When is it OK to use Hemalurgy

[BinarySecond]

On 7/25/2020 at 8:56 PM, Oltux72 said:

1. Death penalty - just shooting somebody like Miles Hundredlives is a waste
2. Suicide - leaving your abilities to your heirs - in fact a little bit of yourself

Do we know if Spike can be created with suicide? Or if it requires someone on the other side with a hammer and some intent?

[Infinity Sliver]

1 hour ago, BinarySecond said:

Do we know if Spike can be created with suicide? Or if it requires someone on the other side with a hammer and some intent?

it probably could? The person committing suicid3 could be the person with the intent,plus the spike stays in the body so it doesnt degrade? Although I dont see a situation where this could be used....except for maybe people in a cult who have been brainwashed

[BinarySecond]

32 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

it probably could? The person committing suicid3 could be the person with the intent,plus the spike stays in the body so it doesnt degrade? Although I dont see a situation where this could be used....except for maybe people in a cult who have been brainwashed

A use could be an individual is dying and wishes to allow their ability to be retained for the future descendants, even if their direct descendants do not wish to use it. Sure maybe your kids won't help but their children might want to be a Pewterarm.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Since apparently you can use hemalurgy from conception on, once IVF becomes a thing you can just stab excess embryos in Petri dishes.

This is actually very interesting, since both the Scadrian pro-choice crowd and those who don’t think an embryo in a Petri dish counts as “alive” will consider this perfectly ethical. Those who are against experimentation on human embryos will be against it. It would make for a very interesting moral debate, paralleling the RL one regarding using extra embryos for science.

@Infinitysliver A lot of times people committing suicide feel their loved ones are better off without them. Being able to leave their families something might play into a suicide. Or they might think that they’re only valuable for their ability, so choose a method that allows that to be retained. Depression is not rational and neither are suicidal thoughts or ideations.

I can also see people who are dying feeling that this way they can stay around in some form. Or family members choosing to this when removing life support so they’ll still have a piece of the person. I can definitely see this happening in cases of infant loss, for example. Even having the spike play a role in therapy, such as melting it down into earrings.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613

[Tglassy]

On 11/9/2021 at 11:29 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Since apparently you can use hemalurgy from conception on, once IVF becomes a thing you can just stab excess embryos in Petri dishes.

This is actually very interesting, since both the Scadrian pro-choice crowd and those who don’t think an embryo in a Petri dish counts as “alive” will consider this perfectly ethical. Those who are against experimentation on human embryos will be against it. It would make for a very interesting moral debate, paralleling the RL one regarding using extra embryos for science.

@Infinitysliver A lot of times people committing suicide feel their loved ones are better off without them. Being able to leave their families something might play into a suicide. Or they might think that they’re only valuable for their ability, so choose a method that allows that to be retained. Depression is not rational and neither are suicidal thoughts or ideations.

I can also see people who are dying feeling that this way they can stay around in some form. Or family members choosing to this when removing life support so they’ll still have a piece of the person. I can definitely see this happening in cases of infant loss, for example. Even having the spike play a role in therapy, such as melting it down into earrings.

This is a very morbid post among a morbid thread.  "Well, little Timmy is dying. I know he's only three days old, but there's nothing we can do.  Readings state he might be a Pewterarm, though.  Would you like to stab him or should I do it?"

The concept of an embryo not actually being alive is negated if you are able to take something from it's spirit web.  Because to take something from its Spirit Web, it must therefore have a soul/spirit to take from.  Hence, the argument for abortion, that the fetus is just a clump of cells and isn't really alive, doesn't hold much weight on Scadrial.  

 

 

To answer the original post's question, I don't know.  Hemalurgy does seem to be one of the most powerful forms of magic in the cosmere, because if I'm not mistaken, anyone in the Cosmere can do it.  All you need is the right metal and the right intent, and the right bind point.  But the costs are huge.  You aren't just killing someone.  You're ripping off a piece of their Soul.  When they go Beyond, to whatever is waiting for them, they won't be whole.  They'll be torn, missing a part of themselves.  When you're dealing with a world where the Spirit is a quantifiable, verifiable thing, it changes the perspective a little.  I'm not sure if, in that light, any kind of Hemalurgy can ever actually be moral, because we don't know the full extent of the costs.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 11/10/2021 at 5:37 PM, Tglassy said:

This is a very morbid post among a morbid thread.  "Well, little Timmy is dying. I know he's only three days old, but there's nothing we can do.  Readings state he might be a Pewterarm, though.  Would you like to stab him or should I do it?"

