Ptolema

Something related to how the different Lights/Investitures or bonds interact, maybe? It seems Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture affected "all souls belonging to Roshar" (according to the Sibling), and yet creatures like the Honorspren don't seem to have noticed it directly, while the Sibling outright lost their ability to properly generate Towerlight. There has to be some factor that determined just how clear the effect was on each. It must have been something that affected everything on Roshar, sure, but of the spren, only the Sibling seemed to see a direct relation between the binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram and their power loss, so either the rest of the spren weren't aware of all the details or they just generally blamed the Recreance(?), taking into account things like the implication that deadeyes weren't really a thing prior to the Recreance either.

I'm sorry but this literally happened (yes I spent an unreasonable amount of time remaking the cat vs lady meme template)

I think several of the Unmade like Sja-anat, at least in terms of how they are described, might have been the parents or otherwise leading force of some lesser spren, originally. Like how the Stormfather is to the Honorspren that were his children. Way too many of the Unmade have that "mother" attribute attached to them for it to be a coincidence. Sja-anat is the prime example in how her enlightened spren act towards her, but Re-Shephir is also called the Midnight Mother or the Spawning Mother, and supposedly Chemoarish is the Dustmother. Ba-Ado-Mishram may have related to some larger-scope aspect of Connection in Roshar itself. The Sibling is (presumably) younger than the Unmade because Raboniel says they were made to fight against Odium, and yet the Sibling says the binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram affected not only them, but all spren. Whatever Ba-Ado-Mishram was or is, had to be important enough to affect everything on Roshar regardless of their origin or relation.

Going by this Kaladin quote, I'd been assuming the tower itself is literally just the Sibling's manifested body.

I feel like "uncorrupting" would require removing the Voidlight, maybe, like how Navani vented the Voidlight out of the Sibling. That said, the process was stopped before the Sibling actually got unmade, so we really don't know if it's a reversible process at all once it's complete. Sja-anat's interlude and the Siblings fears make it sound like Unmaking breaks the spren's mind/memories. If a full unmaking would make the spren work just on Voidlight, then Life/Stormlight would basically be the equivalent of a corruption of injected, but if a part of them remains as it originally was, then no idea. I really hope we get to see more on how the mixing of Lights affects spren in the future, really.

Yeah, was thinking about this earlier, I feel like between the mentions of "Unmaking" and the fact that Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture seems to have hurt all spren, it's almost like the Unmade that we know of are being set up to turn out to be important parts of Roshar, maybe former spren of another source that were essential prior to their unmaking/corruption.

I didn't want to look back at what I posted here as I wasn't quite ready to cringe at what I guessed, but now I'm surprised I actually wasn't entirely wrong? I guess a lot of them were predictable, though. I also had some theories about Glys and Sja-anat but like... Not much happened with Glys in this book, lol.

I doubt Navani will have to give up science. The way I see it, Navani and the Sibling are actually pretty compatible. The Sibling's song literally gets called "the song of science itself". What they disagree on are Navani's methods, and considering the Sibling says the Oathgate spren were willing, I find it likely the Sibling would be fine with fabrials being operated by willing spren. After they bond, the Sibling tells Navani that the tower's fabrials are complicated, followed by Navani immediately saying what they're for, and the Sibling just going "YES!" The Sibling doesn't really trust Navani yet, but if things go well, they could certainly do just fine. They just need to find methods they can agree on. Once that's done, they'll probably do even more for science than Navani could have done on her own, prior to becoming a Bondsmith.

I think you're probably right, though no idea whose they could have been originally. Considering it turns out it wasn't just the Singers who were affected by Ba-Ado-Mishram being trapped, I wonder whether any of the spren other than the Sibling are aware of something being wrong. The Sibling seems to clearly consider that day to have been the day the tower stopped working, and says it affected "all souls who belong to Roshar". Navani actually asks them why no spren had mentioned it and the Sibling doesn't know. If Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture was so bad, shouldn't the other spren have noticed that? Though current spren also weren't aware of the deadeyes' involvement in Recreance, so maybe they're just ignorant towards the fact that things were supposed to be different. I wonder if the Sibling turning away from the humans had anything to do with Melishi's binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram. Melishi was the Sibling's Bondsmith, and yet the Sibling refers to that binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram as a "terrible act". I know the Sibling also calls Navani a slaver for her work on fabrials and trapping spren in general, but the Sibling is stated to have been created to fight against Odium, so doesn't make much sense that they would oppose the binding of an Unmade unless for one reason or another they wholly believed that act was legitimately a bad one.

