Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[+Bzhydack]

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Bronze reveals that each metal has its own pulse, not that there is a single pulse for all allomancy. That is one of the differences between the Scadrian magic system and the Rosharan system. If a seeker could determine the aluminum pulse they would likely be able to nullify any form of investiture, except by its nature discovering that pulse might be virtually impossible.

Is also many Rythms of Roshar, they attract different types of Spren, different types of Spren granted different Forms for Singer, including Forms of Power. And all Forms of Power are affected by Anti-tone of Odium, there is no need for different accords for each.

This is not about characteristic usage of power, this is about power alone. Like you can use electricity in various machines in your house, but when you cut off elecrticity, all of them stops working.

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Alumminum instantly removes itself.

We actualy dont know how aluminum works when burned alone, without other metals. Maybe bigger reserves of other metals speed burnig up. What actualy make sence, because Duralumin behave similar.

37 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Why do you think Ferruchemists can almost always beat Radiants?

Two steps:

1. Get behind Radiant with steel speed.

2. Crush helmet and ripp off head with pewter strengh and steel speed.

And this is just the simplest way.

39 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

How would ettmetal affect stormlight and surges?

Probably can store them, with proper charge can cancel them.

[BenduLuke]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

When Vin burned it in TFE she had no metals left, none, aluminum included.

That's not quite true.

An aluminum Misting is known as an Aluminum Gnat. Burning aluminum causes the body to instantly metabolize its metal reserves without any other effect.^[9] As such, an Aluminum Gnat gains no useable powers from their Allomancy,^[4] however, it can be used to negate effects of other Investiture such as Withering.^[10] Only Allomantically relevant metals can be burned away.^[11] Allomancy does not affect aluminum even though the metal itself is Allomantically viable.^[12]

Since aluminum can shield against emotional Allomancy, those who can afford to, often wear hats with aluminum lining.^[13] It can also be used to block Allomantic bronze.^[14]

Savantism[edit]

If someone were able to burn the amount of aluminum needed to become an Allomantic savant with the metal, it may be possible to cleanse their spirit of unwanted effects of Investiture.

[BenduLuke]

19 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Is also many Rythms of Roshar, they attract different types of Spren, different types of Spren granted different Forms for Singer, including Forms of Power. And all Forms of Power are affected by Anti-tone of Odium, there is no need for different accords for each.

This is not about characteristic usage of power, this is about power alone. Like you can use electricity in various machines in your house, but when you cut off elecrticity, all of them stops working.

We actualy dont know how aluminum works when burned alone, without other metals. Maybe bigger reserves of other metals speed burnig up. What actualy make sence, because Duralumin behave similar.

Two steps:

1. Get behind Radiant with steel speed.

2. Crush helmet and ripp off head with pewter strengh and steel speed.

And this is just the simplest way.

Probably can store them, with proper charge can cancel them.

Feruchemist doing what you said depends on the size of the minds. A steel twin or pewter twin might be more effective at accomplishing what you said.

What do you mean each spren has their own rythm? Their rythm seems dependant on the shard they represent. (Honor, Cultivation, Odium, or other). Metals are known to have unique pulses not dependant on but perhaps influence by the shard source. The question is does a hemalugic steel push have a different pulse than a genetic steel push? If so then Trell spikes will have different pulses than Ruin spikes, which in turn will be different than natural allomantic and feruchemical pulses. Some hemalugic metals can store one of several attibutes so does a steel spike used for one attribute have the same pulse as a steel spike used for another attribute and the same pulse as that metal in allomancy or feruchemy?

Metals appear to work like different amps., volts,  and currents. of electricity while all Rosharan light works as different currents AC vs DC but one voltage or amp. Or perhaps Roshar is a DC analog with different voltages, and Scadrial metals are an AC analog with different amps., resitance, and volts. There are 3 primary tones and their resonances on Roshar, but there are at least 16 primary pulses on Scadrial related just to allomancy with at least 4 applications or sources.

