RoW Chapter 19 Discussion

[the13thshard]

To point out the obvious, we finally get to see the application of the cover art! It'll be nice to see Shallan and Adolin alone together more now, I want to see how Adolin deals with her personalities, and how long that relationship can healthily work with Shallan drifting back to instability with Formless.

This will separate Kaladin from the other characters, though. It looks like he will have a more individual arc for the time being, though I hope we get more between him and the other main characters later. His return to being a surgeon can have a lot of emotional impacts, and without Adolin and even Dalinar around to help him out...it's a good thing he has Syl.

[+Harrycrapper]

19 minutes ago, 18th Shard said:

Here's a question: would the Radiant suppressor work on Renarin at all? Same question for Venli. Our two 'odd' cases both have some ties to both Honor and Odium. 

It seemed to work on Honor based investiture, so I would say that yes it probably would inhibit them from using Surges powered from Stormlight. Unless Renarin swore a 4th oath off screen somewhere. 

[DeployParachute]

Something I liked from this chapter:

Quote

“No. He would acknowledge it as evil, would say it stains his soul. He says… that’s the point of having a monarch. A man to wallow in blood, to be stained by it and destroyed by it, so that others might not suffer.”

I liked this line, pretty well written, striking.

Also has the added benefit of foreshadowing how Taravangian's view of leadership is going to be starkly contrasted by the one that Kaladin is going to come to understand during the course of the book.

[+Bliev]

9 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Oh gods...Brandon is doing it. He's really going to make the Maya plot point the thing that saves the envoy and brings the Honorspren back into allegiance with the humans. Adolin Kholin, the hero for the ages, I'm sure the Honorspren are going to love him. Such a monumental role tied to a character with the development depth of the coffee I spilled on my desk. Wonderful...

 

I was waiting for you to comment on this.  I'm going to have fun bantering back and forth with you re: adolin for the next few months, aren't I. 

In all seriousness, I liked this in-text confirmation of what Kal experienced from the Honorspren in Shadesmar too:

11 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Also, Kaladin is considered Grade-A cremhole to the spren of his own order. I actually like that, it'll make his next arc that much more satisfying upon completion.

Syl is an anomaly and, for being the "ancient daughter" is pretty condescended to, as if she was naive or stupid, I think. SF did this to her in WoK. I like that she has her autonomy to make her choices. I do think Sizgil is right here, though, Kal is a horrible diplomat. He's stubborn and ideological and honorable...very honorspren like, actually. haha

[DeployParachute]

3 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I was waiting for you to comment on this.  I'm going to have fun bantering back and forth with you re: adolin for the next few months, aren't I. 

Ayup. See you in a week and a half to discuss whether either of our expectations/standards were met about him. Now I just have to figure out how to bargain with my family for the time to actually read the book.

[+Bliev]

2 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Ayup. See you in a week and a half to discuss whether either of our expectations/standards were met about him. Now I just have to figure out how to bargain with my family for the time to actually read the book.

seems we are in the same boat. Usually I'd take the day off and read for 10 hours and be done. But RESPONSIBILITIES. blah. I'm doing a webinar Tuesday and have a faculty meeting Wednesday, but that's it. I'm reading the rest of the day. 

Well, if the toddler agrees, anyways. 

[Subvisual Haze]

Feeling legitimately disappointed that Kaladin isn't going to Lasting Integrity.  I loved him and the other Honorspren obstinately butting heads with each other in Oathbringer, and I was hoping for of the same here.

The whole mission feels kind of odd.  You'd think the other Radiant orders with zero or only a handful of actively bonded spren in the coalition would be a better recruitment/diplomacy target than the Honorspren, who while not universally agreeable, are very heavily represented.  This whole thing being whipped up on a passing comment from Sizgil's spren felt a little abrupt too.

Worried this is all just setup to leave Kaladin isolated.

Both Adolin and Dalinar feel at risk of being killed off in this book.  They just don't have much conflict or personal plot threads going forward.  Adolin could revive Maya and then die, or even sacrifice himself heroically in order to revive Maya and win back the support of the Honorspren.  Dalinar is personally holding this mess of a coalition/army together, him dying and throwing everything into chaos would be appropriate for a penultimate book in a series.

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

.The whole mission feels kind of odd.  You'd think the other Radiant orders with zero or only a handful of actively bonded spren in the coalition would be a better recruitment/diplomacy target than the Honorspren, who while not universally agreeable, are very heavily represented.  This whole thing being whipped up on a passing comment from Sizgil's spren felt a little abrupt too.

Military reasoning.  Right now they need air support.  Also they have a large number of potential windrunners who can't find spren.  We don't know about that condition for any other group of radiants.

[the13thshard]

3 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Both Adolin and Dalinar feel at risk of being killed off in this book.  They just don't have much conflict or personal plot threads going forward.  Adolin could revive Maya and then die, or even sacrifice himself heroically in order to revive Maya and win back the support of the Honorspren. 

I can see Adolin dying, but I hope not. Shallan is barely keeping it together now. If Adolin dies? She'll completely shatter. But then again, that could be very cool to see, so maybe I'm okay with that.

