await their return between Desolations, and to surrender their bodies and to fight for them again when they came back.

In which case, Leshwi's immediate reaction to seeing that Venli had bonded a spren should be pretty telling as to Maybe What Really Happened. Not "how can you forget what was done to us after Honor and the spren betrayed us to go for the humans", but that the spren had finally forgiven them (the singers).

Edited March 4, 2021 by robardin

[Could Be Fire]

9 hours ago, robardin said:

Well then, so much for the singers "turning away" from Odium then, eh? What could be more of a reason for "feeling justified in outrage at betrayal and injustice done" than taking in off-world refugees out of kindness, only to see them break out of their reservation to seize control of your entire world, eventually stealing your identities and minds to commoditize your people as chattel slaves for millennia?

Because what Rayse wants is not the same as Odium's pure intent. They're a better match than Ati and Ruin, but Rayse seems like someone who'd be happier with a shard-like Dominion (as some other thread mentioned).

In RoW Venli comments at least one point the power within Odium is responding positively to her arguments while the vessel is dismissing her. 

If Odium's intent is truly "divine wrath, Justified vengence, the anger at betrayal" (as @Frustration calls it) then maybe Rayse so invested in the Singers because it's the best way for him to use his power and eventually get himself free. Like how Leras had to figure out how a complicated plan to take out Ruin while embodying Preservation. 

It sort of makes sense, to explain how/why Singers originally bonded to him. We know that Odium was on the side of the humans originally, but that something happened and the result was his being bound the Braize and humanity turning to Honor/Cultivation while the Singers were left in the dust. I would be surprised if that they found common ground in their betrayal by Honor/Humanity to form their original alliance. 

[Display Name]

The lines right before the quote about Taravangian being being the perfect vessel for the power are :

Quote

 Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him.

Hatred is part of it, but the power also loves fear, shame, awe, and bravery. The power is all emotions.  Taravangian was never characterized as extremely hateful when he was stupid, but compassionate.  He only reads the words the surgeon said at his birth when he's smart and has no emotion.  When he's filled with emotion he feels bad about how he treats the people around him when he's smart.  The day he ascended he was perfectly emotional and the only hatred he felt was briefly and directed at himself.  The emotion that overwhelms him and lets him kill Rayse (and it's repeated several times to make it clear) is bravery.  He had reasons and excuses to hate Odium, so it would've been possible to write it so that Taravangian is full of hatred while killing Rayse.  Szeth is also right there and if anyone at that moment perfectly represents Odium it would be Szeth.

The scene where Taravangian is trying to plan how to save the world and is overcome with fury ends with a visit from Cultivation and she tells him: “Come. Let me teach you about what you’ve been given. I realize the power is overwhelming, but you can control it. You can do better than Rayse ever did.”  Cultivation wouldn't orchestrate to have a capable vessel take over a power that only wants to kill her.  Rayse was broken at the end by losing Dalinar and being forced to agree to a contest of champions.  For Cultivation, a broken Odium is better than a crafty Odium, but Passion is much better than the other two.  It ends with Taravangian thinking "You have no idea what you have done.", but I think that's intentionally misleading and more ambiguous than it sounds.

There's also Roshar itself.  It was created by Adonalsium with three moons (green, blue, and violet).  The Eila Stele has the line "For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind."  If that was what the Singers worshiped before Cultivation and Honor came along you have the three parts of itself Adonalsium used to create Roshar. The green moon and stone for Cultivation and the blue moon and wind for Honor.  Odium is associated with violet, but odium doesn't represent spren.  On his final day Taravangian had such strong emotions that spren were swarming around him.  If he were Passion he would fill the place of the god of spren.

 

 

On 3/4/2021 at 9:03 AM, robardin said:

I suspect that version of What Happened To Start It All, as recorded on the Eila Stele (and essentially what I paraphrased earlier), is a kind of propaganda angle created by Team Odium to get generations of singers to await their return between Desolations, and to surrender their bodies and to fight for them again when they came back.