The concept of an embryo not actually being alive is negated if you are able to take something from it's spirit web.  Because to take something from its Spirit Web, it must therefore have a soul/spirit to take from.  Hence, the argument for abortion, that the fetus is just a clump of cells and isn't really alive, doesn't hold much weight on Scadrial.  

 

 

To answer the original post's question, I don't know.  Hemalurgy does seem to be one of the most powerful forms of magic in the cosmere, because if I'm not mistaken, anyone in the Cosmere can do it.  All you need is the right metal and the right intent, and the right bind point.  But the costs are huge.  You aren't just killing someone.  You're ripping off a piece of their Soul.  When they go Beyond, to whatever is waiting for them, they won't be whole.  They'll be torn, missing a part of themselves.  When you're dealing with a world where the Spirit is a quantifiable, verifiable thing, it changes the perspective a little.  I'm not sure if, in that light, any kind of Hemalurgy can ever actually be moral, because we don't know the full extent of the costs.

A living cell is not a living person. You could probably stab something out of an animal. If an embryo can be stabbed, you should be able to use any living cell. That’s all an embryo is: a single living cell. 

No one is denying the cell is alive. The argument would be whether or not it’s a person.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

This is a very morbid post among a morbid thread.  "Well, little Timmy is dying. I know he's only three days old, but there's nothing we can do.  Readings state he might be a Pewterarm, though.  Would you like to stab him or should I do it?"

The concept of an embryo not actually being alive is negated if you are able to take something from it's spirit web.  Because to take something from its Spirit Web, it must therefore have a soul/spirit to take from.  Hence, the argument for abortion, that the fetus is just a clump of cells and isn't really alive, doesn't hold much weight on Scadrial.  

 

 

To answer the original post's question, I don't know.  Hemalurgy does seem to be one of the most powerful forms of magic in the cosmere, because if I'm not mistaken, anyone in the Cosmere can do it.  All you need is the right metal and the right intent, and the right bind point.  But the costs are huge.  You aren't just killing someone.  You're ripping off a piece of their Soul.  When they go Beyond, to whatever is waiting for them, they won't be whole.  They'll be torn, missing a part of themselves.  When you're dealing with a world where the Spirit is a quantifiable, verifiable thing, it changes the perspective a little.  I'm not sure if, in that light, any kind of Hemalurgy can ever actually be moral, because we don't know the full extent of the costs.

I'll agree with you on the first part, however I would say that I think any damage done to the spiritweb would not have any effect once they pass into the Beyond, but that is also a debate on whether the SR soul is the same as the Beyond soul, which we will never know, so that is a point to consider.

[NameIess]

4 hours ago, Tglassy said:

This is a very morbid post among a morbid thread.  "Well, little Timmy is dying. I know he's only three days old, but there's nothing we can do.  Readings state he might be a Pewterarm, though.  Would you like to stab him or should I do it?"

The concept of an embryo not actually being alive is negated if you are able to take something from it's spirit web.  Because to take something from its Spirit Web, it must therefore have a soul/spirit to take from.  Hence, the argument for abortion, that the fetus is just a clump of cells and isn't really alive, doesn't hold much weight on Scadrial.  

 

 

To answer the original post's question, I don't know.  Hemalurgy does seem to be one of the most powerful forms of magic in the cosmere, because if I'm not mistaken, anyone in the Cosmere can do it.  All you need is the right metal and the right intent, and the right bind point.  But the costs are huge.  You aren't just killing someone.  You're ripping off a piece of their Soul.  When they go Beyond, to whatever is waiting for them, they won't be whole.  They'll be torn, missing a part of themselves.  When you're dealing with a world where the Spirit is a quantifiable, verifiable thing, it changes the perspective a little.  I'm not sure if, in that light, any kind of Hemalurgy can ever actually be moral, because we don't know the full extent of the costs.

Here's a WoB about the afterlife effects of hemalurgy:

Quote

Lady Radagu

Does being the donor of a Hemalurgic spike have any implications for your afterlife? Or how about the recipient?

Brandon Sanderson

That is actually going to depend on-- Okay. Yes it has implications for the afterlife. Yes.

Lady Radagu

Okay so are there a bunch of Scadrian souls wandering the afterlife with holes in their personalities or memory or identity? Or some with extra parts tacked on?

Brandon Sanderson

So it has implications, but they are not exactly ones that you are assuming. So in the cosmere there is "dead" and "mostly dead". Okay? And this has been shown several times so once someone dies there is a period before they transition. Sazed talks about this in Mistborn 3. And so most of the implications are for before transition. Does that make sense? Post-transition you are going to have to ask the philosophers and the theologians who are the ones that talk about that. So there is an afterlife and an after-afterlife. Not as many implications for after-afterlife. Middle? Yes. Okay?