[BenduLuke]

20 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Is also many Rythms of Roshar, they attract different types of Spren, different types of Spren granted different Forms for Singer, including Forms of Power. And all Forms of Power are affected by Anti-tone of Odium, there is no need for different accords for each.

Maybe this will make more sense. On Roshar you need 1 power source to access all 10 surges or all 9 forms(Venli would likely need an anti Rythm of war light to be fully stopped). On Scadrial you need 16 power sources to access all 16 powers in each magic system. Hemalurgy whether accessed through Ruin or Trell spikes need at least 2 power sources for each ability, the spike and the metal fuel. 

The power sources of Roshar and Scadrial are not analogous.

Edited January 21, 2021 by BenduLuke

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Maybe this will make more sense. On Roshar you need 1 power source to access all 10 surges or all 9 forms(Venli would likely need an anti Rythm of war light to be fully stopped). On Scadrial you need 16 power sources to access all 16 powers in each magic system. Hemalurgy whether accessed through Ruin or Trell spikes need at least 2 power sources for each ability, the spike and the metal fuel. 

The power sources of Roshar and Scadrial are not analogous.

Metal is not the power, merely an access key, the power comes from Preservation, Stormlight is more analougous to the mists which is accesible can be used for all metals.

They are very analogous.

[+Bzhydack]

28 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

What do you mean each spren has their own rythm?

Weve seen many Emotin Rythms sing by Singers or played (Rythm of Joy, Amusment etc). Each atracts other Spren.

So there are "Main" Rythms, Pure Rythms, and lesser Rythms, but derived from those Pure Rythms (Venli told us straight, there are Ryhtms from Cultivation/Honor, "Old Rythms" and from Odium, "New Rythms").

On Scadrial should be similar.

28 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Metals are known to have unique pulses not dependant on but perhaps influence by the shard source. The question is does a hemalugic steel push have a different pulse than a genetic steel push? If so then Trell spikes will have different pulses than Ruin spikes, which in turn will be different than natural allomantic and feruchemical pulses. Some hemalugic metals can store one of several attibutes so does a steel spike used for one attribute have the same pulse as a steel spike used for another attribute and the same pulse as that metal in allomancy or feruchemy?

Mists were atracted by Allomancers and Allomancy, but repell by Hemalurgists. Behave similar to Light and Tone/Anti-Tone, dont you think? And we know Preservation and Ruin are DIRECT oposites, so its possible that ones Pure Tone is Others Anti-Tone.

17 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

On Roshar you need 1 power source to access all 10 surges or all 9 forms(Venli would likely need an anti Rythm of war light to be fully stopped). On Scadrial you need 16 power sources to access all 16 powers in each magic system. Hemalurgy whether accessed through Ruin or Trell spikes need at least 2 power sources for each ability, the spike and the metal fuel. 

This is simply wrong.

Metals arent power source. They are Focus, mean wire, chanel for power (unless it is Atium). Shards are power. Like (still electricity analogy) metals are different transformers for different A/V output. But still, if you cut off power, no matter witch transformer you have.

And @BenduLuke, stop double-posting, or you bring down the Admins wrath.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Bzhydack

[BenduLuke]

4 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Weve seen many Emotin Rythms sing by Singers or played (Rythm of Joy, Amusment etc). Each atracts other Spren.

So there are "Main" Rythms, Pure Rythms, and lesser Rythms, but derived from those Pure Rythms (Venli told us straight, there are Ryhtms from Cultivation/Honor, "Old Rythms" and from Odium, "New Rythms").

On Scadrial should be similar.

Mists were atracted by Allomancers and Allomancy, but repell by Hemalurgists. Behave similar to Light and Tone/Anti-Tone, dont you think? And we know Preservation and Ruin are DIRECT oposites, so its possible that ones Pure Tone is Others Anti-Tone.

This is simply wrong.