The Eila Stele isn't a dry historic record,  it's a polemic telling the other Singers to hate the Humans and reads as if Odium had a large part of writing it.   All we could be reading is Singer Mein Kampf with no other context and deciding that Gemhearted Hitler did nothing wrong.  For all we know the Humans didn't leave the Shinovar until well after the first desolation and the past started to be forgotten.  It's entirely possible that the humans who wound up on Roshar were the victims of the ones on Ashyn and the First Desolation was the Singers who would go on to become the Fused attacking the Shinovar refugee camp.  The fused named El was stripped of his title and rhythms for insisting the humans shouldn't be killed while Jasnah is the only human we hear talking about genocide.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Display Name

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, Display Name said:

Hatred is part of it, but the power also loves fear, shame, awe, and bravery. The power is all emotions.

A few other quotes on this topic:

Dalinar seeing its essence:

Quote

It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.

It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.

It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.

And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt.

Sja-anat commenting on the Vessel-Shard conflict:

Quote

You question? Do not question.

“I will not question.” However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion.

Taravangian's Ascension (you already posted part of this):

Quote

It killed the person holding that power, however, which left a hole. A need. A … vacuum, like a gemstone suddenly without Stormlight. It reached out, and Taravangian felt a distinct Connection to it.

Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him.

His soul vibrated.

 Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours.

Taravangian describing the power he holds:

Quote

In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

Edited March 9, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Frustration]

Looks like @LewsTherinTelescope is taking @RShara's job

3 hours ago, Display Name said:

The power is all emotions.

No, it really isn't, it can't be, otherwise Devotion, Valor, Wimsy, and Ambition couldn't be Shards.

3 hours ago, Display Name said:

There's also Roshar itself.  It was created by Adonalsium with three moons (green, blue, and violet).  The Eila Stele has the line "For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind."  If that was what the Singers worshiped before Cultivation and Honor came along you have the three parts of itself Adonalsium used to create Roshar. The green moon and stone for Cultivation and the blue moon and wind for Honor.  Odium is associated with violet, but odium doesn't represent spren.  On his final day Taravangian had such strong emotions that spren were swarming around him.  If he were Passion he would fill the place of the god of spren.

The spren are made of Cultivation and Honor, 

Spren for the Nightwatcher, Wind for the Stormfather, and Stone for Roshar itself.

[Karger he/him]

I would probably consider him some kind of intense disgust.  An intense feeling of wrongness like how Lirin described the villager's sense of outrage in WoKs.  They felt things were wrong so they acted despite no evidence that doing so would result in anything useful.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, it really isn't, it can't be, otherwise Devotion, Valor, Wimsy, and Ambition couldn't be Shards.

I don't know that I'd really categorize Ambition as an "emotion", myself. Whimsy isn't really a "passionate emotion" in the same way either. And Devotion encompasses more than just emotions as well, though it certainly involves them to a large degree. (Valor being its own Shard is actually kinda confusing to me though, as Odium and Honor together would seem to cover it.)

[Frustration]

22 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't know that I'd really categorize Ambition as an "emotion", myself.

I would classify it as both an Emotion, and a personality trait, but there is room to argue.

25 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(Valor being its own Shard is actually kinda confusing to me though, as Odium and Honor together would seem to cover it.)

I have had that thought so many times

[Could Be Fire]

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(Valor being its own Shard is actually kinda confusing to me though, as Odium and Honor together would seem to cover it.)

I have had that thought so many times

Why we have the shards we do is a big question. Brandon does say that "when I split Adonalsium I said, I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." which implies that these are all the different pieces of his personality/nature. So it might just be that Odium is hatred/passion, Honor is order/rules, and Valor is courage? There's some overlap in wording, but each has different connotations. Like Dominion/Devotion. 

But I also buy into the theory that the intents/motivations/emotions of the people doing the shattering had a pretty significant role in what shards were created, which explains why there's overlap. There's a WOB that different shards could have been created under different circumstances and that it was not random who got which shard. 

[RShara she/her]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Looks like @LewsTherinTelescope is taking @RShara's job

No, it really isn't, it can't be, otherwise Devotion, Valor, Wimsy, and Ambition couldn't be Shards.

The spren are made of Cultivation and Honor, 

Spren for the Nightwatcher, Wind for the Stormfather, and Stone for Roshar itself.

Hey.

Also, I'm firmly in the "Odium is hatred and fury, with only touches of other emotions" camp, and LewsTherinTelescope seems to be arguing the opposite of that. You can find lots of my obligatory, "Odium is NOT Passion, darn it" posts

7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't know that I'd really categorize Ambition as an "emotion", myself. Whimsy isn't really a "passionate emotion" in the same way either. And Devotion encompasses more than just emotions as well, though it certainly involves them to a large degree. (Valor being its own Shard is actually kinda confusing to me though, as Odium and Honor together would seem to cover it.)

