Syl Interlude Discussion

[Elegy]

It's the story of a piece of God that was trying to understand the pain of a human and went to a god to ask for help, but he couldn't give it to her. So she went to a human that experienced pain himself, and he made her look into herself to find a way to understand. It's a fairytale with Stormlight characters.

I've been in a somewhat emotionally fragile state since I read it.

[KandraAllomancer]

4 hours ago, R J said:

The Bondsmith that Sylphrena mentions bringing people to Roshar from Ashyn: perhaps the wielder of the Dawnshard that could "bind all creatures- mortal or Voidish"

It was mentioned by The Stormfather that the Oathpact was Ishar's work, for which he was called the Binder of Gods. Though it's surprising that he's also responsible for Heralds' immortality.

So the Surges were "bound" by a Bondsmith. The Honorblades weren't the first to harness the power... but then again, it was mentioned multiple times that Ashyn was destroyed by the Surges (Dawnshards and/or Voidbinding) but still quite an interesting statement

We know that there were fabrials (the Oathgates) on Ashyn. The Surge fabrials on Roshar were created in Aimia, which also happened to have had a Dawnshard and that doesn't sound like a coincidence. I agree that the original meaning of the word Bondsmith was likely to be a person wielding a Dawnshard - and they probably created Surge fabrials ("binding" Surges long before the Nahel bond was discovered), including the ones used to escape Ashyn

[Steel Inquisitive]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

This is the second interlude that goes out of its way to mention Rock's daughter, Cord. I'm going to go out on a limb and say she's important to the story, maybe even a radiant in the back 5.

It sounded like Rock have her the shards. Does that mean she's the queen of the horneaters?

I'm not sure how I'd feel about Rock dodging his responsibilities like that:-)

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

It sounded like Rock have her the shards. Does that mean she's the queen of the horneaters?

She has the plate not the blade.  She might be his champion.  We don't know the rules the horneaters have.

[Master Silver]

I hope when Kaladin starts winning at life, so does Bridge 4. I'd love to see a bunch of Bridge 4 in an epic fight swear the third idea all at the same time, so we see like 4-6 of them all get their blades ending with Kaladin gaining his plate. 

[Rainier]

I want to compare what Syl is asking from Dalinar to what we're being set up for in the pre-release description.

Quote

After forming a coalition of human resistance against the enemy invasion, Dalinar Kholin and his Knights Radiant have spent a year fighting a protracted, brutal war. Neither side has gained an advantage. Now, as new technological discoveries begin to change the face of the war, the enemy prepares a bold and dangerous operation. 

The arms race that follows will challenge the very core of the Radiant ideals, and potentially reveal the secrets of the ancient tower that was once the heart of their strength.

Dalinar has some kind of ability to join spren and people, and we're getting a book about a war ground to stalemate, which is to be broken by the side with the best tech.

Dalinar is going to be asked, or tempted, to make some really brutal fabrials, in full knowledge of what it does to the spren trapped inside. Syl's idea of contentment will prevail, one hopes, but that's the rub that will challenge the core of Radiant ideals. They will watch as spren are made into weapons for the war.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Rainier

[joesleepsalot]

Anyone able to forward the email/newsletter? I’ve signed up like 6x now and still don’t have it in my email inbox 

[Hoid's secret?]

Exciting stuff

So from the conversation between Syl and the stormfather, we see that she wants or at least hopes Kal to be Honor's champion or play a major role in the future. But the stormfather isn't convinced. Does he already have someone else in mind?

[---]

10 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Is Kaladin only a surgeon now? Has he rejected everything else or is he just acting as a surgeon between missions while he's in the tower? 

I'm really hoping we don't get an ark where Bridge 4 refuses to fight at all because the humans "stole the land"

I don't think that's the case, mostly based on the Lirin chapter. I know we don't get much Kaladin from that, but he doesn't seem to be against fighting them even though that's not the reason he went.

I also do expect Lirin to die and that is what pushes Kaladin to become a surgeon.

10 hours ago, Cameron said:

Could it be that Syl isn't just a splinter of Honor? Or that's she's a greater splinter in some way?

