Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

31 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

So, with the allowance of all Rosharan magic, we have to talk about anti-investiture. What effect will it have on the battle? I'm thinking that it would be fairly easy to create anti-Preservation and Ruin light, but specific anti-metals light would be difficult.

You don't need anti(insert specific fused) to destroy them or specific surge to turn it off with a Fabrials. I don't think specific metals will be a problem.

Edit: cool thought, so if the allomantic pulses are like Rhythms could a singer sing to AntiSteel and just create a suppressor for coinshots?

Edited December 17, 2020 by Ookla The Frustrated

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla The Frustrated said:

You don't need anti(insert specific fused) to destroy them or specific surge to turn it off with a Fabrials. I don't think specific metals will be a problem.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. I was thinking for a dagger. Like you could explode people who were using Atium, or maybe use an anti-Ruin rhythm to disrupt their powers.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

Challenge accepted. I propose Nale. I have no idea what division does, but I imagine Nale is at least a match for Ishar in terms of combat ability. I know as a bondsmith Ishar wields some crazy amount of power. Fifth Ideal Radiant who happens to be a herald for the win :-p

TLR, infinite strength, speed, healing, can push on metals, perhaps even shardblades, infinite senses, can affect emotions to an extreme degree, can see slightly into the future if we include atium... that herald is dead.

[feruchemicalrockband]

Haven't read through the entire post yet, but something I have yet to see someone mention is how Enlightened Truthwatchers may be hard counters to atium. From what we know about how future-seeing abilities work in the cosmere, any time two abilities that have the potential to change the future (or negate future-sight) interact, they simply nullify each other. Seeing as Renarin (and now probably Rlain) are immune to Odium's future-sight, Enlightened Truthwatchers (Enlighteners? Futurewatchers?) must have some kind of innate anti-future ability, like electrum does for allomancy, except always on. Adding their enhanced healing from progression and living shardplate as an incredible defense, E-Truthwatchers nearly take the battle against a mistborn every time. The only way to counter this is probably using ranged attacks while burning atium, constantly wearing away stormlight before the E-Truthwatcher can get in range. This is assuming, of course, that all E-Truthwatchers are unable to create illusions like the regular ones, taking away the option of laser beams (really hoping we see this in SA 5). 

[NameIess]

Just now, feruchemicalrockband said:

Haven't read through the entire post yet, but something I have yet to see someone mention is how Enlightened Truthwatchers may be hard counters to atium. From what we know about how future-seeing abilities work in the cosmere, any time two abilities that have the potential to change the future (or negate future-sight) interact, they simply nullify each other. Seeing as Renarin (and now probably Rlain) are immune to Odium's future-sight, Enlightened Truthwatchers (Enlighteners? Futurewatchers?) must have some kind of innate anti-future ability, like electrum does for allomancy, except always on. Adding their enhanced healing from progression and living shardplate as an incredible defense, E-Truthwatchers nearly take the battle against a mistborn every time. The only way to counter this is probably using ranged attacks while burning atium, constantly wearing away stormlight before the E-Truthwatcher can get in range. This is assuming, of course, that all E-Truthwatchers are unable to create illusions like the regular ones, taking away the option of laser beams (really hoping we see this in SA 5). 

Well, immediate actions are would be easier to predict, so I'm guessing no, corrupted Truthwatchers would not be able to cancel out Atium.

[feruchemicalrockband]

Just now, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Well, immediate actions are would be easier to predict, so I'm guessing no, corrupted Truthwatchers would not be able to cancel out Atium.

It's not the visions Renarin has that I'm talking about, it's his ability to constantly cancel out Odium's future-sight. This should work the same with atium. The cosmere has consistent rules, and any ability that affects one future seeing ability should do the same to another.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

It's not the visions Renarin has that I'm talking about, it's his ability to constantly cancel out Odium's future-sight. This should work the same with atium. The cosmere has consistent rules, and any ability that affects one future seeing ability should do the same to another.

No, it won't. The reason that Renarin cancels out future sight is his visions. He can see the future, and Odium doesn't know what about the future he can see, and that cancels out the future sight. Because the visions are rare, it would give the Truthwatcher at most one split in the shadows.

[feruchemicalrockband]

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

No, it won't. The reason that Renarin cancels out future sight is his visions. He can see the future, and Odium doesn't know what about the future he can see, and that cancels out the future sight. Because the visions are rare, it would give the Truthwatcher at most one split in the shadows.

