RoW Chapter 9 Discussion

[Harkain]

1 minute ago, agrabes said:

Kaladin is definitely being hit by either an Unmade or Odium.  Something is keeping him down unnaturally, it seems like his normal coping mechanisms just aren't working at all.  Or maybe this is just what it's like before you hit the 4th Oath for a Windrunner.

Tbh considering Odiums access to fortune it could legitimately just be him telling Moash what to say in order to screw with Kaladin the most. Tho that would also suggest there's a reason Odium would want to target Kaladin specifically.

[Shardsplinter]

This chapter was AMAZING

First up poor Kal, reading him like this is killing me. He's freezing in battle and putting people's life at risk? Men, things got really dark for him this past year...

"The honorspren cannot be trusted, the pen wrote. Not anymore. "   

 Shadesmar subplot just got a lot more interesting!!!

Shallan and Adolin's interaction were lovely and disturbing at the same time.Adolin confusing all the secret societies was  hilarious, there's a Lot to keep track off. May I add I'm also scared of Formless.

PS Charachters going Cosmere Aware!!! My long last dream is one step closer!(or was this just an eaater egg, no way? right)

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Shardsplinter

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Shardsplinter said:

Shallan and Adolin's interaction were lovely and distutbing at the same time. May I add I'm also scared of Formless.

Formless?

[Friendshipspren]

3 minutes ago, agrabes said:

 

Kaladin is definitely being hit by either an Unmade or Odium.  Something is keeping him down unnaturally, it seems like his normal coping mechanisms just aren't working at all.  Or maybe this is just what it's like before you hit the 4th Oath for a Windrunner.

They are a member of "Team Radiant." 

I think he's just depressed. It's hard ,esp when u live like kal and have no medication to ease it.

Team radiant. U mean they are a group within the coalition. 

Idk , if anyone would say that's wrong in the midst of a Desolation , not when u r fighting it. 

 

[Agent34]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Formless?

A potential fourth alter/persona. 

Quote

Radiant had no reply. And deep within Shallan, something else stirred. Formless. She had told herself that she would never create a new persona, and she wouldn’t. Formless wasn’t real.

...

The inflection point, past which she could not continue down this duplicitous path. Keeping secrets from Adolin was eating at her from the inside. Fueling Formless, pushing it toward a reality.

 

[Friendshipspren]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Formless?

The proto-personality within shallan's mind  that's seemingly on the verge of gaining the same autonomy as veil or radiant.

[Georion]

I'm getting a bit worried about Dawnshard spoilers, I feel like I already know more about the novella's plot than I should.

The chapter itself is amazing, I love how Adolin was a standin for like a non-obsessed fan, who probably mixes up all the secret societies, like "Oh, it's not them, then it must be that other... no? well..."

Really looking forward for the next Shallan vs Mraize encounter

[Karger]

1 minute ago, PrinceGenocide said:

The proto-personality within shallan's mind  that's seemingly on the verge of gaining the same autonomy as veil or radiant.

Ah.  Technically it is already there and formed it just has not yet been recognized.

Just now, Georion said:

Really looking forward for the next Shallan vs Mraize encounter

Indeed.  I wonder what Veil is going to do.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Karger

[theTruthshaper]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Ahhh.  I think they are referencing the fabrails she talked to Rushu about in chapter 6.  Spirit realm fabrails.  Very dangerous.

What fabrials are you talking about?

 

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Could it be Venli?  I admit I don't think it is but that would be a cool thing to do.

It could have been Venli, but the person did not talk like that. Also, how would Venli sneak in the ruby?

 

Why didn't Navani tell us which Radiant spren Soulcasters use was? Was it an Inkspren? Or a Cryptic? Or another spren altogether?

 

[Gears]

Name drops, time passes agonisingly slowly, information lacking, information slowing agony, passing time dropping names

[paperstones]

2 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

The proto-personality within shallan's mind  that's seemingly on the verge of gaining the same autonomy as veil or radiant.

