Ships!!!

[Use the Falchion]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

From shipping? How much could they possibly have done? There where like 2 females and no romance arcs.

There was one romance arc, at the end. But it was poorly done. 

Shipping isn't limited to heterosexual relationships, and Shiro had been confirmed to be gay. Even if he hadn't, when has sexuality really stopped fans from shipping? Case and point, how many people in the Stormlight fandom ship Adolin & Kaladin? Or an OT3 between Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin?

Shipping is based on a lot of things, romance arcs are usually not one of them. Heck, a lot of times romance arcs can actually impede shipping, since the direction the romance moves may not be the direction the fans want it to move (again using Stormlight, there were a few fans upset that Shalladin didn't happen and Shadolin did. Not enough to cause a giant stir, but enough to be noticeable). 

As to how many ships the Voltron fandom could have possibly come up with...well, everyone was shipped with pretty much everyone, as far as I know. The main ones I remember were: Keith x Shiro, Keith & Lance, Keith & Allura, and Keith & Acxa. But the list goes on...

The show had far more issues than just shipping, but to deny the pure frenzy shipping whipped the fandom into would be like trying to ignore an elephant in a room. 

Mind you, my involvement in all of this was very limited. I tried the show when it came out, got three episodes in, and dropped it until right before the final season aired. I binged the first three-four seasons, and then skimmed through the last two because of how boring they were. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Use the Falchion

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

There was one romance arc, at the end. But it was poorly done. 

Shipping isn't limited to heterosexual relationships, and Shiro had been confirmed to be gay. Even if he hadn't, when has sexuality really stopped fans from shipping? Case and point, how many people in the Stormlight fandom ship Adolin & Kaladin? Or an OT3 between Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin?

Shipping is based on a lot of things, romance arcs are usually not one of them. Heck, a lot of times romance arcs can actually impede shipping, since the direction the romance moves may not be the direction the fans want it to move (again using Stormlight, there were a few fans upset that Shalladin didn't happen and Shadolin did. Not enough to cause a giant stir, but enough to be noticeable). 

As to how much they could have possibly done...well, everyone was shipped with pretty much everyone, as far as I know. The main ones I remember were: Keith x Shiro, Keith & Lance, Keith & Allura, and Keith & Acxa. But the list goes on...

The show had far issues other than shipping, but to deny the pure frenzy shipping whipped the fandom into would be like trying to ignore an elephant in a room. 

Mind you, my involvement in all of this was very limited. I tried the show when it came out, got three episodes in, and dropped it until right before the final season aired. I binged the first three-four seasons, and then skimmed through the last two because of how boring they were. 

ah, well. I again have underestimated the power of shippers.

[Mistbornwithakitty she/her]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

From shipping? How much could they possibly have done? There where like 2 females and no romance arcs.

I had a friend that was VERY into Voltron.  My advise....don't ask. lol.

EDIT: Oh never mind!  I see it was already answered! 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Mistbornwithakitty

[DramaQueen]

47 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

 

On one hand, I totally understand. Romance and shipping can be distracting and feel like fan-service. And when a majority of the fandom is entirely based on shipping it largely diminishes the story being told (I have this problem with The Dragon Prince and its fandom as a whole - I like the story and love the characters; and I like shipping, but the subreddit is 45% Rayllum, 45% memes, and 10% discussion about whatever controversy has popped up this month/tirades about the clickbait news for Season 4; the Fire Emblem fanbase is a far more complex issue).

On the other hand, the signs of romance and shipping are signs of a lively* fanbase, a great source of inspiration for fan-art, and a decent source for conversation and discourse. This thread is proof of that! 

On the other other hand, there's nothing that says that romance and epic fantasy have to be mutually exclusive. My shounen manga can have romance and work out just fine (look at Rurouni Kenshin), my horror/slasher can be funny (just watch You Might Be the Killer), and my comedy can - and probably should - have moments to discuss serious topics (Brooklyn Nine-Nine's episode "Moo-Moo").  

To me it's all about balance, personal growth, the arc of the character, and most importantly, the skill of the author. If a relationship can push a character to where fans feel like said character needs to go while still being entertaining, then I'm all for it. If it's a hindrance, then I'll probably be against it. If it helps explore a new side of the character, then it can be useful. If it's just for the sake of drama, then one should reconsider (maybe keep it in, but be wary of how much or what it's there for). Sanderson is not the best at romance, but I'd say a majority of his romances have been received positively. I don't see a reason for him to stop trying to improve those now. 

