Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[IndigoAjah he/him]

7 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I feel the fact he can move faster than they react would beat anything the heralds can do. Super speed is considered overpowered for a reason.

Nah, only if you really limit what you mean by anything. 

 

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Give me a counter the heralds can do when he moves faster than they can think.

This has been heavily contested every time I bring it up, so I have no doubt you will do the same, but just offering an alternative perspective, and going to just leave it at that.

 

Activating abilities is at the speed of thought. Assuming both combatants are placed opposite each other in a location, with no abilities active prior to beginning the bout. Disembodied voice says "Fight"

 

1. At the same time - The Lord Ruler activates Speed - Battar activates Transportation

2. The lord ruler is alone on the physical realm with no way to reach the cognitive realm - Battar is now in the cognitive realm

3. WoB state that a fabrial soulcaster (not radiant) can soulcast metal minds destroying the contents

4. Radiant soulcasters are more powerful and have less limitations than fabrial soulcasters

5. Herald's have access to levels of investiture to fuel their surges no radiant could ever hope to attain

6. Battar from the cognitive realm soulcasts all of the lord ruler's metal minds to air destroying them

7. The Lord Ruler immediately ages at an accelerated rate and dies of old age.

[Frustration]

I once saw someone suggest sending TRL to the cognitive and leaving him to drown.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Just now, Ookla The Frustrated said:

I once saw someone suggest sending TRL to the cognitive and leaving him to drown.

I assume he has stored air (and health too!) so it would take a long time!!!

[Frustration]

Just now, IndigoAjah said:

I assume he has stored air (and health too!) so it would take a long time!!!

But if he's tapping steel that won't be long for an outside observer.

[Aspiring Writer]

3 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

But if he's tapping steel that won't be long for an outside observer.

He can stop tapping steel and prolong it, and even make a time bubble to make time pass quicker. Also, I would think heavily invested metalminds will resist soul casting, especially the TLR. And again, we don't know how fast they can get to the cognitive realm, he might still kill them in the blink of an eye they are still in the physical.

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

He can stop tapping steel and prolong it, and even make a time bubble to make time pass quicker. Also, I would think heavily invested metalminds will resist soul casting, especially the TLR. And again, we don't know how fast they can get to the cognitive realm, he might still kill them in the blink of an eye they are still in the physical.

Thing is, there is a floor to the cognitive realm. TLR could just increase his mass to sink to the bottom faster, and then run across the floor with speed till he reached "the shore". Shallan and co have shown that to be possible. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Pathfinder

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Thing is, there is a floor to the cognitive realm TLR could just increase his mass to sink to the bottom faster, and then run across the floor with speed till he reached "land". Shallan and co have shown that to be possible. 

And he can tap Zinc now to work that out very quickly.

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Thing is, there is a floor to the cognitive realm TLR could just increase his mass to sink to the bottom faster, and then run across the floor with speed till he reached "land". Shallan and co have shown that to be possible. 

Yeah, definitely. That or try and use some coins or other metal and jump to ground. If something like drowning could kill him, I think one of the kings would have killed him early on. They flayed him alive and he still didn't die

 

1 minute ago, IndigoAjah said:

And he can tap Zinc now to work that out very quickly.

Yeah, he can speed up his won thoughts, and steel does that as a side benefit.

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Thing is, there is a floor to the cognitive realm. TLR could just increase his mass to sink to the bottom faster, and then run across the floor with speed till he reached "the shore". Shallan and co have shown that to be possible. 

They could create air pockets and where near the shore to start with

8 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

And he can tap Zinc now to work that out very quickly.

Zinc only let's you think faster it does not make you smarter,

6 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Yeah, definitely. That or try and use some coins or other metal and jump to ground. If something like drowning could kill him, I think one of the kings would have killed him early on. They flayed him alive and he still didn't die

 

Yeah, he can speed up his won thoughts, and steel does that as a side benefit.

Dropping someone in the middle of an ocean, especially one as powerful as him is not easy, unless you have an always oresent ocean.

