Something is Wrong with Odium's Forces

[Theoryspren]

Nergaoul is red according to the coppermind https://coppermind.net/wiki/Nergaoul

While every other unmade that we have seen, either in the physical realm or the cognitive has been black.

Ashertmarn - black - https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ashertmarn

Re-Shephir - black - https://coppermind.net/wiki/Re-Shephir

Sja-Anat - black - https://coppermind.net/wiki/Sja-anat

But Yelig-nar is different while all of his form is black in shadesmar, when he enters a host in the physical realm the eyes of the host turn red.

Note: While we haven't seen Dia-Gonarthis, he is sometimes called the black fisher.

But red investiture in the Cosmere is corupted investiture. But a lot of Odiums forces are red. I would like to thank 

 for pointing this pattern among voidspren and Fused alike as well. Some of his spren are golden but the others are red, Ulim, stormspren, and Fused eyes.

In Oathbringer there is even a quote where Pattern is translatting an Ashspren for the hero's and says, "There are many varieties, she says. Some of golden light, others are red shadows. Curious yes."

 

In all all lot of Odium's own forces are red  which means they are corrupted, then some spren are golden, and then finally most of his Unmade are black, but Odium's own investiture is golden and violet not black (as black is ruins color) so what is happening. And why are all but a few of his forces wrong.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Theoryspren

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Dustbringer eyes are red too, but I don’t think they’re corrupted... And Lightweavers are magenta/red-violet, which is also nearly red. It doesn’t appear to indicate corruption there either.

[Frustration]

Odium doesn't like to invest himself, so if he can corrupt other shards power he will.

[Honorless he/him]

Well it has been implied pretty heavily, some would say confirmed even, that the Unmade were normal Rosharan spren who were all Corrupted by Odium's Investiture, willingly or unwillingly.

Sja-Anat said in OB "we were made, then unmade". The Sibling said they'd become unmade if the Corruption of the Tower was completed. Raboniel concurred.

As for what's going on with Odium's colours, who knows!

Red isn't always a sign of Corruption, though it probably is, in this case.

[StanLemon]

As far as the black coloring goes, are we completely sure that in world characters aren't mistaking it as black. Voidlight looks mostly black with a tinge of violet

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

As far as the black coloring goes, are we completely sure that in world characters aren't mistaking it as black. Voidlight looks mostly black with a tinge of violet

I thought it was supposed to be Stygian Violet, basically what you see if you stare at (checks notes) green on white for a minute or so, then stare at a black background. The afterimage of the lack of lime green on black will appear to be simultaneously violet and black, which is physically impossible.

Wait, you need to stare at green? Huh.

[KSub]

6 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I thought it was supposed to be Stygian Violet, basically what you see if you stare at (checks notes) green on white for a minute or so, then stare at a black background. The afterimage of the lack of lime green on black will appear to be simultaneously violet and black, which is physically impossible.

Wait, you need to stare at green? Huh.

It's like anti-light

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, KSub said:

It's like anti-light

Hmmmmmmmmm...

[KSub]

It is interesting that some are red and some are black, even if its violet black. What makes them different?

Nergaoul is the source of the thrill, the bloodlust of battle. What could it have been before being corrupted? Maybe the instinct to protect yourself. It's said to be mostly mindless

Theres a quote from Hessia that says Ashtermarn 'is the final of the three great Mindless Unmade.' Unfortunately we don't know the other at this time. Ashertmarn is the heart of the revel, the drive to indulge in food and drink. Maybe the instinct to feed.

I think the third mindless unmade might be the drive to procreate, completing the base instincts of animals. In any case Ashertmarn is described as black so that's kind of a dead end on the colour equals corruption thing.

Edited January 27, 2021 by KSub

[+Child of Hodor]

16 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I thought it was supposed to be Stygian Violet, basically what you see if you stare at (checks notes) green on white for a minute or so, then stare at a black background. The afterimage of the lack of lime green on black will appear to be simultaneously violet and black, which is physically impossible.

Wait, you need to stare at green? Huh.