Overall romance in fantastical tales goes back to The Epic of Gligamesh in some ways, and is ALL over Arthurian lore. The amount of shipping is so low in Sanderson's fandoms due to the fact that most romances are obvious on Day 1 and/or are arranged marriages; so what we discuss here is more of an anomaly than a regularity. 

But it's totally your preference and there's nothing wrong with that!

 

*Lively does not mean healthy. The Voltron fanbase was apparently quite lively, and it's infamous for the sheer toxicity it contained. 

I agree with this completely!! I finished rereading Elantris late last night (or early this morning) and I had forgotten how much I love Sarene/Raoden's relationship! (This next part is spoilers for Elantris. It may also be too gushy and romantic for some.)

Spoiler

She ultimately arranges the marriage for political reasons, but her father said that she wouldn't have agreed to it if she didn't believe she could love him. When she first meets "Spirit" during her Widow's Trial, she wants to trust him and begins to develop some feelings for him, despite the fact that he's an Elantrian and she is the princess. She is heartbroken when she learns that he was lying to her, but then when she is "taken by the Shaod," she gets to know him better and falls in love with him. She wants to stay with him, but she eventually is "healed" and has to leave. Then, Raoden escapes from Elantris as Kaloo, and Sarene is the first one to see through his disguise, the only one, even amongst Raoden's best friends. It's just so FREAKING adorable, but doesn't detract from the story at all. There's just enough romance to keep my inner romanticist feeling warm and fuzzy.

I love Sanderson's way of writing romantic subplots, as it is enough romance to keep me wondering about that, but not so much that the romance becomes the plot.

[thejopen27 he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Dude if you want romance read romance, I want epic fantasy, so I read epic fantasy.

It's epic because it's big and contains lot of things. There are 460,000 words in Rhythym of War, that's plenty to spread around.

For the record, I generally dislike shipping and especially shipping culture, but I like fantasy books (which is an inherently romantic genre) that contain romantic plot lines.

Kissing is good and enhances the story, getting defensive about who should or shouldn't kiss is bad and takes away from the story.

plot "...medicine, law, business, engineering, these are noble pursuits and necessary to sustain life. But poetry, beauty, romance, love, these are what we stay alive for."

Edited July 14, 2020 by thejopen27

[Mistbornwithakitty she/her]

2 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

 

 "...medicine, law, business, engineering, these are noble pursuits and necessary to sustain life. But poetry, beauty, romance, love, these are what we stay alive for."

Yep yep yep.  I love books that aren't centered around romance.  I don't really care if there is or isn't particularly, I just care about *relationships* in general.  There's a special feeling when one character you love meets another that you adore, there's a giddiness to reading banter between friends, there's especially joy in a true mentor/apprentice relationship.  We read to feel something we haven't felt before, to hear thoughts we haven't been exposed to before, and to imagine things we'll never see.  

Romance is a part of that fun bit of reading.  Especially if you don't have a partner yourself, it's nice to imagine that others are happy.  It can give ya hope, I think.  But depending on how you view romance in life (like, if you're uncomfortable with it/just don't enjoy it) then I can understand why there might not be that draw.  I do agree that shipping can get unhealthy when that's all you consume media for.  The internet just makes it easier to be toxic. 

So yeah, I think shipping has actually been around forever, probably since books have been around.  I mean, aren't stories centered around you wanting this or that really really badly and that's why we all stick around?  Wishing for shipping to disappear is silly, because it won't.  

[Quiver he/him]

Kasnah. Jalladin? Not sure what the ship name is, but KaladinxJasnah.

It's actually one of the ships I've had since the Way of Kings, because I feel it's a relationship which would have to be based on intellectual understanding. I can picture Jasnah being very interested in medicine, and getting a chance to focus on his medical training rather than as 'a soldier' wouldn't be a bad thing for Kaladin. While it's not as much of an obstacle these days, I also feel like Jasnah would have been one of the few people who wouldn't care about Kaladin's status, at least not enough to let them stop her from pursuing a relationship.

And, of course, there is the irony of Kaladin falling for not just any Lighteyes, but one of the most important Lighteyes on Roshar, which would be amusing. 