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Ookla The Frustrated said:

They could create air pockets and where near the shore to start with

Zinc only let's you think faster it does not make you smarter,

Dropping someone in the middle of an ocean, especially one as powerful as him is not easy, unless you have an always oresent ocean.

if someone restraint him long enough to flay him, I do think someone could have taken him to the nearest ocean or large lake and dropped him in.

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Also, I would think heavily invested metalminds will resist soul casting, especially the TLR.

Again, WoB confirm that a fabrial soulcaster, in all its limitations, can transform a metal mind. The only thing unique about TLR's metal minds is the amount of storage. A herald has access to levels of investiture no radiant could ever hope to. Users of transformation are used to pushing through investiture. These are all WoB that if you like I will be happy to provide. 

18 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

And again, we don't know how fast they can get to the cognitive realm, he might still kill them in the blink of an eye they are still in the physical.

It is the surge of motion, and instantaneous transfer. 

 

But as I said, this has been heavily argued before so I do not wish that to happen again. I will be happy to provide the WoB I referenced if you like, but you asked for a way past that situation, and I was providing one I believe could succeed. 

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Again, WoB confirm that a fabrial soulcaster, in all its limitations, can transform a metal mind. The only thing unique about TLR's metal minds is the amount of storage. A herald has access to levels of investiture no radiant could ever hope to. Users of transformation are used to pushing through investiture. These are all WoB that if you like I will be happy to provide. 

It is the surge of motion, and instantaneous transfer. 

 

But as I said, this has been heavily argued before so I do not wish that to happen again. I will be happy to provide the WoB I referenced if you like, but you asked for a way past that situation, and I was providing one I believe could succeed. 

Please provide the WoB, because you can technically push on metalminds, it's just harder and gets harder the more full it is, so I think that even if it's possible, it will follow the same rules as allomancy and metalminds.

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Please provide the WoB, because you can technically push on metalminds, it's just harder and gets harder the more full it is, so I think that even if it's possible, it will follow the same rules as allomancy and metalminds.

 

(soulcaster (fabrial) can soulcast invested objects like a full metal mind because they are used to pushing through the resistance)

Questioner

Can you Soulcast an Invested object?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans.

Questioner

So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

 

(Herald can access levels of investiture no radiant could attain)

WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

BookCon 2018 (June 1, 2018)

 

 

(honorblades were fueled directly by honor)

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

 

 

 

So based on the information provided, I concluded that:

1. fabrial soulcasters are limited by the amount of stormlight in their gemstones, how they are attuned, and the proficiency of the individual using it

2. Radiant soulcasters are limited by the amount of stormlight they can hold and oath level, and the proficiency of the individual using it

3. Herald Battar is not limited by the amount of investiture, and she had thousands of years of experience to account for proficiency

4. If fabrial soulcasters despite their limitations, can still push through a metal mind's investiture and soulcast a full gold metal mind, then I think it is entirely possible that a herald with limitless investiture, and centuries worth of proficiency can soulcast what amounts to be really full normal metal minds. TLR as a sliver and a compounder changes nothing in the nature of the metal mind he uses. All that means is he can fill it to the brim, and fill many many of them. But at the end of the day, they are still normal metal minds. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Aspiring Writer]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 

(soulcaster (fabrial) can soulcast invested objects like a full metal mind because they are used to pushing through the resistance)

Questioner

Can you Soulcast an Invested object?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans.

Questioner

So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

 

(Herald can access levels of investiture no radiant could attain)

WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

BookCon 2018 (June 1, 2018)

 

 

(honorblades were fueled directly by honor)

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

 

 

 

So based on the information provides, I concluded that:

1. fabrial soulcasters are limited by the amount of stormlight in their gemstones, how they are attuned, and the proficiency of the individual using it

2. Radiant soulcasters are limited by the amount of stormlight they can hold and oath level, and the proficiency of the individual using it

3. Herald Battar is not limited by the amount of investiture, and she had thousands of years of experience to account for proficiency

4. If fabrial soulcasters despite their limitations, can still push through a metal mind's investiture, then I think it is entirely possible that a herald with limitless investiture, and centuries worth of proficiency can soulcast what amounts to really full normal metal minds. TLR as a sliver and a compounder changes nothing in the nature of the metal mind he uses. All that means is he can fill it to the brim, and fill many many of them. But at the end of the day, they are still normal metal minds. 

