Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[BenduLuke he/him]

41 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You forget the law allowing a noble man to bed anyone he wanted.

What evidence is there for the Underworld inheriting their tactics?

Renarin was Oath three, just like everyone else, and on top of that it says in the text that his healing was better.

I'm getting tired of you calling information we've had for years 'unsupported' if you can't find the WoB ask me and I'll show it

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016)

That bolding isn't even mine.

 

Do you have any idea how important Terrain is? If you can shape the ground any way you choose then you have zero risk of inhibiting yourself.

And why would the ground be invested?

yes and over time as they mix with regular people they dilute the genes for allomancy. TLR was only mildly interested in restricting mistings.

It is just obvious to me that they were using military tactics, but if you don't see it, you don't see it.

yes and Kaladin's flying was better, and Jasna's soul casting was better, so Renarin is especially talented at progression.

Great at some point they may have lasers and kill themselves trying to use them, but not yet, not even intuitively possible for them yet. I see KR's making anti-voidlight first since Navani discovered it and so if Shallon and Navani discuss that discovery the idea occurring to them.

Changing topography does little to stop coinshots, windrunners, or skybreakers. Seekers and Tineyes would have and give an advantage over other earthbound people. Ambushes set up by Scadrian's in altered terain would be more effective than those of Rosharan's (if you can't see why that is you need to think on it more). besides how much ground can really be changed?

Oh an Iron compounder would potentially be resistant to even gamma lasers.

At this point we have pre-WWI tech and tactics on Scadrial vs Medievil tech and tactics on Roshar with some tweaks coming from magic on both. Raw one on one power usually goes to Roshar and in a virtually hand to hand engagement they almost always win, but that advantage switches with combined and ranged tactics. Lines of Rosharans would likely be wiped out en mass by Gatling guns, explosives, artillery, and guerrilla tactics. Roshar is only just starting to realize that their medievil military doctrine will need to change now that Radiants are a reality. At this point it will come as a big surprise if Fused, Regals, Windrunners, and Skybreakers get knocked out of the air by a few concealed foes even if those foes have no individual power themselves. Tineyes, willshapers, and pewter arms would all make excellent marksmen or modern soldiers of any kind.

@The Technovore Just remember there is no article I have seen on Iron compounding, not even the coppermind references it, and so far we have only seen the results of Iron-F or Iron-A separately. Wax regularly stored half his weight when ever he was awake so he was storing 100 to 125 lbs / second, minute, or hour that he tapped regularly for improved allomancy. Tapping at more than one to one actually yields a loss in terms of what can be tapped. In other words some of the weight is lost if he taps it faster than he stored it like with all feruchemy. A compounder can store at a much higher rate and can tap almost all the stored attribute near instantly. A Pewter compounder who tapped their stored strength would be huge or even titanic. The punch from an Iron compounder tapping weight would have massive force in a small surface area with the proportional bone density to withstand the impact. I suspect that could shatter shardplate sections driving them into the Radiant or even punch right through the radiant in shardplate entirely. Not sure how long a radiant could withstand that kind of punishment, and if they had metal on their person they could be yanked back for more time and again. Iron is also relatively inexpensive so is readily available to use.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

yes and over time as they mix with regular people they dilute the genes for allomancy. TLR was only mildly interested in restricting mistings.

If it were possible it would have been done, power is all the marriges are in this world. TLR was barely intrested in the nobility, you read TFE he didn't care what they did so long as they obeyed him. The Hapsburg family shows us that if possible A pure Mistborn familfy would have happened.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It is just obvious to me that they were using military tactics, but if you don't see it, you don't see it.

And I quite clearly did not see anything there.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

yes and Kaladin's flying was better, and Jasna's soul casting was better, so Renarin is especially talented at progression.

There is no evidence to support that.

Claiming it being the order doesn't make sense either because Windrunners get Adhesion first.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Great at some point they may have lasers and kill themselves trying to use them, but not yet, not even intuitively possible for them yet. I see KR's making anti-voidlight first since Navani discovered it and so if Shallon and Navani discuss that discovery the idea occurring to them.

At some point they WILL have lasers, and it appears to be reletivly safe for them.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh an Iron compounder would potentially be resistant to even gamma lasers.

Evidence?

Quote

Changing topography does little to stop coinshots, windrunners, or skybreakers. Seekers and Tineyes would have and give an advantage over other earthbound people. Ambushes set up by Scadrian's in altered terain would be more effective than those of Rosharan's (if you can't see why that is you need to think on it more). besides how much ground can really be changed?

Scandrial does not have the power to alter terrain.

The Art of War has an entire section dedicated to terrain.

The Brittish left Boston without a fight because of terrain.

Terrain is one of the most important factors.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Frustration

[Tglassy]

I love this argument. 

 

I only read the first few pages.  Seriously, 34?  

 

That said, it is always surprising to me when people say that Radiants were made for open warfare and Mistborn never have to fight powerful enemies.  Does no one EVER remember Vin taking out an army of Kolos by herself?  Literal giants?  Picking up gigantic swords twice as large as she was and slicing them into pieces?  Or how about how Vin held her own against 12 FULLBORN.  Seriously, the Inquisitors in the third Mistborn book are essentially all at the same level as TLR.  Maybe they haven't built up enough compounding over the years, but they all have the potential.  And Vin held them off.  Pit Vin against ANY Radiant, I don't care what level, and she'll give them a run for their money, period.  

 

And Elend was STRONG than Vin.  No where near as talented, sure, but stronger.  If you'd made Kelsior a Mistborn using a Bead, he'd have plowed through those Inquisitors without a second's hesitation, especially once you give him all 16 metals.  Give a Mistborn a Kolos blade and send them after a radiant.  

 

 

And here's the thing about Atium being an "I WIn" button. IF there's a way to win, Atium will show it to you.  So really, the only way to know if a Mistborn could ever take a Radiant of any Oath level would be to give them some Atium and have them fight.  If the mistborn loses, then there is literally no timeline in which they would have won.  But if there's ONE timeline in which the Mistborn could win, no matter how implausible, the Atium will show it to them, and they'll win.  Give them a Kolos Blade and some Atium, and the Radiant's head is coming off.  