[revelryintheart she/her]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

From shipping? How much could they possibly have done? There where like 2 females and no romance arcs.

*cough cough* Klance *cough*

Edit: whoops I guess this was already answered

 

@thejopen27 

Ok I get where you're coming from with why romance is important. I agree it is, for most people, a natural part of life, and that Sanderson wants to portray this even in his fictional worlds. But your comment was about wanting there to be more kissing, and sorry, but I don't want to read pages upon pages of Shallan and Adolin making out. If I wanted to read that I would go read a fanfiction.

Edited July 14, 2020 by revelryintheart

[Use the Falchion]

1 hour ago, Quiver said:

Kasnah. Jalladin? Not sure what the ship name is, but KaladinxJasnah.

It's actually one of the ships I've had since the Way of Kings, because I feel it's a relationship which would have to be based on intellectual understanding. I can picture Jasnah being very interested in medicine, and getting a chance to focus on his medical training rather than as 'a soldier' wouldn't be a bad thing for Kaladin. While it's not as much of an obstacle these days, I also feel like Jasnah would have been one of the few people who wouldn't care about Kaladin's status, at least not enough to let them stop her from pursuing a relationship.

And, of course, there is the irony of Kaladin falling for not just any Lighteyes, but one of the most important Lighteyes on Roshar, which would be amusing. 

Jasnadin for the win!

Also, if Kaladin marries Jasnah now, that would make him Queen Consort or King, depending on which title they use. And then one could say...that the way of kings (or rather The Way of Kings) involves the path of slaves. It would also add a bit of subtle allusion to the name of the book. The Way of Kings is not just a book that Dalinar depends on, but the path Kaladin himself is walking, we just didn't realize it yet. 

 

*Technically not true, since she still has to speak Truths instead of Oaths, but thematically it works. 

 

[Greywatch she/her]

16 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Also, if Kaladin marries Jasnah now, that would make him Queen Consort or King, depending on which title they use.

 

It would be Prince Consort, actually.

[Use the Falchion]

2 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

It would be Prince Consort, actually.

Good to know! Thanks for the fact check. 

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Sorry OP, but unfortunately, I cannot be the Shalladin friend you search for. Shalladin is a hard nOTP for me, and I was very relieved at the end of OB when they decided they weren't right for each other. That topic's been talked to death and I feel like it's rude to talk about why you don't like someone else's ship to them, so I won't go into all the reasons I didn't like it, but I definitely felt like the story had dodged a bullet when she chose Adolin at the end.

In terms of my own Stormlight ships, Kadolin is waaaaay up there. Kaladin and Adolin have such a magnetic, addictive chemistry and it feels like their relationship has just grown stronger and stronger as the books progress. Is it going to be canon? Probably not. But it's amazing regardless. The only correct solution to the "love triangle" is with Adolin in the middle, if you ask me, ha.

A diagram, for reference:

Spoiler

I'm very proud of Kaladin's dumb scribble brands, thanks.

Shadolin is... fine, I guess? It's better than Shalladin for me but also I don't really get excited about it. Probably wouldn't ever really make content for them. In terms of canon ships, it's decent. No complaints, at least.

After Kadolin, Kalarin (Kaladin/Renarin) would probably be my next favorite ship. Much as I love Kadolin, I've probably written more stuff for Kalarin, though I blame the fact that I hung out with lots of Kalarin shippers for a while and they rubbed off on me. It's just such a different dynamic. Kadolin has that great rivals-to-lovers, bonded-in-combat-together kind of vibe, and Adolin is just so good at looking out for Kaladin's mental health too; but every so often you just want a ship that's fluffy and gentle, and that's Kalarin all the way. The scene where Renarin works up the courage to ask to join Bridge Four and Kaladin just... immediately understands how hard it was for him, and how much he just really needs a place to belong, ohh my heart just melts. I have a reputation around the fandom for Renarin being my favorite character of all time and I just get teary when people are nice to him and think he's a valuable person, and Kaladin was so great about that.

I have written some things for Shasnah, though those were more for friends than necessarily it being my own ship. Personally, I think Jasnah is definitely Shallan's type (and that she absolutely had a baby bi crush on Jasnah in WoK), but Shallan doesn't really strike me as Jasnah's type. For Jasnah ships, I feel like Khriss would be my pick for her. Two fierce, noble scholar ladies discovering the secrets of the Cosmere together, who wouldn't want that?