I've been wondering that, and if that has anything to do with why the Stormfather tried to keep her away from bonds.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

It seems Kaladin is at the "Road Way Back" or Regression stage of his Hero's journey.  This is the point where the hero has made a lot of progress.  They have entered the fantastical world, met their allies mentor, and enemies, overcome the threshold guardians and are finally something different then what they started out as.  It is generally at this moment that something blows up.  The Hero is not used to being a hero.  They are not comfortable with the role and don't fully understand it.  Because of this they generally try and go back to the person they were before.  As Moash says.  "I have to be who I was"(paraphrased).  The problem with this as our Hero will discover is that they are not the same person they were.  They have changed.  They don't quite fit into their old role.  They might try and make it work as the person that they used to be but they can't unlearn what they have learned.  Their old role does not fit anymore.  The person they used to be is gone.  It is at this point where one of two things happens.  The Hero reconciles who they were with who they are now.  They learn from it and take the next step.  They accept that they cannot return to being who they used to be and make peace with that.  In doing so they start on the final ordeal.  The purification.  They take what they learned in the supernatural and apply it in some way to the physical.  This is called the resurrection.  It is generally the most dangerous part of our heroes journey.

  Reveal hidden contents

The Resurrection The Hero faces the Resurrection, his most dangerous meeting with death. This final life-and-death Ordeal shows that the Hero has maintained and can apply all that he has brought back to the Ordinary World. This Ordeal and Resurrection can represent a “cleansing” or purification that must occur now that the Hero has emerged from the land of the dead. The Hero is reborn or transformed with the attributes of his Ordinary self in addition to the lessons and insights from the characters that he has met along the road. The Resurrection may be a physical Ordeal, or final showdown between Hero and Shadow; however, the Ticking Clock of the Road Back has been set. This battle is for much more than the Hero’s life. Otherlives, or an entire world may be at stake and the Hero must now prove that he has achieved Heroic Status and willingly accept his sacrifice for the benefit of the Ordinary World. Other Allies may come to the last-minute rescue to lend assistance, but in the end the Hero must rise to the sacrifice at hand. He must deliver the blow that destroys the Death Star (Star Wars), or offer his handand accept the “magic” Elixir of love (Sleepless in Seattle).

 

I'm probably taking this "Ressurection" thing to literally, but it was said that every character only gets 1, and that the chasm thing in TWoK was Kaladin's. Of course i think he also said not to quote that lol.

8 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

What on earth would Pattern's viewpoint be like? How odd do you think he sees the world?

Waiting for that Pattern Interlude that is just straight binary...

Edited July 8, 2020 by Illwei

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Illwei said:

I'm probably taking this "Ressurection" thing to literally, but it was said that every character only gets 1, and that the chasm thing in TWoK was Kaladin

I think that was his acceptance of the call to adventure.  It may have been an unconventional one but he still accepted.

[thejopen27]

44 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I don't think that's the case, mostly based on the Lirin chapter. I know we don't get much Kaladin from that, but he doesn't seem to be against fighting them even though that's not the reason he went.

I also do expect Lirin to die and that is what pushes Kaladin to become a surgeon.

After thinking about it that’s my thought as well and I suspect thinking about this and talking to Hesina about his fathers thoughts will lead to him finally being able to accept he can’t save everyone and swear his fourth oath. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by thejopen27

[Harbour]

Its not that im not worried about Kaladin, but i like him being the surgeon. It reminds me of old mythos that inspired Tolkien. 

"The hands of a king are the hands of a healer"(c)

 

Just like Aragorn, Kaladin has healing hands, and like Aragorn, he will certainly return better and as the king in the end of Book 4 or Book 5. Thats classic journey of this type of protagonist.

 

It struck me now that Dalinar is pretty fitting for the role of Gandalf to Kaladin's Aragorn.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Harbour

[Dawnshot]

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

I want to compare what Syl is asking from Dalinar to what we're being set up for in the pre-release description.

Dalinar has some kind of ability to join spren and people, and we're getting a book about a war ground to stalemate, which is to be broken by the side with the best tech.

Dalinar is going to be asked, or tempted, to make some really brutal fabrials, in full knowledge of what it does to the spren trapped inside. Syl's idea of contentment will prevail, one hopes, but that's the rub that will challenge the core of Radiant ideals. They will watch as spren are made into weapons for the war.

Would make a lot of sense with Navani potentially being the other main character Brandon was talking about

[Rainier]

Just now, Dawnshot said:

Would make a lot of sense with Navani potentially being the other main character Brandon was talking about

Yes, exactly. I wouldn't be surprised to see Navani get more POV time than Dalinar, or perhaps Kaladin.