 

 

And then there's a Duralamin-Pewter Punch.  Vin made a man's head explode using one.  Make a Radiant's head explode, and maybe he gets back up?   But while his head is regrowing, you just keep stomping on it until it stops.  

 

Yeah, Radiants are amazingly powerful, and sure, the fight would probably go their way more times than not, depending on circumstances, but I think that Mistborn of sufficient talent and all sixteen metals would give them an amazing run for their money, especially since we don't know the limitations of Plate yet.  Didn't Jasnah nearly die in the battle, despite wearing plate?  

 

Also, would a Nicroburst disrupt Living Plate or summoned Shardblades?  Aren't they made of pure investiture, and doesn't Nicrosil make Investiture go away?  Just a thought. 

 

 

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Tglassy said:

I love this argument. 

 

I only read the first few pages.  Seriously, 34?  

*laughs* 34 is only the tip of the iceburg, with all the threads on this, I excpect there are several hundred pages of this on the shard.

2 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

That said, it is always surprising to me when people say that Radiants were made for open warfare and Mistborn never have to fight powerful enemies.  Does no one EVER remember Vin taking out an army of Kolos by herself?  Literal giants?  Picking up gigantic swords twice as large as she was and slicing them into pieces?  Or how about how Vin held her own against 12 FULLBORN.  Seriously, the Inquisitors in the third Mistborn book are essentially all at the same level as TLR.  Maybe they haven't built up enough compounding over the years, but they all have the potential.  And Vin held them off.  Pit Vin against ANY Radiant, I don't care what level, and she'll give them a run for their money, period.  

They could at most compound 2 maybe three metals, not all of them, and at that point Vin was drawing upon Preservation.

As to the Koloss, dead plate is far stronger.

4 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And Elend was STRONG than Vin.  No where near as talented, sure, but stronger.  If you'd made Kelsior a Mistborn using a Bead, he'd have plowed through those Inquisitors without a second's hesitation, especially once you give him all 16 metals.  Give a Mistborn a Kolos blade and send them after a radiant.  

Against a shardblade that will last for maybe one hit.

4 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And here's the thing about Atium being an "I WIn" button. IF there's a way to win, Atium will show it to you.  So really, the only way to know if a Mistborn could ever take a Radiant of any Oath level would be to give them some Atium and have them fight.  If the mistborn loses, then there is literally no timeline in which they would have won.  But if there's ONE timeline in which the Mistborn could win, no matter how implausible, the Atium will show it to them, and they'll win.  Give them a Kolos Blade and some Atium, and the Radiant's head is coming off.  

Atium burns way faster than Stormlight, a Radiant would outlast Atium, and that's the only win condition they have.

5 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And then there's a Duralamin-Pewter Punch.  Vin made a man's head explode using one.  Make a Radiant's head explode, and maybe he gets back up?   But while his head is regrowing, you just keep stomping on it until it stops.  

You can only do one of those punches, and that is just going to break the plate, not break their head to.

6 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Yeah, Radiants are amazingly powerful, and sure, the fight would probably go their way more times than not, depending on circumstances, but I think that Mistborn of sufficient talent and all sixteen metals would give them an amazing run for their money, especially since we don't know the limitations of Plate yet.  Didn't Jasnah nearly die in the battle, despite wearing plate?  

How to put this nicely, Jashna's blade skill is... lacking, but she has other advantages, if you will recall OB, Jashna was almost unstopable and destroyed an entire group in one attack.

8 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Also, would a Nicroburst disrupt Living Plate or summoned Shardblades?  Aren't they made of pure investiture, and doesn't Nicrosil make Investiture go away?  Just a thought. 

No, but a leecher would have a similar effect to suppression fabrials.

Also you don't need that much space between you lines, it makes it hard to read.

[Tglassy]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

They could at most compound 2 maybe three metals, not all of them, and at that point Vin was drawing upon Preservation.

Vin wasn't drawing on Preservation until they took the earring out.  She was holding her own before that.  The Mist wouldn't touch her with it in.  

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

As to the Koloss, dead plate is far stronger.

Speculation, you don't know the exact strength dimensions of Shardplate vs a Koloss.  Older Koloss are over 12 feet tall, and made of pure muscle.  Them is strong.  

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Against a shardblade that will last for maybe one hit.

Again, speculation.  And with a large enough weapon, you only need one hit.  That's what Thunderclasts were for.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Atium burns way faster than Stormlight, a Radiant would outlast Atium, and that's the only win condition they have.

Irrelevant.  It only takes a moment to kill someone.  30 seconds is a long time in a fight.  As I said, if there's a sliver of a chance the Mistborn could end it during that time, they will.  If there happens to be absolutely no chance in a billion that they could ever win, then sure, Atium won't help.  But if the possibility exists, Atium will find it.  

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You can only do one of those punches, and that is just going to break the plate, not break their head to.

More speculation.  Why wouldn't it break their head too?  Vin headbutted someone and HIS HEAD EXPLODED.  That means she went through his skull, with her skull, and she didn't even get dizzy.  The skull is the hardest bone in the body, and she moved through it like it was made of air.  Even a hit from a Chasm Fiend wouldn't do that without a rock on the other side of the head to smash it against.  Heck, even a punch from LIVING plate hasn't shown to have that much force.  There's no indication that a duralamin powered punch wouldn't go straight through the plate and knock their head clean off.  

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How to put this nicely, Jashna's blade skill is... lacking, but she has other advantages, if you will recall OB, Jashna was almost unstopable and destroyed an entire group in one attack.

Touche.  But still, shows that skill is often the deciding factor over power.  

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Also you don't need that much space between you lines, it makes it hard to read.

Your face makes it hard to read. 

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Vin wasn't drawing on Preservation until they took the earring out.  She was holding her own before that.  The Mist wouldn't touch her with it in.  

Oh, before that, ok.

Well, at that point if I do recall, she was mainly playing deffensive, more jumping around trying to draw upon the mists then almost killing them.

4 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Speculation, you don't know the exact strength dimensions of Shardplate vs a Koloss.  Older Koloss are over 12 feet tall, and made of pure muscle.  Them is strong.  

Dalinar held up a roughly 1,080 foot tall monster.