It's not what Renarin knows that he can't see, it's Renarin's future itself. When Taravangian meets Odium at the end of Oathbringer he sees Renarin's name with rest of Odium's plans when he's trying to be intimidating, but his name is blacked out and from his name the rest of the words in the enhanced Diagram are blacked out as well. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but all the futures Odium is able to predict are depicted in gold but Renarin's name "blacks out the words into eternity". I'd say that's more than just what one or two odd visions are able to do. Plus, in RoW it's stated that the people close to Renarin are being affected by this too. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by feruchemicalrockband

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Like in the previous Mistborn vs. Radiant debate it's rather difficult to predict accurately because we've seen the highest potential in metalborn humanity in action (Fullborn, Wax w/Bands) but have yet to see a Full Radiant for more than a couple seconds. That being said,  if you're allowing a Fullborn with medalians and vindication and hazekiller rounds then you must allow a Bondsmith unchained with limitless connection powers,  suppressor fabrials and Raysium anti-investiture knives. If it comes down to tool usages then it's anyone's game.

But let's take away all the tools and see who can win based on sheer ability.  I am attempting to make the match up as even as possible initially. Bondsmiths don't get a blade so they are allowed Ishar's Honorblade as a weapon.  The Fullborn gets a knife or sword or spear, whatever. Four bags of spheres vs. 4 metal vials. In a scenario like that Fullborn wins nearly every time.  One simple reason.  Speed. Every ability the Fullborn brings to the table can be countered by a Radiant except 1, steel speed. 

[NameIess]

Just now, feruchemicalrockband said:

It's not what Renarin knows that he can't see, it's Renarin's future itself. When Taravangian meets Odium at the end of Oathbringer he sees Renarin's name with rest of Odium's plans when he's trying to be intimidating, but his name is blacked out and from his name the rest of the words in the enhanced Diagram are blacked out as well. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but all the futures Odium is able to predict are depicted in gold but Renarin's name "blacks out the words into eternity". I'd say that's more than just what one or two odd visions are able to do. Plus, in RoW it's stated that the people close to Renarin are being affected by this too. 

It is if you have no idea what those visions entail.

[feruchemicalrockband]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

It is if you have no idea what those visions entail.

Sorry I don't really understand your point I guess. Also, Vin was able to create a future shadow with skill only. Seeing the future would probably create more. Either way we probably won't know more about this until SA 7.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

Sorry I don't really understand your point I guess. Also, Vin was able to create a future shadow with skill only. Seeing the future would probably create more. Either way we probably won't know more about this until SA 7.

I'll explain after Brandon's livestream is over.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

TLR, infinite strength, speed, healing, can push on metals, perhaps even shardblades, infinite senses, can affect emotions to an extreme degree, can see slightly into the future if we include atium... that herald is dead.

*Coughs in  possible reincarnation cause Dalinar's going to fix the Oathpact but whatever*

1 hour ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

I'll explain after Brandon's livestream is over.

It's over

 

Only thing is Bondsmith will forge bond with Preservation and start using Mists, or Straight up Ascend, then you really get problems.

[NameIess]

All right, @feruchemicalrockband, here's my explanation. Renarin can see the future. Odium does not know what Renarin can see of the future. Therefore, Odium cannot predict what Renarin will do. It's like Atium. Say each of Renarin's visions cause Odiums vision to split once. Then all of the people who interact with Renarin also split once. Odium would eventually be able to figure out what Renarin saw, or maybe just how it had affected him, but Renarin has another vision before that happens.

[Frustration]

30 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

All right, @feruchemicalrockband, here's my explanation. Renarin can see the future. Odium does not know what Renarin can see of the future. Therefore, Odium cannot predict what Renarin will do. It's like Atium. Say each of Renarin's visions cause Odiums vision to split once. Then all of the people who interact with Renarin also split once. Odium would eventually be able to figure out what Renarin saw, or maybe just how it had affected him, but Renarin has another vision before that happens.

I don't think so, because otherwise like Atium running out, the second the vision ends Renarin's future would once again become visible..

