Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[NameIess]

22 hours ago, Frustration said:

So, you're just saying use A-pewter?

Or store A-pewter in F-pewter, and pull it out in large quantities later?

I mean, he could compound A-pewter in nicrosil, getting infinite strength and durability, but that's not what I meant. you can store the strength that you get from A-pewter in a pewtermind, which does not increase your muscle mass. Doing this would "key" the metalmind to the strength from A-pewter, and you could then burn it to compound that effect.

[Aspiring Writer]

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@Aspiring Writer

No WoB on it, just the observation of Ishar's fight against the Windrunners. Connection,  like Atium sight, originate in the Spiritual Realm.  Ishar probably cannot manipulate connections without physical contact,  but he should be able to see them. That's why I said Speed is TLR's biggest advantage. In the absence of Atium,  Emotional Allomancy is his next greatest,  and the more dependable one. The reaction time of every Herald is supernatural,  they may be fast enough to defend themselves from the speed of TLR at least for a little while even if they could not counter.

I again must emphasize that I still believe TLR takes the prize, the only difference is that I used to think he could body all 10 Heralds,  if not all together,  then at least in groups of 4 or 5. Now I believe TLR has a much thinner margin for error.  

Something that we should take into account for this battle is that every last combatant is insane.  No win is certain because on the Scadrial side Ruin could be prompting TLR to make a mistake or underestimate the opponent.  It's how he lost to Vin after all. On the other side we don't know what particular magical malady any particular Herald is suffering from,  it's kind of a crapshoot.

In our scenarios, we're debating as if they are trying their best to kill each other, even if they are slightly insane. 

 

3 hours ago, seriodor said:

I meant a Fullborn. I know the topic was Mistborn V. Radiant, but I think that's pretty pointless because a Radiant will definitely win in most situations. I think a Fullborn would of course win with sufficient preparation, but it's not a guaranteed thing. I think the outcome would depend on a ton of variables, the main one being availability of investiture. 

If a fullborn has his metalminds and sources, he'll win. Radiants are the few who don't need investiture to be powerful because of their shardblade and plate.

 

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I mean, he could compound A-pewter in nicrosil, getting infinite strength and durability, but that's not what I meant. you can store the strength that you get from A-pewter in a pewtermind, which does not increase your muscle mass. Doing this would "key" the metalmind to the strength from A-pewter, and you could then burn it to compound that effect.

That... may be possible. Tin can store bronze sense, as well as other supernatural senses, so it's possible for Pewter to store A-pewter strength, which should then work with compounding.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

That... may be possible. Tin can store bronze sense, as well as other supernatural senses, so it's possible for Pewter to store A-pewter strength, which should then work with compounding.

Yeah, here's a WoB:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

[Frustration]

 

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I mean, he could compound A-pewter in nicrosil, getting infinite strength and durability, but that's not what I meant. you can store the strength that you get from A-pewter in a pewtermind, which does not increase your muscle mass. Doing this would "key" the metalmind to the strength from A-pewter, and you could then burn it to compound that effect.

Just now, Nameless said:

Yeah, here's a WoB:

 

but that is just using A-Pewter, which you can only use so much of at a time.

Now if you store it as you said above, you can pull out more than you could get from just burning, but compounding it wouldn't get you much extra.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

but that is just using A-Pewter, which you can only use so much of at a time.

Now if you store it as you said above, you can pull out more than you could get from just burning, but compounding it wouldn't get you much extra.

Uh.... yes it would. That's the entire point of compounding.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

Uh.... yes it would. That's the entire point of compounding.

You get the same amount of F-gold as you would have gotten A-gold the only difference is which one you get compounding takes the F-store and uses that to key the A-burn to that Feruchemidic attribute.

[Aspiring Writer]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You get the same amount of F-gold as you would have gotten A-gold the only difference is which one you get compounding takes the F-store and uses that to key the A-burn to that Feruchemidic attribute.

We're turning A-pewter into an F attribute, so it would end up giving you more.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

You get the same amount of F-gold as you would have gotten A-gold the only difference is which one you get compounding takes the F-store and uses that to key the A-burn to that Feruchemidic attribute.

Well, you would get all of the investiture in pure strength, rather than strength, durability, healing, and dexterity. But the most important thing you would get is the ability to store and use it for however long you want it.

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

We're turning A-pewter into an F attribute, so it would end up giving you more.

It's the same investiture amount.

14 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, you would get all of the investiture in pure strength, rather than strength, durability, healing, and dexterity. But the most important thing you would get is the ability to store and use it for however long you want it.

But if you compound you get muscle mass, not A-pewter. If you store A-pewter and then pulled it out in vast quantities you could make it work but compounding would make it F-pewter.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

But if you compound you get muscle mass, not A-pewter. If you store A-pewter and then pulled it out in vast quantities you could make it work but compounding would make it F-pewter.

No, because the attribute you get is tied to the attribute you store in it.