That is ludicurous,

Given that African Bush elephants weigh at max 13,000 pounds and only get to 13 feet

we can say with some assurance that this is in the hundreds of thousands of pounds Dalinar is holding here. Now that is the upper limit of what shardplate can do, but it has been done.

11 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Again, speculation.  And with a large enough weapon, you only need one hit.  That's what Thunderclasts were for.

I, what?

and the koloss sword would get cut in half by a shardblade.

12 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Irrelevant.  It only takes a moment to kill someone.  30 seconds is a long time in a fight.  As I said, if there's a sliver of a chance the Mistborn could end it during that time, they will.  If there happens to be absolutely no chance in a billion that they could ever win, then sure, Atium won't help.  But if the possibility exists, Atium will find it.  

Tell that to Kaladin and Shallan, Having you spine severed several times and still walking away without a scratch is insane.

13 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

More speculation.  Why wouldn't it break their head too?  Vin headbutted someone and HIS HEAD EXPLODED.  That means she went through his skull, with her skull, and she didn't even get dizzy.  The skull is the hardest bone in the body, and she moved through it like it was made of air.  Even a hit from a Chasm Fiend wouldn't do that without a rock on the other side of the head to smash it against.  Heck, even a punch from LIVING plate hasn't shown to have that much force.  There's no indication that a duralamin powered punch wouldn't go straight through the plate and knock their head clean off.  

Dalinar feel several stories, sourounded by falling rocks, through three buildings and lived in good enough condition to fight a man to the death, Shardplate is rediculasly durable.

14 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Touche.  But still, shows that skill is often the deciding factor over power.  

And?

14 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Your face makes it hard to read. 

How dare you, I have the perfect number of facets to maximize readability.

[The Technovore he/him]

Okay funny thing actually Nicrosil acts like Duralumin for others, boosting their investiture while consuming it. It's Chromium that makes Leechers. By the way I have a whole thesis on a lot of factors of this topic, specifically regarding tactics, and Smokers, hopefully it could bring some reasonable middle ground to some of the facets of this argument, but first I need to find the time to write it 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

2 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Okay funny thing actually Nicrosil acts like Duralumin for others, boosting their investiture while consuming it. It's Chromium that makes Leechers. By the way I have a whole thesis on a lot of factors of this topic, specifically regarding tactics, and Smokers, hopefully it could bring some reasonable middle ground to some of the facets of this argument, but first I need to find the time to write it 

Unexpected boost to powers can be even more dangerous than Leeching, especially because it converts all power at once. Windrunners are the best example - they tent to Lash themselves partialy up, for better mouvment. If someone would Nicroburst Windrunner, his Lashing would be overcharged, and he would be literaly launch up, without Stormlight (because of Burst). So he is as good as dead, if he doesnt have Gems.

[BenduLuke he/him]

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

At some point they WILL have lasers, and it appears to be reletivly safe for them.

Evidence?

Scandrial does not have the power to alter terrain.

The Art of War has an entire section dedicated to terrain.

The Brittish left Boston without a fight because of terrain.

Terrain is one of the most important factors.

I am glad you mentioned Lasers being a potential Illumination power. It seems to me that Scadrial will develop Lasers first and it will be the Coinshots and Lurchers using them. The most effective and likely to use them safely will be Steel compounders and Iron Compounders. Once Scadrial discovers Heavy and Space age metals, which could be soon, a coinshot can use the radiation inherant in the metal to make lasers. It would probably take an Iron compounder to make a Laser as Lurchers would need to do it differently. Crush Hydrogen in to fusion and reflect and focus that energy off a Berylium mirror at your target and you have a multi spectrum laser. Hydrogen is a metal so able to be manipulated by a Lurcher.

Laser are not a useful and we would hope since they have no stopping power, must be used in line of sight, and effectively only burn through things. A maser would be more useful since any bags of mostly water would likely explode from the Inside out. I was thinking about which order of radiant would be most effective with EM Weapons like Lasers and finaly decided it would be Light weavers since they could soul cast something flammable that they could ignite with a laser. A steel compounder would leave that in the dust though. They could push a radioactive sphere like Uranium or Plutonium into an army well away from them and ignite it with a laser produce from additional radioactive material. Using their ability to push on metal they could shield themselves from the radioactive material they were carrying and they could burn the feruchemically charged steel to give them the speed to escape the atomic or nuclear blast they ignited. Can a Radiant Survive a nuclear blast?

All this came from you mentioning that Lightweavers can use Lasers.

Scadrians don't need to alter terrain, though they clearly will have that ability at some point (See above), since they have tech that can better take advantage of altered terrain. Roshar's art of war is based on medievil terrain tactics which wouldn't survive an engagement with modern weapons. The brits and americans were at roughly the same tech level so terrain being a factor doesn't say anything. Altered terrain favors Scadrian's more.

A person like an Iron compounder who could have the density of lead would be resistant to virtually all radiation. I would think that would be obvious. What more evidence do you need?

I think perhaps that Truthwatchers will develop Lasers on Roshar first because of how people like Renarin use light as compared to Shallon, but Lightweavers will have more spectacular displays once they develop the ability. I think Truthwatchers will use their em pulses martially in ways to more subtly destroy their opponents like creating cancers. Lasers can also be used for cutting, so laser surgery anyone? Reflective surfaces could stop Illumination lasers, but perhaps not coinshot lasers.

Sonic attacks are another devastating attack possible to Illumination surgers to consider in a conflict.

13 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Okay funny thing actually Nicrosil acts like Duralumin for others, boosting their investiture while consuming it. It's Chromium that makes Leechers. By the way I have a whole thesis on a lot of factors of this topic, specifically regarding tactics, and Smokers, hopefully it could bring some reasonable middle ground to some of the facets of this argument, but first I need to find the time to write it 

 

10 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Unexpected boost to powers can be even more dangerous than Leeching, especially because it converts all power at once. Windrunners are the best example - they tent to Lash themselves partialy up, for better mouvment. If someone would Nicroburst Windrunner, his Lashing would be overcharged, and he would be literaly launch up, without Stormlight (because of Burst). So he is as good as dead, if he doesnt have Gems.