[Master Silver]

13 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

TLR, infinite strength, speed, healing, can push on metals, perhaps even shardblades, infinite senses, can affect emotions to an extreme degree, can see slightly into the future if we include atium... that herald is dead.

lol no he doesn't have infinite strength. Just what he has stored up over 1000 years. The Lord Ruler is only a sliver. Shardblades are heavily invested, and honor blades are even more heavily invested. Atium of course or durallimin (spelling) gives TLR the edge, but from watching Ishar fight in RoW, I had a thought. We know that seeing the future is something all Shards can do, some are just better at it than others. SPOILER  Atium was a part of you know who, just like the blades are a part of Honor. Since we don't know everything the honor blades can do, why couldn't the blades also grant the heralds similar abilities in combat like Atium? All I have for that speculation is Ishar vs the windrunners. Also, Odium was/is convinced that Surge binding is the best magic system and he knows about the other magic systems. I think we are all underestimating the heralds

[Aspiring Writer]

24 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

lol no he doesn't have infinite strength. Just what he has stored up over 1000 years. The Lord Ruler is only a sliver. Shardblades are heavily invested, and honor blades are even more heavily invested. Atium of course or durallimin (spelling) gives TLR the edge, but from watching Ishar fight in RoW, I had a thought. We know that seeing the future is something all Shards can do, some are just better at it than others. SPOILER  Atium was a part of you know who, just like the blades are a part of Honor. Since we don't know everything the honor blades can do, why couldn't the blades also grant the heralds similar abilities in combat like Atium? All I have for that speculation is Ishar vs the windrunners. Also, Odium was/is convinced that Surge binding is the best magic system and he knows about the other magic systems. I think we are all underestimating the heralds

TLR is a god. He does effectively have infinite strength with compounding. The heralds are powerful, especially in their prime, but the Lord Ruler is a different beast entirely.

[Frustration]

46 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

TLR is a god. He does effectively have infinite strength with compounding. The heralds are powerful, especially in their prime, but the Lord Ruler is a different beast entirely.

Ishar beat 5 men all trained by Kaladin Stormblessed without trying. And he was average.

Imagine Taln who was so far ahead of the other Heralds that there wasn't any contest who was the best, that would truly be a sight to behold.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

lol no he doesn't have infinite strength. Just what he has stored up over 1000 years. The Lord Ruler is only a sliver. Shardblades are heavily invested, and honor blades are even more heavily invested.

He has compounding. For every single metal. He is insane. So as long as he has access to metals he can ingest, he has access to infinite stores of speed, and strength, and healing, and so much more. Even without his feruchemy, he is the most powerful mistborn who's ever been born. And with it he can compound nicrosil to be even more powerful. And he's had literally 1000 years to practice with all of his abilities, separately and together. If there is anyone who could pull on Blades, it's him. I'd bet on the lord ruler against basically any mortal in the cosmere (vin was lucky that she had a Shard on her side). Even if someone had Nightblood, he could probably beat them before it becomes an issue.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Ishar beat 5 men all trained by Kaladin Stormblessed without trying. And he was average.

Imagine Taln who was so far ahead of the other Heralds that there wasn't any contest who was the best, that would truly be a sight to behold.

Taln would certainly be a sight to behold, but TLR is capable of decimating armies. The guy can move faster than they can blink, punch hard enough to possibly break shardplate, heal from any wound they inflict on him (As well as have metalminds capable of resisting those blades)  duralumin enhance all of steel/iron after compounding weight, Atium to see the future... The heralds do not stand a chance.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Fullborn like TLR shouldn't be able to lose to anything less than a God if they fight properly. Of course, those two things were both TLR's problem...

However, Heralds are Slivers too. We have no idea what they are capable of. Based on what we know, TLR would cruise it but it's very possible Heralds are even more powerful than suspected. Ishar might be able to Connect him in some way that drains all his Metalminds, for example, and then he would instadie. 

Also, the amount of strength stored over 1000 years when you can Compound may as well be infinite by all practical measures. 

 

 

[Aspiring Writer]

4 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Fullborn like TLR shouldn't be able to lose to anything less than a God if they fight properly. Of course, those two things were both TLR's problem...

However, Heralds are Slivers too. We have no idea what they are capable of. Based on what we know, TLR would cruise it but it's very possible Heralds are even more powerful than suspected. Ishar might be able to Connect him in some way that drains all his Metalminds, for example, and then he would instadie. 

Also, the amount of strength stored over 1000 years when you can Compound may as well be infinite by all practical measures. 

 

 

I feel the fact he can move faster than they react would beat anything the heralds can do. Super speed is considered overpowered for a reason.

[Frustration]

Heralds also had infinate Stormlight.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Ookla The Frustrated

[IndigoAjah he/him]

7 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I feel the fact he can move faster than they react would beat anything the heralds can do. Super speed is considered overpowered for a reason.

Nah, only if you really limit what you mean by anything. 

 

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, IndigoAjah said:

Nah, only if you really limit what you mean by anything. 

 

Give me a counter the heralds can do when he moves faster than they can think.