Ambition can be interpreted as passion for advancement and improvement. Devotion is confirmed to be Love. Dominion could be passion for victory. Lots of the other Shards have a lot of passion associated with them, so Odium being largely passion just doesn't work out. It'd be passion without ambition and love at the very least, which would leave it pretty stale already.

I'm going to emphasize this outside perspective on the true power of Odium

Quote

In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

Fury was italicized in the book.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

11 minutes ago, RShara said:

Also, I'm firmly in the "Odium is hatred and fury, with only touches of other emotions" camp, and LewsTherinTelescope seems to be arguing the opposite of that. You can find lots of my obligatory, "Odium is NOT Passion, darn it" posts

Yeah, you and I definitely have different views on this

15 minutes ago, RShara said:

Ambition can be interpreted as passion for advancement and improvement.

I would not categorize this as an "emotion", myself, though admittedly the term is rather hard for me to define.

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

Devotion is confirmed to be Love.

Agreed, though Brandon's also said it's similar to Subservience, so as I said:

7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Devotion encompasses more than just emotions as well, though it certainly involves them to a large degree.

 

13 minutes ago, RShara said:

Dominion could be passion for victory.

I mean, that one's explicitly described to be part of Odium when Dalinar sees the power, though I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it's also in Dominion, as that does sound like it'd fit there too, and I can't imagine the Shards having no overlap, with the Intents we know.

18 minutes ago, RShara said:

I'm going to emphasize this outside perspective on the true power of Odium

The same one that says "human emotion" and "passion" as well?

I do not by any means disagree with the fact that things like hatred and fury make up the largest portion and majority of the Shard. But I don't agree that the others make up any particularly insignificant portion.

[RShara she/her]

4 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, you and I definitely have different views on this

I would not categorize this as an "emotion", myself, though admittedly the term is rather hard for me to define.

Agreed, though Brandon's also said it's similar to Subservience, so as I said:

 

I mean, that one's explicitly described to be part of Odium when Dalinar sees the power, though I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it's also in Dominion, as that does sound like it'd fit there too, and I can't imagine the Shards having no overlap, with the Intents we know.

The same one that says "human emotion" and "passion" as well?

I do not by any means disagree with the fact that things like hatred and fury make up the largest portion and majority of the Shard. But I don't agree that the others make up any particularly insignificant portion.

I'll also add in this section

Quote

Next, she used a diamond infused with Stormlight instead of a candle. It worked the same, splitting into components of light, but with a larger band of blue. Voidlight did the same, though the band of violet was enormous, and the other colors mere blips. That was strange, as her research indicated different colors of light should only make bands brighter or weaker, not increase their size.

I see the light as a visual representation of the Intent. The violet is the fury/hatred, and everything else is barely present.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 minutes ago, RShara said:

I see the light as a visual representation of the Intent. The violet is the fury/hatred, and everything else is barely present.

What do you think the bands in LL and SL represent, in that case? I've never gotten the impression they had particularly broad Intents beyond the core idea. But I suppose we haven't seen their power described yet.

(I'm still curious if there's anything odd up with Voidlight, tbh, because while I am strongly in the "Shardic colors aren't a big deal beyond narrative convenience" camp, it is odd it looks so different from literally anything else Odium. No idea what would be up with it if so, though.)

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, RShara said:

Hey.

Also, I'm firmly in the "Odium is hatred and fury, with only touches of other emotions" camp, and LewsTherinTelescope seems to be arguing the opposite of that. You can find lots of my obligatory, "Odium is NOT Passion, darn it" posts

Is that not,

Huh, I read that as being specifically hatred supporting.

My bad,

[Display Name]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, it really isn't, it can't be, otherwise Devotion, Valor, Wimsy, and Ambition couldn't be Shards.

The spren are made of Cultivation and Honor, 

Spren for the Nightwatcher, Wind for the Stormfather, and Stone for Roshar itself.