Thanks to all of you and others i have an idea how reverse compounding might work. The most obvious example to start with is the Tin compounder. They can burn tin and store their senses in various tin minds, or they can burn a tin mind with a specific sense to compound that sense and it doesn't need matter how they start to store senses. Pewter compounders work nearly the same since they can start by storing strength or by getting strength from burning pewter first then compounding on that from there. So what if a compounder has such a strong spirtual connection to their metal that they can store an allomancy surge such as coin pushing in steel just like they can store speed in steel then tap it feruchemically later? That is possible with both tin and pewter. Tin can store senses from the burning of any allomantic metal, and Pewter can potentially charge aspects of several Feruchemical metals. I don't see that kind of synergy in Radiant magic.

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I am glad you mentioned Lasers being a potential Illumination power. It seems to me that Scadrial will develop Lasers first and it will be the Coinshots and Lurchers using them. The most effective and likely to use them safely will be Steel compounders and Iron Compounders. Once Scadrial discovers Heavy and Space age metals, which could be soon, a coinshot can use the radiation inherant in the metal to make lasers. It would probably take an Iron compounder to make a Laser as Lurchers would need to do it differently. Crush Hydrogen in to fusion and reflect and focus that energy off a Berylium mirror at your target and you have a multi spectrum laser. Hydrogen is a metal so able to be manipulated by a Lurcher.

Hydrogen may or may not count as a metal it's up in the air until confirmation

Spoiler

Questioner

What would be the Allomantic definition of "metal" as it relates to steel and iron, what shows up? Like, the metalloids, compounds, in ironsight and stuff?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, I don't know what you mean by that. What are the percentages?

Questioner

The periodic table.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, the periodic table. On the periodic table, the difference between iron and steel? What do you mean?

Questioner

What do iron and steel define as metals? So they would show up with blue lines?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, on the periodic table, what defines as metals? I see what you're staying. So, this is kind of free-form on my part. I have check marks on them on my periodic table, where I kinda just sat and said "Yes, no, yes, no." But things over on the side with cesium and what-not, they would, they would count. Not everything that looks like it should count does. But most everything in that little batch, next to iron and gold and everybody over there, most everybody right there will, and most everybody over on the side will, the stuff that explodes with water. So for instance, ...sodium and stuff like that, if they're in their pure form would, but it's kinda freeform, I just had to make calls. Because there's gotta be a dividing line somewhere.

Questioner

So, would ironsight in enhanced Inquisitor form, show up on atoms in compounds...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, yeah, they totally would. That all shows up. Trace metals and things like that, they can see your blood, they can see all sorts of stuff.

Firefight Houston signing (Jan. 23, 2015)

 

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Laser are not a useful and we would hope since they have no stopping power, must be used in line of sight, and effectively only burn through things. A maser would be more useful since any bags of mostly water would likely explode from the Inside out. I was thinking about which order of radiant would be most effective with EM Weapons like Lasers and finaly decided it would be Light weavers since they could soul cast something flammable that they could ignite with a laser. A steel compounder would leave that in the dust though. They could push a radioactive sphere like Uranium or Plutonium into an army well away from them and ignite it with a laser produce from additional radioactive material. Using their ability to push on metal they could shield themselves from the radioactive material they were carrying and they could burn the feruchemically charged steel to give them the speed to escape the atomic or nuclear blast they ignited. Can a Radiant Survive a nuclear blast?

You can't push on gama radiation, or on thermal radiation, and you can't outrun light, that is in no way safe.

As for Radiant survival, depends on the strength of the detonation, they could theoretically survive small nuclear blasts depending on how far away they are and how much stormlight they have.

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

All this came from you mentioning that Lightweavers can use Lasers.

ok

7 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrians don't need to alter terrain, though they clearly will have that ability at some point (See above), since they have tech that can better take advantage of altered terrain. Roshar's art of war is based on medievil terrain tactics which wouldn't survive an engagement with modern weapons. The brits and americans were at roughly the same tech level so terrain being a factor doesn't say anything. Altered terrain favors Scadrian's more.

Um, where is sufficent evidence for mass terain alteration? Just blowing the ground into a massive crater doesn't do you any good.

And since Roshar has the ability to choose what the terrain is, they will make it the one that best helps them.

And no the British were far better equiped that the American forces, the only Cannon's the American's had were the ones they had stolen form Fort Ticonderoga.

Huh, stealing weapons, wonder when that has come up before.

13 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

A person like an Iron compounder who could have the density of lead would be resistant to virtually all radiation. I would think that would be obvious. What more evidence do you need?

Lead eventually needs to be replaced, and replacing your skin isn't that easy, while it might improve your chances of survival, I wouldn't risk it.

[BenduLuke he/him]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Hydrogen may or may not count as a metal it's up in the air until confirmation

  Hide contents

Questioner

What would be the Allomantic definition of "metal" as it relates to steel and iron, what shows up? Like, the metalloids, compounds, in ironsight and stuff?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, I don't know what you mean by that. What are the percentages?

Questioner

The periodic table.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, the periodic table. On the periodic table, the difference between iron and steel? What do you mean?

Questioner

What do iron and steel define as metals? So they would show up with blue lines?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, on the periodic table, what defines as metals? I see what you're staying. So, this is kind of free-form on my part. I have check marks on them on my periodic table, where I kinda just sat and said "Yes, no, yes, no." But things over on the side with cesium and what-not, they would, they would count. Not everything that looks like it should count does. But most everything in that little batch, next to iron and gold and everybody over there, most everybody right there will, and most everybody over on the side will, the stuff that explodes with water. So for instance, ...sodium and stuff like that, if they're in their pure form would, but it's kinda freeform, I just had to make calls. Because there's gotta be a dividing line somewhere.

Questioner

So, would ironsight in enhanced Inquisitor form, show up on atoms in compounds...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, yeah, they totally would. That all shows up. Trace metals and things like that, they can see your blood, they can see all sorts of stuff.

Firefight Houston signing (Jan. 23, 2015)

 

You can't push on gama radiation, or on thermal radiation, and you can't outrun light, that is in no way safe.

As for Radiant survival, depends on the strength of the detonation, they could theoretically survive small nuclear blasts depending on how far away they are and how much stormlight they have.

ok

Um, where is sufficent evidence for mass terain alteration? Just blowing the ground into a massive crater doesn't do you any good.