Finally, my terrible, dumpster-fire unhealthy ship: Mraize/Veil. I absolutely love a good charismatic, manipulative villain, and I especially love it when two very smart characters are trying to outwit and outplay one another from behind the guise of sharp smiles and paper-thin politeness. Tack onto it that Mraize is very well-dressed and well-spoken and he's absolutely my villain-crush type. The strength of emotions between enmity and attraction, the intimacy of trying to get inside your opponent's head, the manipulative mix of wanting the approval of someone you're trying to beat in a very dangerous game, its all just *chef kiss.* It's definitely not the kind of ship for everyone but it hits all the shipping buttons I love. 

[LadyLameness]

Kadolin has always jumped out to me from their interactions. Maybe I'm just used to looking for subtle potential queer relationships (even if they're fanon instead of canon) but my fangirling hit hard from their first interaction in the marketplace and then was fully cemented at the end of WoK. It very much reads to me as an 'adversary to boyfriends' slowburn where they both need to learn how to interact with someone who won't treat them like the persona they present to the world. Adolin doesn't treat Kaladin as a leader or admire him the same way Bridge Four does - sure he grows to respect Kaladin but he never puts him on a pedestal. Kaladin, in turn, has to grapple with the fact that lighteyes aren't this class of awful people and that that Adolin is honorable and just a good guy. The scene in OB where the wall guard start poking fun of Adolin because he's a lighteyes is a great relationship growth moment for me - Kaladin's internal reaction of how they're wrong and that Adolin doesn't deserve that treatment really shows how much Kaladin has grown by having a relationship with Adolin.

Shaladin I'm on the fence about. I think they could be good for each other but don't think they are currently good together. I think that they both need to tackle their own mental health problems and be able to deal with them individually before they could have a healthy relationship, otherwise they would feed into each other and ultimately crash and burn. As it stands, I think Kaladin's fear of losing people would evolve into him always putting Shallan first, and above his own needs, and lead into a really codependent dynamic. I think this behaviour would also come into conflict with Shallan's dislike of being controlled - as someone mentioned earlier, she got pretty defensive against Adolin, I think it would be worse with Kaladin. Adolin, I think, is able to step back when asked and not override Shallan's own control of her life, but I think Kaladin would really struggle to do the same because he's always been the leader who is in control of the lives of others and taken on the duty where he has to take care of people. Shallan also, is so used to withdrawing and avoiding things that if they ever had conflict then that's what I see her doing. Communication breakdown, (really anytime) but particularly during hard times can make or break a relationship and I think Shallan (and maybe even Kaladin) would end up stonewalling and not be willing to be open and vulnerable in order to establish those crucial lines of communication. But, mental health can get better and they can both gain the tools and resources they need to confront their own problems. Those problems won't stop existing, but I very much think if they are able to get to a place where they can individually manage their own issues, then any potential breaking points in their relationship could be effectively managed. 

Though, I think overall I would prefer to have friends!Shaladin. Male/female friendships are still so rare in media (whether it be books or other media) and I would really like to see a plot where a potential romance blossoms into a lasting and close friendship. They definitely have chemistry in the books (at least from my read), but I don't think that needs to remain as romantic chemistry. It would be nice to see a story which reaffirms not only that men and women can be friends without it being a prelude to romantic relations, but also that it's possible to go from having a potential romantic relationship to friendship. I don't think there's enough of these stories and it would be nice to see the common cultural trope that men and women can't really just be friends, start breaking down.  

1 hour ago, FeatherWriter said:

For Jasnah ships, I feel like Khriss would be my pick for her. Two fierce, noble scholar ladies discovering the secrets of the Cosmere together, who wouldn't want that?

I'm very on board with this ship. They are my power couple of the cosmere, they're both so badass and I think would stimulate each other intellectually while also be able to provide companionship and care. Another Jasnah ship that I love, which I hadn't initially thought of, is Jasnah/Azure. There's a fanfiction of Ao3 that really encapsulated how they might interact and I was smitten. 

1 hour ago, FeatherWriter said:

I have written some things for Shasnah, though those were more for friends than necessarily it being my own ship. Personally, I think Jasnah is definitely Shallan's type (and that she absolutely had a baby bi crush on Jasnah in WoK), but Shallan doesn't really strike me as Jasnah's type.