We're going to see weapons of war, powered by stormlight. I'm getting stoked.

[Friendshipspren]

12 hours ago, R J said:

Awww! See? No romantic subplot necessary, Syl's got his back! 

U know that would kind of noice. Like maybe they could break barriers and marry.

I doubt they could reproduce even with Shardic intervention

But they could adopt a Spren or a human child or both

Edited July 8, 2020 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Honorless]

1 minute ago, PrinceGenocide said:

U know that would kind of noice. Like maybe they could break barriers and marry. They could adopt a Spren or a human child. 

No idea how or even if they can do it tho. 

But that's not everything is it ?

I don't really like the Kaladin x Syl ship. It makes me uncomfortable.

[Friendshipspren]

29 minutes ago, R J said:

I don't really like the Kaladin x Syl ship. It makes me uncomfortable.

It is a bit wierd esp with how syl oscillates from child to jasnah level seriousness. 

But still it would be novel. 

Or kal could get jasnah. That would break barriers too. (✿^‿^)

@Illwei that made me laugh so hard. I wonder tho , do cryptics have a human language analog or is ut straight up binary or math with them 

I think the first bondsmith was a dawnsinger . Twas he who on orders of the shards brought the humans from ashyn. 

Also I'm pretty sure the sapient Spren copied the singers not humans. Syl mentions Spren having 4 genders to kal I think. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Douglas7886]

 It seems Syl is telling us also when Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar with her comment about ten thousand years new. I could be mistaken but I don't believe we knew this already.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Douglas7886

[Isilel]

17 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

The "Bondsmith" Syl is referring to has to be Ishar, I think. He's got some titles that match up pretty well - Binder of Gods, I believe, and Architect (or was it Founder?) of the Oathpact. (Not sure why "connected" to Braize isn't capitalized. But this seems like the same issue of Connection that's being discussed with Gavilar in the prologue.)

Indeed. I agree with the idea that he was likely using a Dawnshard before he became a Herald and that it was somehow used - and somehow used up, given that Honor in Dalinar's final vision believed that all the Dawnshards were gone, to establish the Oathpact. This confirms what I have been suspecting for some time - that Ishar, rather than Jezrien, was the most important Herald and their de-facto leader. He certainly seems to have made all the crucial decisions so far. Vorinism ia just too focussed on Jezrien's mortal background as king.

However, I don't think that Ishar could have been the one to create/discover the Nahel bond, since both young Nohadon in one of Dalinar's regular visions and the in-Universe Word of Radiance book state that the surgebinders first appeared _between_ the Returns. Oh, and Taln's monologues support this too - didn't he claim that appearance of surgebinders was "a surprise"? Personally, I suspect Cultivation's hand in this and hope that we'll finally hear about a female Bondsmith being responsible. So far we had Ishar, Melishi, Dalinar, possibly Nohadon - high time for us to hear about a Bondsmith of consequence who was a woman.

It also looks like Lirin's PoV chapter was a prelude to a major disaster that caused Kaladin's current predicament. From the back-cover description of RoW we know that a war was going on for a year and I expect that Kaladin had been in the thick of it, until things happened. Lirin seems to be a goner, but I hope that Hesina is still alive. I'd like to learn more about her as a person rather than an adjunct to her husband.

Very interesting information about Syl being different from other honorspren - it has been clear since we met Captain Notum that Syl's earlier claim that all spren of the same type have the same personality was wrong, but it seems that there is even more to it.

Cord - we already knew that the Horneater women could fight when Rock casually commented in his PoV in OB on his wife's superb archery in defense of the caravan. It is also clear that Rock himself was twisting the truth about his people's customs re: professions of various sons, if not directly lying. If they do exist in this form, they clearly don't apply to the nuatomas, which, as has been heavily hinted, he now is. Didn't he tell Bridge Four how _nuatomas_ were the ones who challenged Alethi  and  Veden shardbearers to the duels for their shards? Clearly, they aren't forbidden to fight, despite being eldest sons. Rock just feels immensely guilty about the deaths of his brothers, for some reason, and refuses to take up responsibility which is now his, by pretending that he isn't allowed to use weapons. Still, it is very interesting that Cord is the one with the Plate. We also know that Rock had been cooking even when he was the "warrior son", so I guess that she is the same?