And since Roshar has the ability to choose what the terrain is, they will make it the one that best helps them.

And no the British were far better equiped that the American forces, the only Cannon's the American's had were the ones they had stolen form Fort Ticonderoga.

Huh, stealing weapons, wonder when that has come up before.

Lead eventually needs to be replaced, and replacing your skin isn't that easy, while it might improve your chances of survival, I wouldn't risk it.

you can push on the radioactive metal particles and use them to split the radioactive metal sphere. Illumination can do the strait up gamma Laser or Maser and everything in between. The bombers in Japan weren't faster than light either and they got away after dropping the bomb, steel compounders can detonate at sufficient distance and run faster than the bombers that dropped the A bombs.

The Fusion laser trick would almost certainly take an Iron compounder since they would probably need the extreme mass they could produce and the leverage that would give them to fuse Hydrogen (Technically a metal). Iron compounders could have the density of Lead through compounded Iron-F. Their iron body armor used as their metal mind would have some radiation resistance. No need to change skin it would be as dense as lead for as long as they needed it to be. Iron compoounding = near unlimited density for as long as needed.

The British were better supplied, but didn't have more technically advanced weapons. When we compare Roshar with Scadrial technologically we are comparing Camelot with WWI Britain respectively. The tactics are also that disparate.

Scadrians could reign artilery on the Rosharans trying to cross that altered terrain and would be better at locating them magically while doing so. The artillery would also alter the terrain. With projectile weapons flyers are less of a threat.

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

you can push on the radioactive metal particles and use them to split the radioactive metal sphere. Illumination can do the strait up gamma Laser or Maser and everything in between. The bombers in Japan weren't faster than light either and they got away after dropping the bomb, steel compounders can detonate at sufficient distance and run faster than the bombers that dropped the A bombs.

I'll give you that, now what do you do about Elsecallers soulcasting a nuke under your city while they are perfectly safe in the CR?

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The Fusion laser trick would almost certainly take an Iron compounder since they would probably need the extreme mass they could produce and the leverage that would give them to fuse Hydrogen (Technically a metal). Iron compounders could have the density of Lead through compounded Iron-F. Their iron body armor used as their metal mind would have some radiation resistance. No need to change skin it would be as dense as lead for as long as they needed it to be. Iron compoounding = near unlimited density for as long as needed.

Can they even Pull on Hydrogen? And besides they would need the mass of a Star to make that work,

7 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The British were better supplied, but didn't have more technically advanced weapons. When we compare Roshar with Scadrial technologically we are comparing Camelot with WWI Britain respectively. The tactics are also that disparate.

Most American soldiers were using thier own weapons, not exactly the same as professional military guns.

And two, the populations are reversed, Roshar has a significantly higher population,

9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrians could reign artilery on the Rosharans trying to cross that altered terrain and would be better at locating them magically while doing so. The artillery would also alter the terrain. With projectile weapons flyers are less of a threat.

Why would you cross Altered Terrain without moving a massive stone barrier in front of you?

Are you assuming their stupid?

[BenduLuke he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I'll give you that, now what do you do about Elsecallers soulcasting a nuke under your city while they are perfectly safe in the CR?

Can they even Pull on Hydrogen? And besides they would need the mass of a Star to make that work,

Most American soldiers were using thier own weapons, not exactly the same as professional military guns.

And two, the populations are reversed, Roshar has a significantly higher population,

Why would you cross Altered Terrain without moving a massive stone barrier in front of you?

Are you assuming their stupid?

Where do the Elsecallers soulcasting a nuke? I don't see that.

Theoretically an Iron compounder could have the density of a star or even greater depending on how much iron it would take to spiritually store that amount of density.

Yeah but the British weapons were little more advanced than the american weapons. Not enough to make much of a difference.

Stone wall? artillery can drop from over a wall. Mines can be planted in the path. Troops can shoot from elevation. The wall can be demolished back on the troops behind it. all of that can be done at a safe distance. No I assume they are unprepared for modern weaponry that can kill enmass. Thats before we start seeing space age tech on Scadrial. Roshar is hundreds of years from developing space age tech where as Scadrial is maybe decades away.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Where do the Elsecallers soulcasting a nuke?

Where do steel compounders make one? I don't see that?

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Theoretically an Iron compounder could have the density of a star or even greater depending on how much iron it would take to spiritually store that amount of density.

At that point they would be sunk to the center of their planet as @The Technovore has already pointed out.

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Stone wall? artillery can drop from over a wall. Mines can be planted in the path. Troops can shoot from elevation. The wall can be demolished back on the troops behind it. all of that can be done at a safe distance. No I assume they are unprepared for modern weaponry that can kill enmass. Thats before we start seeing space age tech on Scadrial. Roshar is hundreds of years from developing space age tech where as Scadrial is maybe decades away.

You do realise they can make it as thick as they want? Give it an overhang to protect troops beneath it?

they have the power to manipulate stone like it's clay.

Windrunners can already get to Space.

[BenduLuke he/him]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Where do steel compounders make one? I don't see that?

At that point they would be sunk to the center of their planet as @The Technovore has already pointed out.

You do realise they can make it as thick as they want? Give it an overhang to protect troops beneath it?

they have the power to manipulate stone like it's clay.

Windrunners can already get to Space.

Steel compounder pushes a plutonium sphere and bombards it with a nuclear laser, and tah-dah nuclear bomb. runs away very fast from far away.

The thicker they make it the slower they move and the more of it gets knocked down around their ears by artillery and the more time mines can be laid to detonate as the cross them.

Getting to space and having space age tech is vastly different. Superman could reach space no matter when he lived, but the weapons available to him would be limited by when he lived.

The Iron compounder only needs enough density to use his metal pulls to smash H atoms together, and he only needs to hold it long enough to do that. Even starting to sink into the earth takes time.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Steel compounder pushes a plutonium sphere and bombards it with a nuclear laser, and tah-dah nuclear bomb. runs away very fast from far away.

We'll try that agian when Scandrial can realistically make nuclear lasers.

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The thicker they make it the slower they move and the more of it gets knocked down around their ears by artillery and the more time mines can be laid to detonate as the cross them.