Since I keep seeing theories about just how Connected to Roshar and spren Ba-Ado-Mishram might have been, and Raboniel's injection of Voidlight was explicitly called an attempt an Unmaking the Sibling, I can't help but wonder if not just Ba-Ado-Mishram but several (if not all) of the Unmade could just have been powerful spren of another source (perhaps of Honor like the Stormfather, of Cultivation like the Nightwatcher, or a combination like the Sibling, or anything else, basically). Possible points for the theory Given the persistence of the term, it seems "unmaking" is a specific thing. Sja-anat warns the spren she sends away on her interlude that Odium will see them and try to unmake them. She says she was "unmade", like how later in the book "unmaking" is basically used as a verb. Also from Sja-anat's interlude: Although this conclusion requires certain assumptions, I'm interpreting Sja-anat's PoV as an implication that Odium "unmaking" spren basically tears them apart in one way or another without actually destroying them. Re-purposing them? And Sja-anat with her, ahem, "enlightening" of spren seems to think her own corruption of spren is alright, while also being acknowledging she could be unmade again, and even if she was kind of sacrificing that spren in the interlude, her warning does seem to point towards unmaking being a thing that could affect more than just spren of Odium, because Sja-anat's spren, even corrupted, must have been other types of spren beforehand. There's what Raboniel says when injecting the Voidlight. And how she describes it. Not to mention part of the Sibling's own words about it when they tell Navani "they are killing me" and Navani tries to tell them that spren can't die. There are other quotes on it, but basically, the possibility of the Sibling being Unmade wouldn't have just been akin to killing them, it would have been worse, but most noteworthy, the part about "made into someone else". What if the Unmade are literally just former strong spren (perhaps even on the level of the current Bondsmith spren) who were each unmade into "someone else"? One of the silly aspects that made me want to look into that is the naming theme of the Bondsmith spren. They don't exactly have names as human characters or even spren like Syl do, as much as their names appear to just represent who they are. The Stormfather. The Nightwatcher. The Sibling. Some of the Unmade, like Ba-Ado-Mishram, aren't described by a title like that, but others are. Ashertmarn is the Heart of the Revel. Chemoarish is the Dustmother. Dai-gonarthis is the Black Fisher. Re-Shepir is the Midnight Mother, or Spawning Mother, and Yelig-nar is Blightwind. And of course, there's Sja-anat, who's also the only Unmade we've seen the point of view of at all, and she clearly seems to see the whole Taker of Secrets thing as an integral part of herself. Some of those names could be interpreted as negative, sure, but probably not any more negative than the Nightwatcher's actions and appearance, and the Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren. Do the names prove anything? Admittedly, no. But they're interesting nevertheless, really. They imply the Unmade are forces of something. Now an actual serious argument: If the assumption that Yelig-nar grants all Ten Surges is correct, what I feel may be the most compelling argument in favor of the Unmade having been other spren is that the Fused only have nine surges, so in theory the same should apply to spren of Odium. But they say Yelig-nar can provide all 10 surges, no? Why would a spren exclusively of Odium be capable of that, if Adhesion is "not a true Surge", just related to Honor? Now, the Epigraph on Chapter 95 of Oathbringer admittedly just says "all Surges" in relation to Yelig-nar without directly stating a number. Reviewing Kaladin's fight with Amaram, I reckon we see Amaram use Cohesion, Abrasion, Gravitation, and possibly Division, at the very least. I didn't actually manage to find anything outright stating that Yelig-nar can grant Adhesion, so I suppose that point could fall apart if the "grants all 10 surges" detail is just an assumption, but I believe circumstantial evidence in general, especially the topic of Raboniel trying to unmake the Sibling, does seem to strongly points towards the possibility of at least some of the Unmade having been normal spren before. Possible points against the theory As much as I believe the Unmade could be former normal spren, I do have some doubts given how some pieces don't entirely fit. There's Sja-anat's own words in her interlude. She does outright say came from Odium, despite immediately using "Unmade" kind of as a verb again. There's also this old WoB - So, taking all into account... Thoughts?