Metals arent power source. They are Focus, mean wire, chanel for power (unless it is Atium). Shards are power. Like (still electricity analogy) metals are different transformers for different A/V input. But still, if you cut off power, no matter witch transformer you have.

Most of the rhythms you mentioned are not used for investiture but for communication. Intention is important on Roshar so only by communicating the right intention can singers attract specific spren, but the Spren's source is what determines the anti-light not their own preferred tone. Most of those rhythms are like our change in tone of voice and body language.

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Metal is not the power, merely an access key, the power comes from Preservation, Stormlight is more analougous to the mists which is accesible can be used for all metals.

They are very analogous.

Mist seems analogous to stormlight but, it is broken into 16 different, unique or distinct pulses each paired to a metal to fuel allomancy, a mistborn has access to all 16 pulses within the mist, but a misting only has access to one. Feruchemy appears to be the resonance between Preservation and Ruin, so the metals would again have their own 16 unique pulses which explains why mist doesn't power Feruchemy.  Hemalurgy is purely of Ruin or Trell and because it mimics allomancy or feruchemy would probably need composite tones of the spike and the ability mimicked. Since mist is from preservation it cannot power hemalurgy. Besides mist never seems to fuel allomancy, it extends and enhances it in each case it has been used.

Scadrian magic has within it the general counter-investiture pulse for all magic systems.

[+Bzhydack]

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Besides mist never seems to fuel allomancy, it extends and enhances it in each case it has been used.

They can, if someone has big enough Connection with Preservation (Vin, Elend)

Also:

Quote

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 13, 2017)
#2 Dec. 13, 2017 Share Copy

 

LazarusRises

Can a Seeker burning bronze detect a Surgebinder using Stormlight? Do different Surges have different pulses?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and yes. Good questions.

 

Quote

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)
#1 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

 

Questioner

Would a Seeker burning bronze be able to tell what order of Knight Radiant someone is? Or what Surges they have access to?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but they'd have to be actively using it, right? So you could hear somebody -- for instance -- Lashing, but if you just saw somebody who'd drawn in Stormlight, you probably wouldn't be able to tell until they use that Stormlight, which it was. You'd be able to probably hear that they have the Stormlight.

Questioner

So the pulses are not unique to Scadrial's Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

No they're not. You'd be able to do that. In fact there are other things in the cosmere that are kind of the same sort of "radar detection" here and there, that you can read in the same way. Bronze is just the one of the best... way to do it -- being a Seeker is really handy for these reasons.

Being able to go off-planet with your Allomancy also is a pretty big advantage. It's really hard, for instance, to get a Surgebinder off of Roshar, because of the Connection stuff that's happening. In fact you may have heard in a prologue just recently someone complaining about that.

Each Surge has his own pulse. Like Metal.

So according to your argumentation, there is 10 powersources on Roshar. But this is false. Is 10 types of Focus (True Spren) what channel Investiture and shape it into different Surges, but Spren arent Powersource. Honor is.

 

[BenduLuke]

39 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

They can, if someone has big enough Connection with Preservation (Vin, Elend)

Also:

 

Each Surge has his own pulse. Like Metal.

So according to your argumentation, there is 10 powersources on Roshar. But this is false. Is 10 types of Focus (True Spren) what channel Investiture and shape it into different Surges, but Spren arent Powersource. Honor is.

 

Even with Vin and Elend it seemed as if it extended and enhanced the use of the metals they were already burning.

No on Roshar there are 3 generic power sources that seem to be able to power any invested ability. On Scadrial there are 16 different power sources that can be used singlely or in combination by 3 different systems. there are also 4 shards operating, 3 of which power hemalurgy.

With a Hemalurgic coinshot do you try for a Trell tone, Ruin Tone, Preservation Tone, or Harmony Tone? A Coin shot is steel allomancy powered by Preservation or Harmony, but hemalurgy is powered by Trell, Ruin, and Harmony. Do you need a resonant tone between Trell or Ruin and Harmony or Preservation to counter both the hemalurgy and allomancy?