Not really, A Stoneward made a ladder up an entire cliff in seconds, large ammounts are not a huge problem.

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Getting to space and having space age tech is vastly different. Superman could reach space no matter when he lived, but the weapons available to him would be limited by when he lived.

Good luck finding any Scandrian who can beat Superman.

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The Iron compounder only needs enough density to use his metal pulls to smash H atoms together, and he only needs to hold it long enough to do that. Even starting to sink into the earth takes time.

He'll reach the mass of the Earth Long before he comes close to the mass required to start fusion,

Jupiter is FAR more massive than Earth and even it isn't enoguh to start Fusion.

[BenduLuke he/him]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We'll try that agian when Scandrial can realistically make nuclear lasers.

Not really, A Stoneward made a ladder up an entire cliff in seconds, large ammounts are not a huge problem.

Good luck finding any Scandrian who can beat Superman.

He'll reach the mass of the Earth Long before he comes close to the mass required to start fusion,

Jupiter is FAR more massive than Earth and even it isn't enoguh to start Fusion.

Realistically no one has Lasers yet, but Scadrian's will likely have them first.

Making a ladder is a far cry from a large barrier wall with ceiling. I can only imagine how much stormlight that might take.

I was only referring to Superman's flying ability, but someone with the Illumination surge might be able to kill him with the right em radiation (Kryptonite frequency).

An Iron compounder might be able to allomantically initiate H fusion long before they reach earth mass as well. you really wouldn't need much fusion to generate that kind of em blast. With a little lithium gas fused you could replenish the Berylium mirror used to reflect and focus the H em blast. I say H em blast because it would likely emit radiation from Microwaves to x-ray with some gamma emissions. Microwave being most immediately dangerous to us bags of mostly water or anyone wearing metal armor.

Jupiter actually does have a low level of fusion at its core, so does earth, but the heat generated and the amount of heavy atoms nearby keeps them both from blazing like a star. Heat in the case of Jupiter keeps the H atoms apart enough that they don't fuse often, and Heavy elements in earths core don't fuse and keep H separate enough that they don't fuse often either. More Fission in earths core due to the heavy metals.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Realistically no one has Lasers yet, but Scadrian's will likely have them first.

That's like saying Scandrial would have flight fist, Windrunners predate coinshots, and both predate airships. Lightweavers can make them now, realistically Roshar will have them first.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Making a ladder is a far cry from a large barrier wall with ceiling. I can only imagine how much stormlight that might take.

Man, if only we had a large number of Stonewards and Willshapers on top of Stoneshaping Singers and a Bondsmith to fuel them all.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I was only referring to Superman's flying ability, but someone with the Illumination surge might be able to kill him with the right em radiation (Kryptonite frequency).

But the analogy is perfect, Scandrial might have a tech edge, but it isn't enough, it isn't close to enough.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

An Iron compounder might be able to allomantically initiate H fusion long before they reach earth mass as well. you really wouldn't need much fusion to generate that kind of em blast. With a little lithium gas fused you could replenish the Berylium mirror used to reflect and focus the H em blast. I say H em blast because it would likely emit radiation from Microwaves to x-ray with some gamma emissions. Microwave being most immediately dangerous to us bags of mostly water or anyone wearing metal armor.

They would break through the crust long before they got enough mass behind them.

[The Technovore he/him]

Okay, I'm going to put these in spoilered sections because there's a lot I want to cover.

Tactics: Chicago PD versus Sun Tzu

Spoiler

 

> The main debate I see here is whether or not Scadrial has viable combat tactics. Benduluke argues they absolutely do, and Frustration asserts that no standing military means no effective combat strategy. Now I would argue that Scadrial does have effective combat strategy. We see allomancers, feruchemists, and twinborn on both sides of the law, which in terms of firepower, is about equivalent to Al Capone versus the Chicago PD. We see that the Luthadel police force is significant and well-armed, as are the Set and other criminal organizations. This situation does require effective combat strategy. Espionage, infiltration, collateral damage management, resource management and sabotage, research and development, and arms training. You could rely the higher-ups in Luthadel law enforcement and Elendel defense to be sound thinkers and strategists in their territory.

 Contrast this to the situation we see on Roshar. Roshar is a land war in Asia. Vast swaths of farmland and village networks that are contested for by large lumbering armies of troops. This is changing rapidly thanks to Radiants and Fused as shock troops but so far this is the prevailing war doctrine. Like Frustration pointed out, this makes the tactical thinkers the equivalent of Sun Tzu. Supply lines, resource security and denial, training the troops, leading with honor, gaining the trust of the civilians and soldiers, terrain and numbers management are the names of the game. Radiants and Fused and R&D are quickly coming to replace them, but on Roshar as it stands in RoW (because we won't be able to compare the two planets Apples to Apples until TLM and SA 6 some out), those things are augments to Sun Tzu doctorine.

Now, consider what would happen if the Prohibition-era Police Chief of Chicago went up against Sun Tzu. In this case, it would depend entirely on the terrain. Chicago PD would be hunted, trapped, and massacred in Asia, but Sun Tzu would be outmatched and outgunned in Chicago. Now consider if the Police Chief of Chicago had to lead a land war in Asia, and Tzu had to fight Al Capone. 

I see the skills of the Chief translating well over to large-scale war. He'd be elated to finally have the shackles of state law taken off and being able to go all-out against an enemy. They'd be competent in analyzing enemy movements, in working out the enemy terrain, enemy technology, countering their tactics, etc. They'd adapt quickly to most of the facets of war. They would, however, have a difficult time dealing with the extraordinary increase in logistical needs, resource management, and most of all, troop-training. Infantry ranks are different from police ranks, different requirements, different standards, different needs. They would simply not have the expertise they'd need to train men to suffer in hostile terrain, or to stay in formation during combat, nor would they be able to provide sufficiently for the army's needs and would suffer for it. 

I see some of the skills of Sun Tzu also translating well to Chicago, after a rough adjustment period. The principles of leadership, troop training, and organization would translate quickly, but the complexities of urban gang warfare would be an incredibly steep learning curve, and would make for costly mistakes if he was not careful. Perhaps career-ending mistakes. But his military genius, which was built in a crucible of difficult land wars, would mean that fundamental tactics and strategy could make for a great success, should he survive the adjustment period.