Same thinking as Feather - I like Shasnah because of the opportunity it presents for Shallan to explore her bisexuality and see it more as a 'unrequited crush' relationship. 

[Quiver he/him]

11 hours ago, LadyLameness said:

Maybe I'm just used to looking for subtle potential queer relationships (even if they're fanon instead of canon)

I know that Brandon has commented that Shallan is (or might be, or can be interpreted as) bisexual... but I would really, really like it if we had some canon bi!male's in the cast. It's a demographic that tends to get overlooked, I think, and OB has established that queer couples are treated as a normal thing in Alethkar*, and having a bisexual guy as THE lead of the story would be a pretty cool step.

*I'm not entirely sure if that makes sense from a world-building perspective, just given some of the weirdness about Vorinism, but that's a side point

[Hen she/her]

26 minutes ago, Quiver said:

I know that Brandon has commented that Shallan is (or might be, or can be interpreted as) bisexual... but I would really, really like it if we had some canon bi!male's in the cast.

I’ve always hoped Jasnah would be bi or lesbian. I just want to see her roll in one day with her arm locked in her girlfriends and everyone stares after them and suddenly it makes sense why she doesn’t like boys, and whenever someone tries to ask her about it she doesn’t acknowledge it (because that’s how she would handle having a boyfriend too) but still owns up to it in her own Jasnah way. 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Hentient

[Greywatch she/her]

3 hours ago, Quiver said:

I know that Brandon has commented that Shallan is (or might be, or can be interpreted as) bisexual... but I would really, really like it if we had some canon bi!male's in the cast. It's a demographic that tends to get overlooked, I think, and OB has established that queer couples are treated as a normal thing in Alethkar*, and having a bisexual guy as THE lead of the story would be a pretty cool step.

*I'm not entirely sure if that makes sense from a world-building perspective, just given some of the weirdness about Vorinism, but that's a side point

Big agree - I would love to see queer men be more visible in Brandon's works. Fingers crossed for someone at the protagonist level soon.

3 hours ago, Hentient said:

I’ve always hoped Jasnah would be bi or lesbian. I just want to see her roll in one day with her arm locked in her girlfriends and everyone stares after them and suddenly it makes sense why she doesn’t like boys, and whenever someone tries to ask her about it she doesn’t acknowledge it (because that’s how she would handle having a boyfriend too) but still owns up to it in her own Jasnah way.

I want this so much. It rings true for me; fingers crossed as we go forward.

[agrabes]

One thing I've never understood about the shipping and fan fiction community is how popular male/male slash pairings are.  Nothing against those who like it, but I just can't understand the allure of two straight men who have expressed no interest in a same sex romance getting together.  I could at least understand it if one of the characters was shown to be into other men in the main story.  I don't think you see as much of this for female/female pairings between two straight characters, but that equally bothers me.  I suppose maybe the under representation of gay/bi men in most mainstream fiction leads to a big pent up demand?  I'm not really into reading male/male romance anyway, so I'll probably never understand *shrug*.

My first real entrance into shipping was Macross F - amazing anime, but I went down with poor Ranka Lee's ship.  I remember reading pages and pages of shipping wars over that love triangle.

The less mainstream ship I'd most like to see in SA is Kaladin/Laral.  I'd settle for a bit more development between those two, not necessarily them ending up together.  I think Kaladin still likes Laral at least a little.  He respects her intelligence and competence and resiliency.  If he shows up in Hearthstone in RoW then there's a chance that Roshone will die and Laral and Kaladin will spend time together again.  I could see a cool plot where maybe during the gap year Kaladin's been set up with appropriate land and titles and the privileges and responsibilities that come with it.  Laral and Kaladin meet again only this time Kaladin is the one who is higher in society and it's an interesting role reversal from before.  I don't really see Kaladin trying to start something with Laral, but I could see her trying to start something with him to marry into his now higher status position.

[revelryintheart she/her]

9 minutes ago, agrabes said:

One thing I've never understood about the shipping and fan fiction community is how popular male/male slash pairings are.  Nothing against those who like it, but I just can't understand the allure of two straight men who have expressed no interest in a same sex romance getting together.  I could at least understand it if one of the characters was shown to be into other men in the main story.  I don't think you see as much of this for female/female pairings between two straight characters, but that equally bothers me.  I suppose maybe the under representation of gay/bi men in most mainstream fiction leads to a big pent up demand?  I'm not really into reading male/male romance anyway, so I'll probably never understand *shrug*.