The thread proves my point that it does get harder the fuller it gets, so a completely full metal mind like we see in BoM would resist even battar for a least a bit, assuming it's even possible to soulcast metalminds that full even with a shards power. It is technically possible to soul cast aluminum too, but it would take the power of three shards.

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

The thread proves my point that it does get harder the fuller it gets, so a completely full metal mind like we see in BoM would resist even battar for a least a bit, assuming it's even possible to soulcast metalminds that full even with a shards power. It is technically possible to soul cast aluminum too, but it would take the power of three shards.

I give you a glass. You fill it to the brim with water from a pitcher. The soulcaster turns it into air

I give you 20 glasses. You have an ocean you pump from filling every single glass. The soulcaster still turns it into air

I give you a solid block of metal. You cannot fill it with anything no matter how hard you try. The soulcaster cannot change it

 

It does not matter how vast the ocean is, the container is still the container. The WoB state clearly it is a full metal mind that the fabrial soulcaster changes. Does not matter how much power TLR has access to, you cannot fill a container up more than full. He has multiple containers. He can draw from multiple containers. He can produce more of any attribute to fill those containers. But that does not change the nature of the container, and if they are all gone, he cannot create more. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

I give you a glass. You fill it to the brim with water from a pitcher. The soulcaster turns it into air

I give you 20 glasses. You have an ocean you pump from filling every single glass. The soulcaster still turns it into air

I give you a solid block of metal. You cannot fill it with anything no matter how hard you try. The soulcaster cannot change it

 

It does not matter how vast the ocean is, the container is still the container. The WoB state clearly it is a full metal mind. Does not matter how much power TLR has access to, you cannot fill a container up more than full. He has multiple containers. He can draw from multiple containers. He can produce more of any attribute to fill those containers. But that does not change the nature of the container, and if they are all gone, he cannot create more. 

It says filled, not completely filled, and BS confirms the same rules that make Metalminds hard to push also make them hard to soulcast, so it would make sense to assume that a metalmind like we see in BoM would be extremely hard to soul cast even for a herald. Your example makes no sense, as that glass is turning metal the fuller it gets.

[Frustration]

Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

It says filled, not completely filled, and BS confirms the same rules that make Metalminds hard to push also make them hard to soulcast, so it would make sense to assume that a metalmind like we see in BoM would be extremely hard to soul cast even for a herald. Your example makes no sense, as that glass is turning metal the fuller it gets.

Vin was able to pull on the Metalminds, I see no reason Battar can't soulcast them

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Vin was able to pull on the Metalminds, I see no reason Battar can't soulcast them

She struggled even with the help of a god. Battar might be able to, but if the metalminds were like those in BoM, which seem to be the most filled metalminds we have seen, I think it would take Battar quite a bit of time and struggle to soulcast them. Can do it doesn't mean it's easy or quick.

[Frustration]

Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

She struggled even with the help of a god. Battar might be able to, but if the metalminds were like those in BoM, which seem to be the most filled metalminds we have seen, I think it would take Battar quite a bit of time and struggle to soulcast them. Can do it doesn't mean it's easy or quick.

There is no reason for the Bands of Mourning to be more invested than the Bands of Mourning. I'm hilarious.

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

There is no reason for the Bands of Mourning to be more invested than the Bands of Mourning. I'm hilarious.

There might be actually. TLR did not have an infinite source of atium, he had a lot circulating and with the Kandra. They might not have been full. And remeber, the reason they were difficult were less that they were metalminds and that they were in his skin. I believe vin pushes them once they are separated.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

There might be actually. TLR did not have an infinite source of atium, he had a lot circulating and with the Kandra. They might not have been full. And remeber, the reason they were difficult were less that they were metalminds and that they were in his skin. I believe vin pushes them once they are separated.