Here's how the metaphor translates. Scadrial's adjustment period into dealing with large-scale warfare would be rough and costly. They have most of what it takes down, and superior technology, but their ability to train and rally armies to deal with the horrors and physical strain of war would be inadequate for a long time, and their resource management would be poor. This does not necessarily spell their doom (see; the Union's ineptitude in the Civil war), but is a terrible disadvantage, which gives Roshar plenty of time to close the technology gap. I would see a Scadrian offensive slowing to a horrible crawl very quickly, and a Scadrian defensive being frantic and unorganized.

Roshar on the other hand, would have a lot on their hands with the new technology, and dealing with another completely alien and unfamiliar magic system. Radiants would fall to Mistborn or Compounders, and Ettmetal bombs would lead to multiple sore losses for them. However, having dealt with a similar situation just 15 years ago, after going through the crucible of the Desolations, which allowed them to grow used to magic-laden war would mean that for the most part their abilities would translate and evolve well. I see a Rosharan offensive suffereing extreme losses while gaining ground, and a Rosharan defensive being stalwart but destructive and costly.

The conclusion: Yes, Scadrial has tactics; yes, Rosharan military development is superior. Yes, Scadrial has tech advantage; yes, Rosharans can close the gap. <

 

whew, that's done. Now for my final takedown of Benduluke's concepts of compounding bending fundamental physics.

Concerning Compounding

Spoiler

 

> The reason why Iron Compounding can never attain superplantary mass, and why Steel Compounding is very unlikely to exceed lightspeed, has nothing to do with the laws of physics or the maths, but with the fundamentals of Feruchemy and Allomancy themselves. 

Feruchemy is the art of using metals to manipulate, store, and unleash the innate investiture and Spiritweb of the Feruchemist. There is, however, an upper limit to the ability for a Feruchemist to store an attribute. This is the size of the metal itself. Stored Investiture takes up "space" in the metal, and as the size of the metal increases, the increase in storable Investiture lessens. There is a law of diminishing returns. 

There is also a limit to Allomantic power. An allomancer has three settings on their burning: burning, flaring, and duralumin. Allomancy works by allowing the user to tap into the power of the Shard to fuel the effects, and increased allomantic power means increased ability to burn metals, and greater effect from the metals, maxing out at Lerasium Mistborn. 

This, together with the upper limits of Feruchemy, by logical reasoning means that there is indeed an upper limit to Compounding. Even with Duralumin-Compounding, Sanderson has said the effect would not be increased power, but causing the effects to last longer. (it's on the arcanum real long can't be bothered to copy it sorry)

Now, compounding, literally, is tapping into the power of the Shard through Allomancy, but using the Shard's power to fuel Feruchemy instead. This means that the upper limit of compounding can be no more then the capabilities of the Shard, and likely tops out far below the capabilities of a Shard. I can't find the WoB, but we know that Shards can't create black holes. We don't see Shards creating stars or planets either, but rather going to preexisting ones and Investing and forming humans. 

This throws out Benduluke's ideas about Iron compounders bending gravity through sheer mass gain. I'm sorry, but if the Shards can't create a planet's worth of mass, then there's no way they can fuel Investiture enough for a human to do so. This also means that Steel Compounding likely isn't going to break Lightspeed. MeLaan is the only steel compounder we see, and although she's faster than the eye, very fast indeed, she's not doing things like traveling cross-country in seconds, or going so fast she reaches escape velocity--something you'd do long before you reached Lightspeed.<

 

 

That also puts upper limits on the Fullborn's abilities. That's important, because if a Fullborn were able to continue to compound ever increasing amounts, they'd essentially be a Shard already. 

Oh my goodness I'm writing a book, whew. Alright, I want to keep going by talking about Electrum, Atium, and Copper, and how I think we might be underestimating Mistborn's chances against a Radiant. (I mean BenduLuke probably isn't but--)

 

Electrum & Atium

Spoiler

 

> Electrum is the non-godmetal form of Atium. It produces largely the same effect by allowing the user to see their future and change it. However, Atium and Electrum have several major differences. Atium shows the future of others, Electrum your own future. Atium also enhances the user's mental capacity, letting them take in all the information and react instantly, making them very efficient killers, because Atium taps into Ruin's Investiture, not Preservations. 

Now, here's the thing in this matchup between Era 2 Scadrial and RoW Roshar. Atium no longer exists. Ruin no longer exists. Harmony is a single, self-contradictory shard, that would be extremely difficult to separate again, this is confirmed through WoB. Atium may be derived somehow from Harmonium, but this is likely not going to occur unless Harmony wills it. I propose, and this is just my opinion, that we should not be assuming Atium-burning Mistborn, but instead Electrum-burning Mistborn, because unless we are talking about Era 1, Mistborn would instead be using Electrum. <

 

 

 

 

Copper 

Spoiler

 

> In a re-read of TFE, a line Kelsier said popped out to me as very significant. Copper makes the burner immune to emotional Allomancy. Why? I propose that it is because the burning of copper, in addition to suppressing the Rhythms, causes the allomancer to take on the properties of a heavily-invested material, like Shardblades and Metalminds. Consider the reasons this could be plausible. In Era 1 Scadrial, we see that four metals only affect the burner--copper, bronze, pewter, and tin. Of the four external metals, two of them only affect metal, not people. Only zinc and brass target other beings directly. 

If my hypothesis is correct, this could have big ramifications for Scadrian combatants dealing with Surgebinders. If Smokers are resistant to being targeted or affected by Investiture, that would make them immune to being Lashed, or targeted directly by any Surges, which would make Smokers the equivalent of Hazekillers against Surgebinders--relatively unpowered, but trained to counter their abilities.  <

 

 

 

 

Mistborn

Spoiler

 

> Finally we come to the Mistborn. If my hypothesis about copper is correct, then that means that on top of having the ability to do the fancy iron-and-steel bludgeoning-you-with-an-ingot shenanigans, and the ability to mess with a Radiant's Investiture with Chromium and Nicrosil, and the ability to unexpectedly shift-location with Bendalloy, and the stormlight-mimicking effects of tin and pewter (no-healing) and the reliable Atium-lite abilities of Electrum, they are also personally resistant to any Surges the Radiant could attempt to put on them. No Division, no Lashing into the sky or ground, no Adhesion, no Abrasion-slicking, none of that. Obviously all the surges can be used, but several of their applications are gone. There are still plenty of ways to kill a Mistborn. Sinking them into stone, soulcasting the air around them to crystal, encasement in Aluminum, Lashing rocks high-speed at them, literally just touching them with a sprenblade. 