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

 

[Letryx13]

I'm with Sazed on Hemalurgy. I don't think ripping apart people's souls, even with good intentions, is a good idea. I know the Kandra wouldn't exist without it, but even they aren't comfortable knowing two people died to make each of them. 

Yes, granting power that way could do good, but it's just as easy to go the other way.  The only thing stopping someone from using it to become another Lord Ruler is Sazed, and he might not choose to act if the person hasn't formed some kind of contract with him. He mentioned that when discussing Bleeder with Waxillium. 

I agree with the people who compare this to organ transplants.  And it's also worrying to think what would happen if knowledge of Hemalurgy became common knowledge.  Not just the Set and Vanishers kidnapping people, but common criminals doing so for power and rich people trying to buy people's lives or powers.  Hopefully @Ralphaborn is right, and the medallion technology makes it unnecessary.

[Inquisitor #5]

On 2021-11-09 at 5:29 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

This is actually very interesting, since both the Scadrian pro-choice crowd and those who don’t think an embryo in a Petri dish counts as “alive” will consider this perfectly ethical.

Hmm, I think this is actually not exactly the case.

I think you can be morally opposed to Hemalurgy (say, for reasons of Spiritual maiming), while still being pro-choice.

 

The way I ended up thinking about this, "standard" Hemalurgy ends up in the same space, ethically, as organ harvesting and trading in stolen organs.

Plus the whole killing people thing.

Hemalurgy practiced with the consent of the "donor" is still... iffy... Depends on your views on euthenasia, I suppose.

Assuming that people figure out how to Hemalurg without killing people, you could have "ethical Hemalurgy" by using willing "donors" and unsealed goldminds.

Would also work for organ donation in general.

You'd still get the mental trauma of this, of course, unless people can tap metalminds while sedated.

As for the idea of using it for executions, it might be considered needlessly cruel as a method, and you have to take into account the morality of executing people.

I think Gandalf says it very well in LotR:

Quote

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.

I don't think the death penalty is moral, personally.

And it's alread been pointed out that this could lead to a perverse incentive to convict metalborn for their abilities.

For the suicide question, that simply falls along the lines of if you think suicide is immoral, I think. If someone commits suicide, they should not be judged for that, so long as their chosen method doesn't harm or kill other people. And the entire moral culpability lies with the dead person in the case of auto-Hemalurgy, but it might be distasteful to people to actually use the spike left behind.

I also think that "assembly-line Hemalurgy" using petri dish embryos is... honestly horrifying, just for the callousness of it. And that's from someone who both likes Hemalurgy (it has so much potential!) and thinks that abortion is justified.

I suppose it's a line of what you consider justified/ethical to do with human cells and stuff. (Like we've agreed to not clone humans, IRL.)

It'd still be preferable to repeatedly spiking people with gold medallions, as the "donor" is insensate and unable to experience trauma.

A spike factory using people who can legally consent to the process would inflict so much trauma, even before and Spiritual "scar tissue" builds up, and whatever that does.

WoB spoilered for slight Words of Radoance spoilers:

Spoiler

Quote

Kurkistan

So you've said that healing is like the Spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point?

Brandon Sanderson

You need to make a patch on the soul with Investiture.

Kurkistan

So how's the Investiture know where to go, what to look like?

Brandon Sanderson

Well your soul is an ideal. So if you can get it up there, there are ways to do-- to recreate that with um... See I'm getting into stuff for later books.

Argent

No, that's okay.

Kurkistan

So when Hemalurgy rips something off the soul, is that the ideal soul or some sub-soul?

Brandon Sanderson

That is off of your soul, and it can be healed; but what it's going to be doing is creating a patch of new soul. So it will not be your original soul. Does that make sense?

Kurkistan

Okay, that- well, not completely, but I think that's your intention.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bystander

If you do that, is that like Frankenstein's monster, or is it like a graft that's absorb--

Brandon Sanderson

Less horrifying- Less horrifying than Frankenstein's monster, but it is a graft that is like-- It is not your original soul.

Bystander

Yeah, but in modern medicine stuff like that is absorbed-

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in this you will always have a scar on your soul that something else has patched over.

Kurkistan

So Kaladin shouldn't just keep getting his arm chopped?

Brandon Sanderson

*ignoring/not-hearing Kurkistan just now* But that is what happens with most forms of Investiture in the first place.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

Thia tells us that there's some permanent "scarring" even when it gets patched over.