Like i said, this has been heavily contested, so ive been though all this before. I already got the:

 

1. He said full but not FULL full

2. Sanderson didnt hear him say full

3. That makes no sense so cannot be regardless if it says that

 

So i will respond to one or two more things and then leave it be. Again the only reason i posted it is you wanted to hear if there was a way around his speed. That to me is the way around it. Here are my responses:

1. Base fabrial soulcaster can push through the invesititure of a full gold metal metal

2. Radiant soulcasters are stronger than even that, so one would imagine they could do even more

3. Heralds are fueled directly by honor. That makes them on the level of vin when she was directly fueled by preservation. Not when she pushed the bracers off TLR. I mean when she leveled kredick shaw using the trace metal elements in its stone.

 

That level of strength is what i am referring to that would push through the investiture of TLR's bands easily and should be able to change the bands of mourning as well. 

Finally, lets say it does take time. That doesnt matter because as I stated in the beginning,  the first thing batter does is transfer to the Cognitive realm where TLR cannot reach. But she can still soulcast his metal minds. So she could take as long as she needs without fear of reprisal

Edited December 18, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Master Silver]

So from this discussion, and I'm not sorry at all for putting Nale up against the Lord Ruler, it seems like certain surges would fair far better against a full born than others. Some surges like soul casting would make it so that the fullborn loses their powers. Other surges, like regrowth seem to make radiants (and I imagine heralds heal faster). The closest thing to a fullborn we have in Stormlight Archives is Nale (only herald who joined the knights radiant). So Nale has plate, honor blade, and for good measure another shardblade (which can be whatever weapon he needs to include a shield). Honor blades allow Heralds to draw on the same amounts of power that Vyn did. The Lord Ruler vs a Herald is about as good a match up as we will get TLR (1000 years experience vs Heralds (5000 years). Also, this fight would have them both using swords essentially, so not gun vs sword. But if you take a Herald (your choice) and then have them bond a radiant spren of a different order, does this fight become lopsided the other way?

 

Side note, we may see heralds bond spren to help fill cracks in their spirit webs. Seems reasonable to me

[Aspiring Writer]

4 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

So from this discussion, and I'm not sorry at all for putting Nale up against the Lord Ruler, it seems like certain surges would fair far better against a full born than others. Some surges like soul casting would make it so that the fullborn loses their powers. Other surges, like regrowth seem to make radiants (and I imagine heralds heal faster). The closest thing to a fullborn we have in Stormlight Archives is Nale (only herald who joined the knights radiant). So Nale has plate, honor blade, and for good measure another shardblade (which can be whatever weapon he needs to include a shield). Honor blades allow Heralds to draw on the same amounts of power that Vyn did. The Lord Ruler vs a Herald is about as good a match up as we will get TLR (1000 years experience vs Heralds (5000 years). Also, this fight would have them both using swords essentially, so not gun vs sword. But if you take a Herald (your choice) and then have them bond a radiant spren of a different order, does this fight become lopsided the other way?

 

Side note, we may see heralds bond spren to help fill cracks in their spirit webs. Seems reasonable to me

I will mention that Nale is not able to access the same level of Stormlight with his honorblade like he used to now that honor is dead, so he is little more than a slightly more powerful skybreaker. Not really a match for TLR. 

Edit: also if the heralds get to bond with another spren, then so does TLR. I will allow Nale as he has bonded a spren, but any hypotheticals will be met will equal hypotheticals.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Aspiring Writer

[Frustration]

Personally Scandrial is only able to contend because of 1 fullborn. That's the only thing they have, Assuming it's an all out Roshar vs Scandrial, there is a very good chance that Roshar wins, Heralds, Fused, more shards, antInvestiture, antiRhythms, suppresion Fabrials, and it will only go down hill from here we haven't even seen full Voidbinding yet.

2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I will mention that Nale is not able to access the same level of Stormlight with his honorblade like he used to now that honor is dead, so he is little more than a slightly more powerful skybreaker. Not really a match for TLR. 

Edit: also if the heralds get to bond with another spren, then so does TLR. I will allow Nale as he has bonded a spren, but any hypotheticals will be met will equal hypotheticals.

Yes Hypotheticals like still being alive.

Thing is Roshar Hypotheticals should meet Scandrian Hypotheticals, you can't give Scandrians Spren, any more than you can give Rosharans metalminds.