[Aspiring Writer]

Guys, we can just compare this to Tin, which does work with compounding. You store your sense of smell or touch and then multiply it, you don't get the same amount. So A-Pewter being compounded would work.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

No, because the attribute you get is tied to the attribute you store in it.

But then you just get A-pewter as if you where burning.

You might as well burn, it would be so much easier, and you would get the same amount.

You're powering Feruchemy with allomancy changing the results but not the input you would get the same amount of power as if you had just burnt pewter.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

But then you just get A-pewter as if you where burning.

Maybe, but even so, you would be able to store up all of the pewter, and then use it all at once in order to get super-strength.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

 you would be able to store up all of the pewter, and then use it all at once in order to get super-strength.

That's what I've been saying.

But you don't compound to get that.

You can just tap it.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

That's what I've been saying.

But you don't compound to get that.

You can just tap it.

So you can store healing and dexterity in a pewtermind?

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

So you can store healing and dexterity in a pewtermind?

Maybe, it's a side effect of Pewter, and if you mess with perception enough you can do a lot of weird stuff.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Maybe, it's a side effect of Pewter, and if you mess with perception enough you can do a lot of weird stuff.

I don't think so.

[BenduLuke he/him]

Been gone for a few days. Hoid can't easily win a fight even with all his forms of investiture because he cannot kill just one of his limits.
TLR had so many abilities that he never really mastered most of them to the point where he compounded them. He seems to have used only the most obvious compounding abilities. after all we never see him steelrun, or take full advantages of compounded pewter or tin. That's also why Kelsior had Vin train with others for their specialized abilities even though he had all their allomantic abilities himself, but was really only a master of steel and iron. Wax and Wayne were masters of their 2 metallic abilities to the point of using the reasonances of their abilities as much as the abilities themselves and reaching savant levels as well.

I think that it is the twinborn not the full mistborn in most cases that would create the best and most successful matches between Mistborn and Radiant.

I mentioned that a Bronze twin might be able to become the most dangerous opponent to any invested because with time and resources they could develop weapons to kill any invested due to the fact that they would be able to determine the anti-Light or anti-investiture frequency and amplitude of all other forms of investiture. It was noted that they might need Raesium to produce anti-light, but their are metals that can steal investiture-stormlight to create the anti-light from. Given the time even shards might be in danger from them. They are the potential Batman of the cosmere and Batman given time to prepare can kill even Superman.

Radiants may have an edge in overt power over mistborn though not all of them could claim thats the case. Size or Power does matter, but if your opponent can find a way to use your size or power against you will likely lose and with versatility inherent in mistborn powers that could very well be the case. For example a windrunner is chasing a mistborn and suddenly steel spike propels him into a wall or the ground in the direction he was lashing. or he lashes himself right into a metal bar or worse a bullet that was pushed toward him right in his path. both cases he was struck with the force of the lashes and the pushes-pulls of the allomancer. Wax could do that all day. Even worse with alluminum alloy tipped bullets which in this case might pierce even shard plate into the heart would stop any healing and might quickly prove fatal. Hollow points would cause even more damage. Before you say Aluminum is to soft there are some aluminum alloys that are harder than steel.

another contention I have had people say is that hemalurgic spikes need to go through the heart but upon further investigation that is not necessarily the case, but depends on what attribute you are harvesting. Most Hemalurgic spikes don't have a list of where they need to be used to perform their hemalurgic function. Aluminum doesn't steal abilities in nullifies them so could very well be lethal even to Heralds which are purely invested beings. No power, no investiture, no healing, no life. (aluminum and its alloys have been shown to stop healing until removed).

Why don't more people get creative and write about matches that include resonances and compounding combinations in vs Radiants. There are 10 Radiant orders vs over 256 mistborn combininations. That seems like a very fertile field instead of rehashing all these uber matchups like TLR vs Herald or Vin vs Windrunner (personally I think Vin would wipe the floor with most windrunners and against Kaladin it would be a toss up given that both are naturals in their abilities).

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Wax and Wayne were masters of their 2 metallic abilities to the point of using the reasonances of their abilities as much as the abilities themselves and reaching savant levels as well.

Wax was the only one to ever be savanted and it has since been retconned

9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

another contention I have had people say is that hemalurgic spikes need to go through the heart but upon further investigation that is not necessarily the case, but depends on what attribute you are harvesting. Most Hemalurgic spikes don't have a list of where they need to be used to perform their hemalurgic function. 

That is where you put it in the recipiant, the host you steal from has to have the spike pu through their heart.

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Why don't more people get creative and write about matches that include resonances and compounding combinations in vs Radiants. There are 10 Radiant orders vs over 256 mistborn combininations. That seems like a very fertile field instead of rehashing all these uber matchups like TLR vs Herald or Vin vs Windrunner (personally I think Vin would wipe the floor with most windrunners and against Kaladin it would be a toss up given that both are naturals in their abilities).