Since she apparently granted Voidlight, she likely was an Unmade. That said, considering how Raboniel's attempt at corrupting the Sibling by injecting Voidlight was referred to as "unmaking", I feel like this book opened up the possibility of the Unmade in general having been former important spren of Honor/Cultivation/or-a-combination, that just got forcibly turned into Odium's "Unmade".

May have pulled an all-nighter to read, may have still ended up skimming because of poor focus. Every scene where Navani PoV basically mentioned sleep deprivation as a result of not wanting to researching... those were a mood. Anyway, I see we're spoiler tagging things in here, so... Speaking of Navani... On the topic of the Sibling And Maya... Oh, and the deadeyes in general... Oh, and Moash And Teft And Leshwi And Raboniel And Shallan's past.... And uh, Ishar I should probably go re-read all over again, not skimming this time, but I wanted to already start discussing this, oops.

I pre-ordered on Google Play, it shows up with the [Read] button, but actually clicking it just leads me to "No Sample Available". Checked on the Web version, still at Pre-Ordered, but viewing it without logging in gives me the Buy option (not preorder). Hey, Google Play, are you okay?

I agree that the "essentially" implies the Sibling isn't a deadeye, just that the Fused probably say "deadeye" there because it's the closest thing they can think of to explain it. That said, isn't deadeye a term we didn't see until Ico? Though I suppose the Fused could have heard it either prior to the gap between desolations or when they were in Shadesmar. Still found it pretty curious that they chose to use that term. I really hope now that whatever the "gemstones at the Sibling's heart" are/do gets explored at some point, since Raboniel seems to think them so important.

I honestly loved the movie. I was really glad to see it's apparently based on a book (and that there are more of those!) I didn't know a lawsuit had apparently happened, but I really hope that doesn't ruin the chances of more of these movies existing

This got me thinking: I realize it's probably a huge leap in logic but if Urithiru is like a giant fabrial and apparently fabrials can be split... Could something the Radiants did have broken Urithiru (and by extension, the Sibling)? Stormfather seemed adamant that it was the humans who hurt the Sibling, and other than Radiance, the only thing humans seem to be consistently dabbling in are fabrials. I feel like if how they "hurt" the Sibling were something as simple as broken Radiant oaths, the Stormfather wouldn't shut up about it, as opposed to being so purposefully ambiguous as to whatever happened to the Sibling. From the epigraph: - Might I ask exactly in which chapter does it say "the parent"? Because that's notable considering how the phrasing of the Sibling seems to intentionally go out of their way to indicate the Sibling as neither gender. There's the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher is described as a woman, Cultivation is "Mother". Though it would be weird to call them dead if it's the Sibling, considering how the deadeyes are considered irrevocably dead by spren, while the Sibling is "sleeping". Still, the gender-neutral "parent" is notable, though I'd assumed the Oathgate spren were commanded by Honor. - ...how ARE people treating Renarin? I am suddenly concerned. - And oooo Sja-anat is literate. That's... interesting.

I kind of wonder if Adolin explained to them what happened with Maya. I got the impression that Kaladin and Shallan didn't directly witness what Maya did for Adolin in Shadesmar, and obviously no one else would know of how Maya communicated with him later. But I don't see a reason why Adolin wouldn't at least tell those select few (Dalinar, Kaladin, etc.) about it, since he knows they can keep a secret, and it probably would've been weird if he'd just started calling her Maya out loud with no explanation. Yet Kaladin just speaks of Adolin's blade like any other dead Shardblade. Kaladin treating Adolin's attachment to Maya so harshly would be pretty out of character unless he doesn't know about what happened with Adolin and Maya.

I agree here! It seems to be a running theme so far, that the Radiants are managing to do things that weren't possible before. I don't think the bond between Adolin and Maya would be as simple as him just straight-up becoming an Edgedancer. Sure, if he continues with Maya, then he could go down that path, but what if he just slowly becomes something closer to a squire or something, not quite a Radiant because Maya is dead, but not just a Shardbearer because they do have some sort of bond? Adolin's path towards healing Maya would be so much more interesting than him just becoming a regular Radiant.