It seems to me that you need a resonant tone between: a Tone for the steel, a tone for the allomancy, and a tone for the shard to generate an anti-tone vs a hemalurgic coin shot. A bloodmaker would likely need a different resonant tone, and a twin born another unique tone based on metal and shard.

Edited January 21, 2021 by BenduLuke

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Even with Vin and Elend it seemed as if it extended and enhanced the use of the metals they were already burning.

No on Roshar there are 3 generic power sources that seem to be able to power any invested ability. On Scadrial there are 16 different power sources that can be used singlely or in combination by 3 different systems. there are also 4 shards operating, 3 of which power hemalurgy.

With a Hemalurgic coinshot do you try for a Trell tone, Ruin Tone, Preservation Tone, or Harmony Tone? A Coin shot is steel allomancy powered by Preservation or Harmony, but hemalurgy is powered by Trell, Ruin, and Harmony. Do you need a resonant tone between Trell or Ruin and Harmony or Preservation to counter both the hemalurgy and allomancy?

It seems to me that you need a resonant tone between: a Tone for the steel, a tone for the allomancy, and a tone for the shard to generate an anti-tone vs a hemalurgic coin shot.

Bro, 

WoB

Spoiler

mooglefrooglian

My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 20, 2015)

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)

Also Trell does not Power any system,

As of Era 2 all magic on Scandrial is either powered by Harmony or corrupted.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Frustration

[+Bzhydack]

14 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Even with Vin and Elend it seemed as if it extended and enhanced the use of the metals they were already burning.

No on Roshar there are 3 generic power sources that seem to be able to power any invested ability. On Scadrial there are 16 different power sources that can be used singlely or in combination by 3 different systems. there are also 4 shards operating, 3 of which power hemalurgy.

With a Hemalurgic coinshot do you try for a Trell tone, Ruin Tone, Preservation Tone, or Harmony Tone? A Coin shot is steel allomancy powered by Preservation or Harmony, but hemalurgy is powered by Trell, Ruin, and Harmony. Do you need a resonant tone between Trell or Ruin and Harmony or Preservation to counter both the hemalurgy and allomancy?

It seems to me that you need a resonant tone between: a Tone for the steel, a tone for the allomancy, and a tone for the shard to generate an anti-tone vs a hemalurgic coin shot.

This is hopeless. After this thread, I would claim @Frustration Shard.

METAL ISNT POWER SOURCE!

Is just the chanel for Power. Like pipe with water in home. Did pipe is source of water? NO!

Vin and Elend used Mists AFTER they already burned their reserves out. Vin in fight against Inquisitors, Elend in final confrontation. Elend clearly told us that.

Trell not Invested in Scadrial enough yet. He just hacks exsisting systems.

For Allomancer you need Preservation Tone, for Feruchemist Harmony Tone, and for spiked/Hemalurgist Ruin Tone. Respective combination against respective combination.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Bzhydack

[BenduLuke]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Bro, 

WoB

  Reveal hidden contents

mooglefrooglian

My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 20, 2015)

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)

Also Trell does not Power any system,

As of Era 2 all magic on Scandrial is either powered by Harmony or corrupted.

So if I read those WOB's right all magic on Scadrial is powered by Perservation and could be countered by anti-preservation tone. Still you might need the tone to destroy the key in addition to anti-preservation tone.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

So if I read those WOB's right all magic on Scadrial is powered by Perservation and could be countered by anti-preservation tone. Still you might need the tone to destroy the key in addition to anti-preservation tone.

That is like having to use Anti-Adhesion on a Windrunner, that isn't how it works.

[+Bzhydack]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

So if I read those WOB's right all magic on Scadrial is powered by Perservation and could be countered by anti-preservation tone. Still you might need the tone to destroy the key in addition to anti-preservation tone.

Not all magic. Allomancy.