Oh, contrare there are 13 radiants(each bondsmith is different plus corrupted Mistspren) and 327 variants of the metalic arts not counting Hemalurgy

[Aspiring Writer]

27 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

after all we never see him steelrun

We see him steel run in TFE. He appears in front of Vin in a split second.

[BenduLuke he/him]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Wax was the only one to ever be savanted and it has since been retconned

That is where you put it in the recipiant, the host you steal from has to have the spike pu through their heart.

Oh, contrare there are 13 radiants(each bondsmith is different plus corrupted Mistspren) and 327 variants of the metalic arts not counting Hemalurgy

Check the coppermind (I have) to steal abilities spikes don't always need to be inserted into the heart and depending on where they are inserted it also determines what is stolen if especially if a spike can steal multiple abilities. The physical attribute that pewter steals is that way then you need to spike the right location to use that ability. There is a chart for some hemalurgic spikes and where they need to be used to steal then to give powers. Most metals are not actually on there so it is anyone's guess where to spike. Given what aluminum does it probably can do it anywhere. Even if it doesn't work anywhere as a Hemalurgic spike it and its alloys disrupts investiture where ever they penetrate until removed.

again check the coppermind.

KR have 10 combinations of abilities and fused have 9 indiviual but the same abilities as KR. Corrupted spren give the same 10 combinations as KR with a different shade of resonance.

You did notice that I said 264+ combinations for mistborn right?

15 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

We see him steel run in TFE. He appears in front of Vin in a split second.

I stand corrected never the less there is much more he could have compounded and which he could have created resonances with but didn't probably because he already felt invulnerable without practicing until he could create resonances and compounding beyond some basic obvious abilities.

Never the less it is still more interesting to me to see creative combinations of abilities in contests, abilities, and potential resonances including compounding instead of everyone trying to compare just the uber characters like TLR and the Heralds. If TLR and a Herald got in a fight it might kill the planet they were on before a winner could be called like Superman vs Zod and his 2 lieutenants.

TLR in the books never used his full potential.

[NameIess]

19 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Given what aluminum does it probably can do it anywhere. Even if it doesn't work anywhere as a Hemalurgic spike it and its alloys disrupts investiture where ever they penetrate until removed.

No, aluminum cannot do it anywhere. Yes, it works somewhere. That somewhere is probably the heart. No one would have any idea what it would do if it didn't work anywhere. Brandon has said that the easiest bind point is the heart.

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Check the coppermind (I have) to steal abilities spikes don't always need to be inserted into the heart and depending on where they are inserted it also determines what is stolen if especially if a spike can steal multiple abilities. The physical attribute that pewter steals is that way then you need to spike the right location to use that ability. There is a chart for some hemalurgic spikes and where they need to be used to steal then to give powers. Most metals are not actually on there so it is anyone's guess where to spike. Given what aluminum does it probably can do it anywhere. Even if it doesn't work anywhere as a Hemalurgic spike it and its alloys disrupts investiture where ever they penetrate until removed.

again check the coppermind.

You mean where it straight up says

Quote

Most common attributes are stolen through the heart

And forgeting the fact that we have yet to see an atribute stolen that wasn't taken from the heart?

And the fact that there is only the slightest hint of the possibility that non-heart bindpoints are possible?

 

29 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

.KR have 10 combinations of abilities and fused have 9 indiviual but the same abilities as KR. Corrupted spren give the same 10 combinations as KR with a different shade of resonance.

Yes but Each Bondsmith behaves differently, even with the same spren.

And Corrupted Truthwatchers see the future, not something their ordinary brothers can do.

30 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

You did notice that I said 264+ combinations for mistborn right?

1.I gave the exact number(minus Hero of Ages because that is kind of it's own thing)

2.Mistborn is a single type, not a catagory.

[NameIess]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And forgeting the fact that we have yet to see an atribute stolen that wasn't taken from the heart?

And the fact that there is only the slightest hint of the possibility that non-heart bindpoints are possible?

There are non-heart bindpoints Unless you didn't see the hemalurgy chart that says: "There are hundreds of hemalurgic bind points on the human body"

44 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I stand corrected never the less there is much more he could have compounded and which he could have created resonances with but didn't probably because he already felt invulnerable without practicing until he could create resonances and compounding beyond some basic obvious abilities.

Never the less it is still more interesting to me to see creative combinations of abilities in contests, abilities, and potential resonances including compounding instead of everyone trying to compare just the uber characters like TLR and the Heralds. If TLR and a Herald got in a fight it might kill the planet they were on before a winner could be called like Superman vs Zod and his 2 lieutenants.

TLR in the books never used his full potential.

TLR doesn't get resonances. The amount of powers he has cancels them out.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

There are non-heart bindpoints Unless you didn't see the hemalurgy chart that says: "There are hundreds of hemalurgic bind points on the human body"

They're called bindpoints whether it's the recipiant or the donor

and there are multiple even in the heart.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

Footnote: This clarifies two previous questions.
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)