A very intriguing confirmation about the nature of Plate and quite a surprise that it feels so benign to Syl. This hints that a good compromise could be achieved with modern fabrials as well.

"Different" light of Urithiru - given how the voidlight was previously described, I don't think that it could be it. But some blend of Honor's and Cultivation's light is likely. IIRC there was a quote in some of the in-world writings about Urithiru being "closest to Honor", and we also know that the stormlight is retained in spheres for much longer there. Wouldn't jive with Sibling being an Odium spren at all, IMHO.

Oh, and the intelligent spren being so "new" confirms my theory that they evolved due to human influence. This is the meaning of "Though broth are we, their meat is men. ” from the Listener Songs epigraphs in WoR.

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Isilel

[cfphelps]

Lots of great info in that interlude!

Most of my thoughts have been covered by others, but I do want to say that it's possible Dalinar gave Kaladin additional duties leading/training the surgeons, that adds to but doesn't replace being a soldier. Syls talk about her past bond doing civic works shows there are ways wind runners can protect without fighting. Dalinar and Syl's conversation makes it sound like Dalinar noticed Kal having a hard time getting pulled in so many directions and gave him changes to try to break the cycle. Based on him mentioning what he's been told, it seems like he is aware of Kal's depression and has had someone research it for him, or had a pretty frank conversation with Kaladin himself. 

Cord is definitely being setup to be more important in the story. Did Rock give her just the plate to keep her safe, or does she have a larger roll to play? Did he keep the blade? Would carrying a dead blade that has so much bad history with Kaladin, not to mention discouraging any spren bonding be a factor to Rock's decision? 

Syl mentioning The Lopen spren suggests that they've been continuing to work together over the time gap, so hopefully regardless of Kaladin's new duties, he still works with Bridge 4 closely. 

[Aglaia]

17 minutes ago, cfphelps said:

Most of my thoughts have been covered by others, but I do want to say that it's possible Dalinar gave Kaladin additional duties leading/training the surgeons, that adds to but doesn't replace being a soldier.

On the whole, I agree with your other thoughts, but I don't think, that he is still a soldier. 

Syl thinks, "Perhaps he would be satisfied as a surgeon, and it would be good for him to not have to kill anymore." 

 

[thejopen27]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Indeed. I agree with the idea that he was likely using a Dawnshard before he became a Herald and that it was somehow used - and somehow used up, given that Honor in Dalinar's final vision believed that all the Dawnshards were gone, to establish the Oathpact. This confirms what I have been suspecting for some time - that Ishar, rather than Jezrien, was the most important Herald and their de-facto leader. He certainly seems to have made all the crucial decisions so far. Vorinism is just too focussed on Jezrien's mortal background as king.

Kalak refers to Jezrien as "My Lord," Jezrien was the one elected to both wait for Kalak to tell him of their plans to abandon the oathpact, and it was Jezrien who went to the humans to tell them they won the war in the end. Jezrien was known to the fused as "the greatest human to ever live" and was respected and feared by them. Just because Ishar likely had magical power before and more magical power after doesn't make him the leader. Power doesn't make you worthy of leadership nor does it make you any better at it. If I had to guess I would assume Jezrien was king and Ishar was something like his court wizard and advisor, something like a Merlin. Was Merlin more powerful than Arthur? Yes, but Merlin was not king and Arthur was the leader. Maybe some did consider Ishar the leader, but Jezrien is the one shown exhibiting leadership. Post Jezrien's madness, Nale and maybe others go to Ishar for advice, but that doesn't mean it was always that way.

Edited July 8, 2020 by thejopen27

[Toaster Retribution]

11 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

Anyone able to forward the email/newsletter? I’ve signed up like 6x now and still don’t have it in my email inbox 

Sometimes it lands in the spam area of the email. If you don’t find it there, DM me your email and I’ll forward it.

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Hoid's secret? said:

So from the conversation between Syl and the stormfather, we see that she wants or at least hopes Kal to be Honor's champion or play a major role in the future. But the stormfather isn't convinced. Does he already have someone else in mind?

A Herald, Szeth, Jasnah, Renarin, The Mink, ...
The Stormfather knows that the future is unpredictable.

 

[GoWibble]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Sometimes it lands in the spam area of the email. If you don’t find it there, DM me your email and I’ll forward it.

@joesleepsalot It didn't go through for me, even in spam, until the newest newsletter. Did you sign up for the newsletter after the email went out?