I really think Formless is the "original" Shallan. Shallan was created to deal with whatever trauma brought Pattern to her. That is why Pattern is wanting her to tell her last secrets. She isn't who she thinks she is. 

I can't even imagine what it is that caused it. 

[Govir]

It’s a wild guess, but I feel like the one writing to Navani is the Sibling.

[+Harrycrapper]

That is kinda odd how we've had no Venli chapters or any flashbacks. I'm pretty sure there were flashback chapters in the part ones of the other books.

[Friendshipspren]

Just now, paperstones said:

I really think Formless is the "original" Shallan. Shallan was created to deal with whatever trauma brought Pattern to her. That is why Pattern is wanting her to tell her last secrets. She isn't who she thinks she is. 

I can't even imagine what it is that caused it. 

Holy...... Yeah.  I never even thought about  how a cryptic would bond with a healthy child , till the second ideal too .

Ooof it would something if Shallan is a construct. But I don't think so. 

[agrabes]

5 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

I think he's just depressed. It's hard ,esp when u live like kal and have no medication to ease it.

Team radiant. U mean they are a group within the coalition. 

Idk , if anyone would say that's wrong in the midst of a Desolation , not when u r fighting it. 

 

It could be a combination of depression and PTSD.  If this was real life, I'd say that's probably the case.  And not to steal the thunder of the Stormlight Addiction thread, but I think this chapter pretty much confirmed that Kaladin is addicted to Stormlight.  So, it could easily be that.

But it's more fun to think it could be a serious outside force.

I don't think it's a stretch at all that there could be a group within the Radiants who have differing opinions about the right way to fight the war, what should be acceptable tactics, etc.  It's happened in real life too - for example the German debates about whether or not to use Gas in WW1.

[theTruthshaper]

16 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

That is kinda odd how we've had no Venli chapters or any flashbacks. I'm pretty sure there were flashback chapters in the part ones of the other books.

We have only had 9 chapters. Also, both the stories have just finished, I think we will probably get a flashback chapter within the next three chapters.

15 minutes ago, agrabes said:

It could be a combination of depression and PTSD.  If this was real life, I'd say that's probably the case.  And not to steal the thunder of the Stormlight Addiction thread, but I think this chapter pretty much confirmed that Kaladin is addicted to Stormlight.  So, it could easily be that.

I mean, Stormlight make you want to move, it gives you purpose. With what I've read, that is what depressed people don't have. Stormlight is basically instant dopamine.

Edited September 1, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[+Oltux72]

8 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

What fabrials are you talking about?

 

It could have been Venli, but the person did not talk like that. Also, how would Venli sneak in the ruby?

Exactly. Who can do it? Who would not rather sabotage something? And who cares about Spren? A wild guess: Sja-Anat

8 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Why didn't Navani tell us which Radiant spren Soulcasters use was? Was it an Inkspren? Or a Cryptic? Or another spren altogether?

She does not know? Judging by the shape likely means that it is man-shaped. This is new. Radiant Spren is likely to mean a spaient Spren. Navani may very well not know about non-humanoid sapient species. I doubt Lift has told many people about Arclo. She just would doubt people would believe her.

[+Ptolema]

So on Shadesmar, Soulcasters basically look like Radiant spren hovering around with their eyes closed. That got a bit... uncomfortable. Especially in conjunction with the messages Navani got. Whoever's behind that spanread seems to think the spren they're referring to is capable of feeling pain, perhaps they're actually complaining about Soulcasters/the strange fabrial and somehow blaming Navani for it?

And funny how Navani in the end seems to assume whoever she just talked to was a "mysterious woman or ardent", despite how much the Alethi gender roles have been bent since WoR. Since their script is nearly illegible, I don't think it's necessarily a woman, or at least not Alethi. Possibly not even a human, given how they speak of the honorspren.

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

What fabrials are you talking about?

She is wondering how the tower of Urithiru works and hopes to use its method to make more once she understands the theory.  Someone is acting like she is Oppenheimer.  I don't think they are talking about anything she has done yet.  Rather things she is starting to figure out.