WoB spoilered for length:

Spoiler

Quote

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

This tells us that Miles, who is used as the example, would need a lot of healing stored to be able to heal it properly.

So even if that's ethical, it's not like you could just churn out spikes at a breakneck pace, unless you had a huge team of gold compounders constantly making unkeyed goldminds for your factory, though I suppose the viability of the setup is a separate discussion from it being ethical.

I suppose it might be considered ethical as long as you stop before the effects of repeated "soul scarring" start being noticable, but that feels like a moral grey area still.

On 2021-11-11 at 5:52 PM, Letryx13 said:

The only thing stopping someone from using it to become another Lord Ruler is Sazed, and he might not choose to act if the person hasn't formed some kind of contract with him.

Given that the Set have found that three spikes is below the threshold for letting Harmony control them, I think it's safe to say that he'd step in if someone tried shenanigans like that.

It's quite possible that that many spikes would also warp you beyond what a single linchpin can stabilise, though I conceed that that is entirely speculation. We also have no reason to believe that Marsh has more than one linchpin spike stabilising his more than twenty spikes, so I might be entirely off base.

 

 

¤_¤

[Letryx13]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Given that the Set have found that three spikes is below the threshold for letting Harmony control them, I think it's safe to say that he'd step in if someone tried shenanigans like that.

Not necessarily.  He wants the people of Scadrial to be strong enough to handle what comes in the future, and part of that is struggling to achieve advancement. It could be argued Harmony wants His people to handle the Set, and grow because of it. He might even do the same if a new Lord Ruler emerged. I mean, one was already toppled, admittedly with a small bit of help from Preservation, but still.

[Cocoa]

I don't particularly think there's a point where it's okay to make spikes from humans (or other sapient beings). Using spikes already created from a person is a more morally grey thing, and in part depends on whether or not you're creating a demand for more spikes.

Now, one thing I think would be okay (probably, depending on what exactly you do to yourself when you staple something onto your spiritweb) is creating and using spikes from animals. I realize we don't have solid canon on whether or not you can create spikes from animals, but WoB is that you can use them on animals and I'm pretty sure there was a sidequest thing in one of the (non-canon, but helpful for giving ideas about what might fill in blank spots in canon) Mistborn Adventure Game supplements about a lady in the final empire who accidentally got spiked in the same kind of way Spook was and then experimented further with hemalurgy by having someone drive spikes through animals. Maybe use anesthesia in the process, so the animal doesn't have to be conscious while being spiked.

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, Cocoa said:

I don't particularly think there's a point where it's okay to make spikes from humans (or other sapient beings). Using spikes already created from a person is a more morally grey thing, and in part depends on whether or not you're creating a demand for more spikes.

Now, one thing I think would be okay (probably, depending on what exactly you do to yourself when you staple something onto your spiritweb) is creating and using spikes from animals. I realize we don't have solid canon on whether or not you can create spikes from animals, but WoB is that you can use them on animals and I'm pretty sure there was a sidequest thing in one of the (non-canon, but helpful for giving ideas about what might fill in blank spots in canon) Mistborn Adventure Game supplements about a lady in the final empire who accidentally got spiked in the same kind of way Spook was and then experimented further with hemalurgy by having someone drive spikes through animals. Maybe use anesthesia in the process, so the animal doesn't have to be conscious while being spiked.

Hemalurgy would work on animals,  so you could spike them.

[Cocoa]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Hemalurgy would work on animals,  so you could spike them.

Ah, wonderful. I hadn't been entirely sure on account of the wording of the WoB, so thank you for clearing that up.

[StanLemon]

Ignoring the whole fact that it rips holes in peoples' souls part of Hemalurgy, I think the only possible acceptable way that Hemalurgy could be used to make a Spike from people is if they were dying and chose to let their power/trait be passed on. Specifically with NO coercion or pressure, 100% their decision.

[Halyo_Alex]

23 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Hemalurgy would work on animals,  so you could spike them.

But now one must ponder the potential side-effects of having a chunk of animal spiritweb stapled to the spiritweb of a human.

Probably wise not to make Copper/Zinc spikes out of this method, but Iron/Tin would likely be just fine, perhaps even better due to the superior strength or senses of a particular species of animal by comparison to a human. Like spiking the electric field sense out of a platypus.

[NameIess]

I would argue that it would be moral to use hemalurgy to execute people. It would also be moral to use hemalurgy in battle. It would be very effective against anyone who is invested, and could be extremely effective against compounders such as Miles.

[Sp00ks]

Always