I would conclude that if a Oath 3 Radiant went up against a Mistborn without knowing what a Mistborn was, but a Mistborn knew about Radiants, the Radiant would die almost immediately. Even an Oath 4 caught unawares I would mark as dead. If both the Radiant and the Mistborn knew about each other though, I think the Mistborn would still be most likely to win, (even with Oath 4), and the Radiant would have to be extremely tricksy to overcome them. 

Conversely, a Radiant who knew about Mistborn attacking a Mistborn who's never met a Radiant would still have a good chance, but they'd better start with something to immobilize the Scadrian because they're not sneaking up on them and Surges wouldn't apply.

Obviously Bondsmiths don't apply, the spiritual realm mumbo-jumbo probably trumps all of that. <

 

Alright, my word processor is telling me I'm at over 2,000 words, so I'm going to stop before I accidentally re-write Elantris. Hopefully this provides some satisfactory analysis and middle-ground for some of these arguments, and I hope a discussion about the applications of A-copper sparks somewhere but I think that could be very interesting. 

To those who have read all that: Thank you, and good job!

Edited February 28, 2021 by The Technovore

[Bejarden he/him]

4 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

We don't see Shards creating stars or planets either, but rather going to preexisting ones and Investing and forming humans. 

Ruin and preservation created scadrial so that might ruin that part of your theory

6 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Atium no longer exists. Ruin no longer exists.

There is a way to get atium so you probably have to assume they have it if you are assuming ever

 

10 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

> Finally we come to the Mistborn.

There aren’t  any mistborns left right?

[Frustration he/him]

Ruin and preservation made Scandrial

14 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Copper 

  Hide contents

 

> In a re-read of TFE, a line Kelsier said popped out to me as very significant. Copper makes the burner immune to emotional Allomancy. Why? I propose that it is because the burning of copper, in addition to suppressing the Rhythms, causes the allomancer to take on the properties of a heavily-invested material, like Shardblades and Metalminds. Consider the reasons this could be plausible. In Era 1 Scadrial, we see that four metals only affect the burner--copper, bronze, pewter, and tin. Of the four external metals, two of them only affect metal, not people. Only zinc and brass target other beings directly. 

If my hypothesis is correct, this could have big ramifications for Scadrian combatants dealing with Surgebinders. If Smokers are resistant to being targeted or affected by Investiture, that would make them immune to being Lashed, or targeted directly by any Surges, which would make Smokers the equivalent of Hazekillers against Surgebinders--relatively unpowered, but trained to counter their abilities.  <

 

 

 

 

Mistborn

  Hide contents

 

> Finally we come to the Mistborn. If my hypothesis about copper is correct, then that means that on top of having the ability to do the fancy iron-and-steel bludgeoning-you-with-an-ingot shenanigans, and the ability to mess with a Radiant's Investiture with Chromium and Nicrosil, and the ability to unexpectedly shift-location with Bendalloy, and the stormlight-mimicking effects of tin and pewter (no-healing) and the reliable Atium-lite abilities of Electrum, they are also personally resistant to any Surges the Radiant could attempt to put on them. No Division, no Lashing into the sky or ground, no Adhesion, no Abrasion-slicking, none of that. Obviously all the surges can be used, but several of their applications are gone. There are still plenty of ways to kill a Mistborn. Sinking them into stone, soulcasting the air around them to crystal, encasement in Aluminum, Lashing rocks high-speed at them, literally just touching them with a sprenblade. 

I would conclude that if a Oath 3 Radiant went up against a Mistborn without knowing what a Mistborn was, but a Mistborn knew about Radiants, the Radiant would die almost immediately. Even an Oath 4 caught unawares I would mark as dead. If both the Radiant and the Mistborn knew about each other though, I think the Mistborn would still be most likely to win, (even with Oath 4), and the Radiant would have to be extremely tricksy to overcome them. 

Conversely, a Radiant who knew about Mistborn attacking a Mistborn who's never met a Radiant would still have a good chance, but they'd better start with something to immobilize the Scadrian because they're not sneaking up on them and Surges wouldn't apply.

Obviously Bondsmiths don't apply, the spiritual realm mumbo-jumbo probably trumps all of that. <

 

Alright, my word processor is telling me I'm at over 2,000 words, so I'm going to stop before I accidentally re-write Elantris. Hopefully this provides some satisfactory analysis and middle-ground for some of these arguments, and I hope a discussion about the applications of A-copper sparks somewhere but I think that could be very interesting. 

To those who have read all that: Thank you, and good job!

I don't think they'd be immune, but anyway, you're forgeting the shardblade, I'd give a full shardbearer good odds against Mistborn.

[The Technovore he/him]

Fair enough, the bit with Electrum vs Atium was weakest part of the whole thing, I appreciate being held to honesty like that 

 I forgot they actually made the planet, that's interesting, but the point about the mechanics still stands I suppose. 

[Anarchy he/him]

Since nicrosil would cause all of the stormlight to be used the radiant would instantly become tired or be knocked unconscious the radiants might be used to fighting against enemies who can take the stormlight from them but they can’t expect this.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Anarchy

[Frustration he/him]

30 minutes ago, Anarchy said:

Since nicrosil would cause all of the stormlight to be used the radiant would instantly become tired or be knocked unconscious the radiants might be used to fighting against enemies who can take the stormlight from them but they can’t expect this.

You overestimate the effect that would have, Duralumin-pewter doesn't knock out a Mistborn, why would Nicrocil knock out a Radiant?

[Anarchy he/him]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

You overestimate the effect that would have, Duralumin-pewter doesn't knock out a Mistborn, why would Nicrocil knock out a Radiant?

Stormlight is more potent then pewter.