I worded that terribly and likely won't do much better now.  The power isn't really emotions themselves, but the overwhelming passion behind a fervent emotion and is concerned will all emotions and not just hatred.  Devotion is love, but it's more a deliberate kind of love than something that would be described as passionate love.  Valor could be a synonym for bravery, but I would consider it more restrained (not really the right word).  Valor would better describe a soldier standing in formation holding their spear and not breaking rank when a stronger force is charging down on them than the passionate bravery in the image of the viking berserker charging into battle.

Most of the spren were already there before Cultivation and Honor.  Adonalsium created a table setting for three.  Cultivation and Honor came along, sat down, and put their coats and bags on the empty seat.

 

It's much easier to get people to hate something passionately than it is to get them to care passionately about something and that's the trap Rayse fell into when he took up the power of passion and became Odium.  The Boon/Curse that Cultivation gave Taravangian wasn't a spectrum between emotion and intelligence because smart Taravangian wasn't an emotionless robot.  He had the contempt and fury when he was smart and when he was emotional he had the passion minus the odium part.  Smart Taravangian (Odium Jr.) failed to best Odium and it wasn't until both ends of his spectrum worked together (Passion Jr.) did he beat Odium.  So he learned the lesson Cultivation was trying to teach and became "someone who could bear this power with honor." and wouldn't let it rule him and drive him to destroy as it did to Rayse.

@LewsTherinTelescope 's quote from Sja-anat about the power liking questions and arguments is in line with the Hoid and Taravangian conversation.  Hoid knows Rayse would never ask his opinion just as Taravangian, on days he was smart and odious enough to translate the diagram, didn't want the opinion of the contemptible stupid people around him.  Someone who didn't follow Rayse in becoming Odium might not think everyone is too far below him to think of anything worthwhile and might speak in a "soft and thoughtful" manner.  In that chapter if the storyteller gets everyone looking in the wrong direction, like at Hoid's memories and Breaths, the audience won't pay so much attention that Hoid knowing Rayse wasn't himself and the power having something horribly wrong with it were two separate ideas.  If you're walking away from Discord, even if you knew something isn't right with the vessel, you'd be shocked if you get hit in the back by Harmony.

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, Display Name said:

It's much easier to get people to hate something passionately than it is to get them to care passionately about something and that's the trap Rayse fell into when he took up the power of passion and became Odium.  The Boon/Curse that Cultivation gave Taravangian wasn't a spectrum between emotion and intelligence because smart Taravangian wasn't an emotionless robot.  He had the contempt and fury when he was smart and when he was emotional he had the passion minus the odium part.  Smart Taravangian (Odium Jr.) failed to best Odium and it wasn't until both ends of his spectrum worked together (Passion Jr.) did he beat Odium.  So he learned the lesson Cultivation was trying to teach and became "someone who could bear this power with honor." and wouldn't let it rule him and drive him to destroy as it did to Rayse.

Taravangian calls it untamed Fury, not passion, the only person who called Odium, passion, is Rayse, everyone else, Hoid, Frost, Taravangian, Dalinar etc all refer to it as first and foremost, Hatred, Divine Wrath, Untamed Fury, etc.

[Display Name]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Taravangian calls it untamed Fury, not passion, the only person who called Odium, passion, is Rayse, everyone else, Hoid, Frost, Taravangian, Dalinar etc all refer to it as first and foremost, Hatred, Divine Wrath, Untamed Fury, etc.

Taravangian does call it passion, but that's not really the point since, most deeply, he sees fury.  Dalinar sees other things in it.  Why would the shard of hatred and fury have a bit of "the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy" inside of it?  Wrath, fury, and hatred are the easiest things to inflame with passion, so most deeply it will be those.  Cultivation told Taravangian it was a dangerous power and she had to change him into someone who could control it. If Harmony's power were to be described there would be bits of harmony, but most deeply it would be discord.  Harmony struggles to control it just as Taravangian will and his wanting Hoid's opinion shows he's succeeding to some extent.

[hskeeter]

Lets not forget that Odium potentially could have parts of Ambition, Dominion, Devotion, and Honor in him as well due to the fact that Odium caused them all to splinter.  From what I can gather from Histories and such; Odium most likely has more of Ambition due to tearing parts off of her, an unknown amount of Dominion and Devotion, and most likely very little of Honor due to Honor taking a long time to splinter and giving most of his splinters to the Stormfather.  

[Bejarden he/him]

He intentionally did not take any of their investiture as to not have any foreign influence on him