10 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

It could have been Venli, but the person did not talk like that. Also, how would Venli sneak in the ruby?

She might have been writing for Timbre.  I don't know if she can write alethi but maybe her spren can and is helping.  As to your second question Willshaper abilities seem the obvious answer.

13 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Why didn't Navani tell us which Radiant spren Soulcasters use was? Was it an Inkspren? Or a Cryptic? Or another spren altogether?

Good question.

11 minutes ago, Govir said:

It’s a wild guess, but I feel like the one writing to Navani is the Sibling.

That would be fun.  Only how would the Sibling arrange that?

10 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

That is kinda odd how we've had no Venli chapters or any flashbacks. I'm pretty sure there were flashback chapters in the part ones of the other books.

We are sort of in a climax. I think putting those here would mess with the pacing.

[Scriptorian]

Quote

A pewter cage will cause the spren of your fabrial to express its attribute in force—a flamespren, for example, will create heat. We call these augmenters.

No, silly Navani, we call that the Internal Physical Pushing metal.

Quote

One might assume that—in deciding to learn how to read—Dalinar would no longer worry about what was traditionally considered masculine or feminine. But the male ego could be as complicated as the most intricate fabrial.

And then Navani promptly assumes that the mysterious person writing to her must either be a woman or an ardent.

Quote

“Nalathis. Scadarial. Tal Dain...."

*does a spit take*

Current theory: Formless is the embodiment of Shallan's negative self-image. I.e. a cold-hearted, lying, psychotic killer.

Also, I wonder if maybe Shallan's final secret is that there is no final secret? That she's been suppressing things to herself for so long that her psyche hasn't adapted to not having anything major to repress any more, and so she's subconsciously creating this idea that there's this last thing that will finally break her and make her completely unlovable. Just spitballing here.

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Scriptorian said:

Current theory: Formless is the embodiment of Shallan's negative self-image. I.e. a cold-hearted, lying, psychotic killer.

The one personality we have not yet seen is the one in WoR.  Shallan's child alter.  What is after all more formless then a child?

Edited September 1, 2020 by Karger

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Harbour said:

Shallan's deeper secrets than even killing her father and mother. He life being lie. Formless.

Is Shallan secretly some ancient creature with erased memory? Is she Sibling? Is she Unmade herself? Is she Cultivation's vessel or something? I think we need to search something in that direction.

In another RoW Spoilers thread I theorized that perhaps Shallan's deeper secret is that she was not her mother's child - that her happy memories of being with her mother are fabrications - and that was why her mother found it so easy to try to kill her "suddenly". Was it sudden? What did she mean by "one of THEM?"

When she reflected to herself that "even Shallan is a lie" in this chapter, I started to really wonder, as you did here, how deep that goes... Yeesh.

[Harbour]

Scene when Shallan talked to Adolin, and then Veil emerged and started talking about Shallan in third person, was truly disturbing. I feel really bad for Adolin who tries to keep sanity talking to wife who partly isnt his wife. Im pretty sure his question about Veil being with someone else was dropped for a reason and the tension will keep rising. I hope it wont end up in the same spot Gavilar and Navani ended up in prologue.

[DeployParachute]

Quote

You never got half of Dalinar Kholin. When he put his mind to something, you got the whole man—and had to simply pray to the Almighty that you could handle him.

...

[+Bliev]

43 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Holy...... Yeah.  I never even thought about  how a cryptic would bond with a healthy child , till the second ideal too .

Ooof it would something if Shallan is a construct. But I don't think so. 

Yeah, I'd think that the Shallan we see is the "more perfect version" of herself (as per her Lightweaver abilities") and this "Formless" is her child alter that is stuck in the trauma place of her youth. What happened to her as a child? What has she internalized as her fault that is *worse* (to her mind) than killing her parents? This chapter does confirm to me, though, that she's held steady since OB, and her alters have held in a functional state thus far. Like Kal, she will likely revert a bit before progressing again, but I don't think she's currently *worse* than OB.