 

7 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Worried this is all just setup to leave Kaladin isolated.

It really feels like that

[Ramona Tehradin]

Everyone is throwing permutation-combination of words for Kaladin's 4th Ideal. 

Sandertwist- He's not gonna swear it. 

[the_archduke]

Why do I feel like people are rooting for Adolin to die. 

Any development involving Adolin... OH NOES, AduhLIN is going to DIEE!!!111!!!11  It may happen.  But nothing that was just released makes it any more likely than before.  Are these Shalladin shippers that refuse to admit defeat?

I am looking forward to the embassy storyline.  I am looking forward to Adolin and Shallan's relationship being explored further.  Those were some of my favorite chapters in Oathbringer.  

[+Bliev]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

Military reasoning.  Right now they need air support.  Also they have a large number of potential windrunners who can't find spren.  We don't know about that condition for any other group of radiants.

Agreed. They can't fight the Fused AND the Skybreakers effectively without more Honorspren. And surely the rest of the Honorspren know this--Syl and Kal surely do (they spoke of it in earlier chapters). This is military decision making, and probably been in the hopper among the Windrunners for awhile, hoping that the Honorspren would just change their minds on their own but realizing that they need more Windrunners if they're going to survive. 

I think Queen Fen's comment re: navies is apropos here too--windrunners are needed to prevent aerial attacks. The coalition doesn't have any other aerial fighters than the Windrunners.

 

[RazeU]

1. Odium putting T in a better state of mind consistently now? He definitely seems to have changed.

2. adolin wanting to see Maya in Shadesmar... too see if anything has changed since her summoning time has decreased? Very interested to see.

3. Super excited to see whatever Stoneward we get. I fully expect this to be a minor character but I’m still excited by this. 
 

4. Navani caught that Shallan had an ulterior motive lol. 

5. Jasnah and Dalinar playing right into Raboniel’s plan by leaving Urithiru. Good thing Navani will still be home.

Dammit this next week cannot pass fast enough.

[Gilphon]

Oh, hey, vindication on the 'Fused are using Aluminium' argument from last week. That's nice to have. 

That Shadesmar mission though. 'Let's send two main protagonists and three characters the audience barely knows- two of which don't even have names- on this dangerous mission together! I'm sure that won't work out badly for the non-protagonists!'

The structure of the book is becoming clear, though; Kaladin, Navani and Venli in Urithiru are the A-plot, Shallan and Adolin in Shadesmar are the B-plot, and Dalinar and Jasnah in Emul are the C-plot. And since it's the C-plot, we can probably assume the war in Emul will take most of the book, so won't we get to the Shinovar stuff until book 5.

[Govir]

4 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I'm kind of hoping the Stump is the Truthwatcher they send.

She *is* a Truthwatcher that we know, and Sanderson does like to bring back people we know many times. I could see it.

 

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I assume Hoid goes with Jasnah to Emuli. 

I assume Hoid goes where ever he wants  (or at least where ever he *needs* to be)

 

2 hours ago, RamonaTehradin said:

Everyone is throwing permutation-combination of words for Kaladin's 4th Ideal. 

Sandertwist- He's not gonna swear it. 

Sandertwist the 2nd (and minor Dawnshard spoiler, I guess?)

Spoiler

Lopen swears the 4th ideal before Kaladin.

 

4 hours ago, broccoli said:

PD: I don't know if you are from Argentina, but I like your name 

I am not. My name is an anagram of Vigor, which is a Puritanical name from another book series I've read. At the time of creation, I did do a few searches to see if it meant anything in other languages (than English), but I didn't get any hits. Do you know of a meaning to it?

[Master Silver]

So the Fused think that they are gonna walk into Urithiru and have most of the fighting Radiants gone.. It will be a cake walk right.. But Szeth will be around hopefully (I see Lift going and getting him), Kaladin being epic swearing the 4th ideal, new bondsmith (Navani) shows up and if the heralds' madness is mostly magical and the Sibling can fix it somehow, you are going to have a couple of Heralds who show up in not a great mood. Not to mention, I'm hoping Adoline and Shallan with a bunch of Honor Spren... so the Fused may end up getting slaughtered. And Renarin will be there too. That is how I hope it goes down.

 

I really don't want Dalinar and Jasinah to die. I have no idea what to do with Taravangian. The only way to deal with a snake safely is to kill it. What happens if Taravangian's troops do what Amarains did?

 

[Karnage]

4 hours ago, Bliev said:

Left behind with a demoted Kaladin and an outcast Renarin? Definitely setting up for a huge attack on Urithiru in the climax, maybe with Navani activating Urithiru.

 

4 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

So Navani, Kaladin & his family and Szeth & Nightblood will all be at the tower when the Fused try to take it. 

Honestly I think that the set up and reasoning behing Kaladin and Renarin staying behind (love the characterization) is genius. It gives us a chance to see Kaladin interact with people other then The Three and Adolin. 