Yeah it's one of those "impossible" colors. It's an afterimage, basically. Stare at yellow and then look at black to get the effect. Which is interesting since Odium often has gold and white robes and raysium (his metal) is white-gold, like the knife Vyre uses to kill Jezrian.  As to the meaning of it, I think Brandon just thinks it's cool. It's "impossible" otherworldly, dark and foreboding. A good color for a villain.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_color

 

https://youtu.be/xJLncut79vE

[AquaRegia he/him]

19 minutes ago, KSub said:

Nergaoul is the source of the thrill, the bloodlust of battle. What could it have been before being corrupted? Maybe the instinct to protect yourself. It's said to be mostly mindless

Theres a quote from Hessia that says Ashtermarn 'is the final of the three great Mindless Unmade.' Unfortunately we don't know the other at this time.

Moelach is the third of the "Mindless Unmade".

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Moelach

[KSub]

31 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Moelach is the third of the "Mindless Unmade".

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Moelach

Hmm, it very much matches the other two in terms of how its ability manifests passively over a large area. It doesn't really compare with the other two though. I don't know how precognition can be connected to a natural instinct. Maybe it is connected to man's search for a higher power which could manifest as a connection to the spiritual realm in the cosmere. I don't know. It could just be a splinter of Odium since he seems to be connected to seeing the future.

I don't think we have a description of Moelach,  so unfortunately that doesn't further the corruption idea either way 

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

12 hours ago, KSub said:

It doesn't really compare with the other two though. I don't know how precognition can be connected to a natural instinct.

He's what gives Death Rattles right? Could the natural instinct be related to Death rather than to precog? If Moelach is corrupted from something else I almost want it to be something associated with Cultivation, since she seems to be very good at foresight.

[KSub]

11 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

He's what gives Death Rattles right? Could the natural instinct be related to Death rather than to precog? If Moelach is corrupted from something else I almost want it to be something associated with Cultivation, since she seems to be very good at foresight.

Maybe. I wouldn't say death is an instinct as much as an inevitability though.

[Rashekin he/him]

On 26/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Frustration said:

Odium doesn't like to invest himself, so if he can corrupt other shards power he will.

Personally, I find that "Odium does not want to invest" incoherent, since it is literally divided into 9 Unmade (very powerful spren, although not as powerful as Stormfather), it grants voidlight and its abilities to the Fused, it has thousands of voidspren, the Raysium like god metal, and that its rhythm is one of the rhythms of Roshar, so invested it is there. I have always thought that the Shards of Roshar are more divided (spren, lights, Heralds of Honor) than others such as Endowment or Harmony

[Frustration]

Just now, Rashekin said:

Personally, I find that "Odium does not want to invest" incoherent, since it is literally divided into 9 Unmade (very powerful spren, although not as powerful as Stormfather), it grants voidlight and its abilities to the Fused, it has thousands of voidspren, the Raysium like god metal, and that its rhythm is one of the rhythms of Roshar, so invested it is there. I have always thought that the Shards of Roshar are more divided (spren, lights, Heralds of Honor) than others such as Endowment or Harmony

It's what Brandon says about it when he's asked.

[Rashekin he/him]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's what Brandon says about it when he's asked.

I know, and it seems to me that it makes sense even up to Oathbringer, but with all the new information from RoW, it makes me quite doubtful and I honestly believe that Odium is almost as invested in the Rosharan system as Honor and Cultivation. The biggest clue to this may be the Rhythms, but we'll see what Brandon will do with all of this in the future

[StanLemon]

I think it's true that he doesn't want to Invest, and therefore weaken himself. But I think over the millenia he's had to give one little concession after concession and after so much time it's added up to him being Invested in the planet

[Orlion Blight he/him]

Here's a thought: 

What if a Shard is able to more easily leave a world if all or most of its investure into the planet is corrupted? 

So, picture that Regular Investing into a Planet (trademark pending) yields what are essentially chains to a planet, whereas Corrupted Investure into a Planet (all rights reserved) yields rusty, brittler chains? It's still probably difficult to break that connection, but might be far easier to do so. 

This would explain why a bunch of "Odium's Investure" is red instead of gold. That might also be connected to why it appeared as if his vessel was unstable and having trouble choosing containing the shard's power in his last meeting with Dalinar.