Considering the epigraphs seem to talk about problems between the Radiants back then, I wonder if those "divisions" lead to harm befalling the Sibling, or maybe even lead to their Bondsmith being killed in a way like how Syl fell into a slumber when her first Windrunner died. Could have been something else. Spren seem to almost universally consider deadeyes to be "dead", yet the Sibling is stated to be asleep. Plus the fact that whoever spoke on the epigraph says they agree that something was happening to the Sibling, but that the division among the Radiants was not the cause, implies at least some people must have believed that division to be to blame. The fact that the "Good night, sweet Sibling. Good night, Radiants." epigraphs is a ruby really doesn't help, considering how the ashspren seem to currently hate humanity.

Yeah, that's basically what I've been wondering, if there's anything that says they have to be of Roshar or if it would be fine to theorize otherwise.

Not sure if the question makes sense, but do we know if the Sibling has to be originally from Roshar? Beyond the fact that they're presumably a godspren/Splinter, I can't find if there are any assumptions about that.

So on Shadesmar, Soulcasters basically look like Radiant spren hovering around with their eyes closed. That got a bit... uncomfortable. Especially in conjunction with the messages Navani got. Whoever's behind that spanread seems to think the spren they're referring to is capable of feeling pain, perhaps they're actually complaining about Soulcasters/the strange fabrial and somehow blaming Navani for it? And funny how Navani in the end seems to assume whoever she just talked to was a "mysterious woman or ardent", despite how much the Alethi gender roles have been bent since WoR. Since their script is nearly illegible, I don't think it's necessarily a woman, or at least not Alethi. Possibly not even a human, given how they speak of the honorspren.

Reading this, I actually got curious as to what mentions of "warmth" were justified by in TWoK/WoR/OB (aside from the surprising amount of people standing next to fires for warmth) and I think I agree. Couldn't find any on TWoK. In WoR: Chapter 46, And we know Cultivation's Perpendicularity is in the Horneater peaks. Chapter 89, Dalinar dreams of his childhood home and steps out the balcony: After he wakes up, he actually wonders what that was. He questions the Stormfather, who tells him it wasn't a vision. The Stormfather calls it a simple dream, but maybe he just didn't know anything about Cultivation's actions. The fact that he doesn't have an answer when Dalinar starts getting his memories back in OB kind of backs that idea. Into OB: In Chapter 4, when Dalinar is talking to Kadash: Dalinar seems to interpret it as something beyond Honor, but this early into OB he still wasn't aware of Cultivation's work either so that's a bit in the air. He mentions the warmth again in Chapter 16, basically in the same way. In Chapter 119, while Dalinar is rejecting Odium, he feels the warmth again: Then on Chapter 122, it's mentioned one last time: Dalinar seems to consistently interpret it as something beyond Honor, not necessarily something else. Funnily enough, when Dalinar asked who Cultivation was back on the flashback of Chapter 114, she tells him she's "someone beyond your authority to question". I'll be honest, I was hoping to find something directly mentioning warmth in relation to Cultivation, but even without that, I still agree. Honor isn't around anymore, and Cultivation has clearly been doing things. The warmth is mentioned specifically as a warmth too many times for it not to be deeply important. It bothers me that I can't seem to find any direct link in the scene itself but it still makes sense, especially considering the first mention is literally on Dalinar's strange dream/flashback that the Stormfather claims was just a dream, rather late into WoR, and in OB Dalinar's memories slowly come back. I've seen the theory that Glys was sent to Sja-anat on purpose, presumably by Cultivation, and if the warmth is related to Cultivation, that'd make perfect sense. Renarin can't make illusions, unlike other Truthwatchers (Chapter 6 of the RoW preview, on Navani's narration). We know Cultivation is superior to Honor in terms of seeing the future. If Glys is in some way related to Cultivation, that'd explain the visions. TL;DR: Since Glys can't remember much of his corruption, possibly either because the corruption itself left him broken or there had been some damage that facilitated the corruption in the first place, then the visions could be of Cultivation, while the strangeness of Renarin's Illumination could be attributed to Glys' brokenness. And if we're following that (likely) logic that Glys is broken in some way, then maybe he and Renarin legitimately don't notice the effects of the light.