Y'all are calling the Adolin theories too soon. I mean that sounds like an epic thing for him to do but I beleive that Brandon has a huge twist in there. I don't know what the twist is but it will probably be there. He knows just the way to lead our imaginations with a string only for us to find out that it is heading the opposite direction.

[Karger]

It looks like stage one of the fused plan is complete.  Dalinar and Jasnah will be out of the tower.  Raboniel's infiltration team is readying itself.  Now all they need is a good opportunity.

[Spinner16]

11 minutes ago, Karnage said:

Y'all are calling the Adolin theories too soon. I mean that sounds like an epic thing for him to do but I beleive that Brandon has a huge twist in there. I don't know what the twist is but it will probably be there. He knows just the way to lead our imaginations with a string only for us to find out that it is heading the opposite direction.

I'm glad someone else has faith in Brandon to pull this off. Historically, our ability as a fanbase to predict the endings of these books is not great, especially when we're steered towards a misdirection. I believe everything with Adolin and Maya is smoke and mirrors, and am still clinging to the theory that Adolin (sign of nine) Kholin will become Odium's champion.

[NameIess]

35 minutes ago, Govir said:

Sandertwist the 2nd (and minor Dawnshard spoiler, I guess?)

Why is that a Dawnshard spoiler?

[Michael Portz]

3 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Feeling legitimately disappointed that Kaladin isn't going to Lasting Integrity.  I loved him and the other Honorspren obstinately butting heads with each other in Oathbringer, and I was hoping for of the same here.

...

Worried this is all just setup to leave Kaladin isolated.

 

Do not worry! 
Ask yourself instead, who of the Radiant protagonists will be left to defend Urithuru when everybody else is on important missions ...

Edited November 10, 2020 by Michael Portz
Typo

[+Child of Hodor]

19 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

Do not worry! 
Ask yourself instead, who of the Radiant protagonists will be left to defend Urithuru when everybody else is on important missions ...

Yeah, he'll be needed. It will be a motely crew left at the tower. Zahel, Kaladin, Szeth, Renarin, Rushu and Navani. I'm guessing the Fused will succeed in taking the tower and these people will have to figure out how to take it back. That's the most interesting thing that could happen. it would also give Venli and Leshwi opportunities to interact with Kaladin. Moash will want to try to persuade Kaladin into giving up like he did earlier in the book. 

[Nathrangking]

6 hours ago, HipsterStick said:

Holy cow- I don’t think I’ve ever given Navani enough credit, she’s clearly more of a genius than I thought.

As a final chapter for part one, this felt very- understated? I suppose? Which is certainly not a bad thing, but it feels like it fits a different pattern than the other SA books. Still, I appreciated that we got some more Coalition politics. 

Also- Stonewards!!! Oh yeah! This is awesome! And it was really good to hear about the other Radiants as well. It makes me wonder (discussion of spoiler-free reviews under the cut)

  Hide contents

Are they going to be some of the newly introduced characters that become important so quickly? I mean, we’ve already seen Godeke once before, and now we have a Stoneward going with the envoy... it sounds as if they’re going to be interacting frequently with Adolin and Shallan at least.

Other thoughts:

-Good to see my boi Sigzil stepping up- though, I feel that Kaladin is going to be sorely missed.

-Taravangian terrifies me. At this point, I have NO idea how the coalition is going to deal with him.

-I think Sanderson definitely missed a chance to have Lift go with the envoy... if only for the potential humor alone.

Ah, but Venli must kidnap her to learn her ways!!!

5 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think that his intelligence is truly random.

I think that he confirmed that it is not. I can't seem to find the relevant WoB just now.

This was a warm chapter for the most part the calm before the highstorm!! Things are about to get rough.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, RazeU said:

1. Odium putting T in a better state of mind consistently now? He definitely seems to have changed.

2. adolin wanting to see Maya in Shadesmar... too see if anything has changed since her summoning time has decreased? Very interested to see.

Not sure about #1 - we see Taravangian looking "sharper" at this meeting and Navani reflects on how he's ditched the "slow of mind" routine, but we don't know that he doesn't just seclude himself on his "softer" days. The "gentle, kind, and slow of mind" persona was always one he'd projected as a consistent cover, not just when he really was that way in a severe way due to his "affliction."

As for #2 - as other people have pointed out before, it's not yet known if the things we saw happen between Adolin and Maya at Thaylen Fields - brushing his mind, coming to his hand in fewer than ten heartbeats, possibly even enabling what to me looked suspiciously like unconscous Stormlight healing when he just walked off from having a building collapsed on him by a Thunderclast, similar to how Dalinar "sensed he had done before" in knitting up serious wounds when he finally did it consciously - was something that only happened because Dalinar had supercharged everything Realmatically by bringing the Three Realms very close together for most of the battle.

But certainly it would seem Adolin is eager to see or to interact with Maya as a spren again, even if he hasn't been in continued dialog with her semi-zombie version since Thaylen Fields.

 

[dvoraen]

6 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

Why ... is the title of this chapter "Garnets" ??? From the coppermind:

So lets add the question: Why Lightweavers?

Garnets were also what are used in the suppression devices, so there's that angle to consider as well.