[Leuthie]

4 hours ago, Rashekin said:

Personally, I find that "Odium does not want to invest" incoherent, since it is literally divided into 9 Unmade (very powerful spren, although not as powerful as Stormfather), it grants voidlight and its abilities to the Fused, it has thousands of voidspren, the Raysium like god metal, and that its rhythm is one of the rhythms of Roshar, so invested it is there. I have always thought that the Shards of Roshar are more divided (spren, lights, Heralds of Honor) than others such as Endowment or Harmony

The Unmade were among the first things Odium created, most likely. Instead of using all his own Investiture, he corrupted existing spren. He wasn't planning on sticking around. Kill a Shard or two and split.

Then Bondsmith and Honor bound him to Braize. A few thousand years of struggle have led to a bit more Investment in Roshar than he was planning.

It's not incoherent. It's the difference between theory and practice. In theory, Odium doesn't want to Invest himself too deeply so as to get stuck in a single system. In practice, he was stuck anyway.

[KSub]

15 hours ago, Leuthie said:

The Unmade were among the first things Odium created, most likely. Instead of using all his own Investiture, he corrupted existing spren. He wasn't planning on sticking around. Kill a Shard or two and split.

Then Bondsmith and Honor bound him to Braize. A few thousand years of struggle have led to a bit more Investment in Roshar than he was planning.

It's not incoherent. It's the difference between theory and practice. In theory, Odium doesn't want to Invest himself too deeply so as to get stuck in a single system. In practice, he was stuck anyway.

This.

Odium doesn't want to invest because once he's invested he basically has to leave that investiture when he moves on to destroy the next shard. He's been corrupting things because it requires him to give up very little. But once he became trapped on Roshar he realized he was going to need to invest to end this. Then the Heralds pulled the old switcheroo and left Taln on Ashyn. When Odium realized he wasn't going to break he had to invest further. The reason Odium now has a rhythm is because of how much he has invested. That investiture comes in the form of the Everstorm.

At this point Odium basically is invested as much as the other shards. In his mind once he's won he will start divesting from Roshar. That's going to take a lot longer than he wanted but its his only option, and he's immortal so what's time?

[bmcclure7]

On 1/26/2021 at 7:31 AM, Theoryspren said:

Nergaoul is red according to the coppermind https://coppermind.net/wiki/Nergaoul

While every other unmade that we have seen, either in the physical realm or the cognitive has been black.

Ashertmarn - black - https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ashertmarn

Re-Shephir - black - https://coppermind.net/wiki/Re-Shephir

Sja-Anat - black - https://coppermind.net/wiki/Sja-anat

But Yelig-nar is different while all of his form is black in shadesmar, when he enters a host in the physical realm the eyes of the host turn red.

Note: While we haven't seen Dia-Gonarthis, he is sometimes called the black fisher.

But red investiture in the Cosmere is corupted investiture. But a lot of Odiums forces are red. I would like to thank 

 for pointing this pattern among voidspren and Fused alike as well. Some of his spren are golden but the others are red, Ulim, stormspren, and Fused eyes.

In Oathbringer there is even a quote where Pattern is translatting an Ashspren for the hero's and says, "There are many varieties, she says. Some of golden light, others are red shadows. Curious yes."

 

In all all lot of Odium's own forces are red  which means they are corrupted, then some spren are golden, and then finally most of his Unmade are black, but Odium's own investiture is golden and violet not black (as black is ruins color) so what is happening. And why are all but a few of his forces wrong.

Red  Does not necessarily mean corruption. 

 

For one thing in oathbringer we see a number of non-red corrupted lesser Spren. 

 

 As you pointed out the unmade are corrupted but most of them Are not red. 

 

Ulim  is red but we know he cannot be corrupted Spren .  Sense according to oathbringer  Only lesser Spren  Could be corrupted until recently.

[alder24]

52 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Red  Does not necessarily mean corruption. 

For one thing in oathbringer we see a number of non-red corrupted lesser Spren. 

As you pointed out the unmade are corrupted but most of them Are not red. 

Ulim  is red but we know he cannot be corrupted Spren .  Sense according to oathbringer  Only lesser Spren  Could be corrupted until recently.

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Edited January 27, 2024 by alder24