You dont need to destroy key. If you cut off power, key is meaningless.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Bzhydack

[BenduLuke]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is like having to use Anti-Adhesion on a Windrunner, that isn't how it works.

You can't imagine a tone that precise?

What do you think Ruin might power? Hemalurgy steals preservation's power. Do you think Ruin's power is to steal other powers? So feruchemy is stealing your own power for later use with negative interest if tapped for quick withdrawal?

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

You can't imagine a tone that precise?

What do you think Ruin might power? Hemalurgy steals preservation's power. Do you think Ruin's power is to steal other powers? So feruchemy is stealing your own power for later use with negative interest if tapped for quick withdrawal?

Ruin Powers Hemalurgy, his investiture facilitates the transfer, it is what rips spiritwebs apart and holds it in a spike.

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Ruin Powers Hemalurgy, his investiture facilitates the transfer, it is what rips spiritwebs apart and holds it in a spike.

Wouldn't the Allomantic or Feruchemical ability in the hemalurgic spike still be countered by an anti-preservation tone by your reasoning?

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

Wouldn't the Allomantic or Feruchemical ability in the hemalurgic spike still be countered by an anti-preservation tone by your reasoning?

Theoretically, we won't know unti it happens.

[BenduLuke]

Just now, Frustration said:

Theoretically, we won't know unti it happens.

We also don't know if there is one tone to counter all of Harmony's investiture except maybe Aluminum which nullifies all investiture anywhere.

[+Bzhydack]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

You can't imagine a tone that precise?

What do you think Ruin might power? Hemalurgy steals preservation's power. Do you think Ruin's power is to steal other powers? So feruchemy is stealing your own power for later use with negative interest if tapped for quick withdrawal?

 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Ruin Powers Hemalurgy, his investiture facilitates the transfer, it is what rips spiritwebs apart and holds it in a spike.

This. Ruin fuels Hemalurgy so anyone with spike would need Ruins Tone, no matter what power this spike granted.

We know Hemalurgy repels Preservations Investiture, so is plausible assume you need Ruin Tone, not Preservations, to match hemalurgy.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

We also don't know if there is one tone to counter all of Harmony's investiture except maybe Aluminum which nullifies all investiture anywhere.

Harmony is one Shard.

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Harmony is one Shard.

Harmony is a merged shard so is the resonance between 2 shards. We still don't know if there is one tone that counters all of Harmony's investiture.

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

 

This. Ruin fuels Hemalurgy so anyone with spike would need Ruins Tone, no matter what power this spike granted.

We know Hemalurgy repels Preservations Investiture, so is plausible assume you need Ruin Tone, not Preservations, to match hemalurgy.

So you believe you might need a Trell tone to counter Trell Hemalugic spikes, not a Harmony tone to counter metal born abilities (era 2)?

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Harmony is a merged shard so is the resonance between 2 shards. We still don't know if there is one tone that counters all of Harmony's investiture.

True enough,

[BenduLuke]

Just now, Frustration said:

True enough,

On Roshar a metal born could likely use Stormlight, Voidlight, or Otherlight to fuel their abilities; since they all seem like generic power souces and, metalborn investiture is inborn, and so are likely able to use any available power source to power their abilities; so long as they don't try to use the anti power source at the same time.

[+Bzhydack]

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

So you believe you might need a Trell tone to counter Trell Hemalugic spikes, not a Harmony tone to counter metal born abilities (era 2)?

Its possible, due to fact they arent Connected to Harmony (Harmony cannot see them).

Just now, BenduLuke said:

On Roshar a metal born could likely use Stormlight, Voidlight, or Otherlight to fuel their abilities; since they all seem like generic power souces and, metalborn investiture is inborn, and so are likely able to use any available power source to power their abilities; so long as they don't try to use the anti power source at the same time.

No, because they arent Connected to this types of Power. If someone would be metalborn AND Radiant, then maybe, but this is simply speculation. You need Connection to Shard to use its Power.