Why does every character automatically have to be straight? People say that you have to "prove" that a character is gay to ship them with someone of the same gender. What if we flip it around and say we have to prove that a character is straight in order to ship them with someone of the opposite gender? I understand that most people automatically default to thinking others are straight because that's what's normal for them. I just don't think that you necessarily have to prove a character's sexuality to ship them.

[Negative_Null]

I'm a traditionalist so I ship what Brandon tells us to. But on the ones we don't know... 

Kaladin and Venli. This is probably no, but I love the idea of it. Venli needs a role model and someone who can protect and care for her, and I get the feeling we'll get to see more of her softer side in RoW with Timbre that Kal might need. Plus I always thought the rocks Tien liked were symbolic, and they had white and black swirls that remind me of Singers. There are other things too; they both feel trapped by duty, want to be free, love the power of storms, and want to protect both peoples. Plus I think Syl would like her and Timbre

[LadyLameness]

9 hours ago, Quiver said:

I know that Brandon has commented that Shallan is (or might be, or can be interpreted as) bisexual... but I would really, really like it if we had some canon bi!male's in the cast.

With the poly triad wob coming out last year, I now see Adolin as some level of queer - maybe not bisexual, but certainly not straight. I think it's quite significant that the questioner asked about a triad instead of a V hinge relationship as it indicates there is interest between Kaladin and Adolin, independent of Shallan. This makes me very happy, and I completely agree with you about how it would be nice to have a more openly prominent male character who is bisexual. (Wob below, hidden to conserve length of post).

Spoiler

@elleojelo

Will we get the poly triangle we deserve?

Brandon Sanderson

I could see a world where Shallan and Adolin would go for it, but Kaladin is as prudish as I am, so I doubt you'd persuade him. For now, we'll have to leave that to the imaginations of the fanfic writers.

General Twitter 2019 (Oct. 10, 2019)

 

55 minutes ago, agrabes said:

One thing I've never understood about the shipping and fan fiction community is how popular male/male slash pairings are.  Nothing against those who like it, but I just can't understand the allure of two straight men who have expressed no interest in a same sex romance getting together. 

I think this happens for a few reasons, but the big one being that there is a massive under representation of queer relationships in mainstream media. When people don't feel represented in canon then I think it's natural for them to create a space where they can enjoy pairings that reflect their own sexuality and gender. 

I would also like to challenge the idea that the characters definitely appear as straight without interest in same sex romances. There is still a lot of stigma that, I think, leads to queer interactions still being subtly queer coded instead of made explicit. Because of this, interactions that may seem straight to some people appear very differently to others - I think the example of Shallan's bisexuality is a great example of this. Brandon didn't intend to write her as bisexual and I'm going to make an assumption that a lot of readers didn't see her thoughts on Jasnah to be gay, yet they are and Brandon has acknowledged that. I'm also very pleased that Brandon seems to have actively continued to write her character with this in mind - there's a description she gives of Azure in OB that reads to me as very gay. 

There are other interactions like this throughout Brandon's works (I find that Kaladin and Adolin have a lot of chemistry based on their interactions that also reads to me as very gay), that people will pick up on and then a ship is born. But also, as @revelryintheart pointed out, there doesn't need to be a reason behind a ship for it to be valid. Sure, ships can be created based on canon interactions (whether they be direct or indirect in their intention) but ships can also involve characters that have never met or aren't in the same series. 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I don't think you see as much of this for female/female pairings between two straight characters, but that equally bothers me.

I'm bothered by this as well, I would love to see more canonical f/f ships in mainstream media, and would love to see them eventually in the cosmere. In terms of where there are less in fandoms, I think it comes down to two things; underdevelopment and lack of f/f interaction.

Brandon is good at developing female characters - other authors are not. I'm not going to be the best person explain this (I saw a very compelling argument about it and wish I could find it to link to it as it is a much better explanation than I can make), but a lot of authors/show runners etc don't develop their female characters much past a basic outline. It's like when you start a new game of DnD where you have a character sheet with attributes, abilities, some information on their personality, but the character is still rather two dimensional. As the game progresses, more aspects are added and the characters can become much more than what is on the player sheet and could become complex enough that they could be a real person. Female characters often get left at the character sheet level, with maybe a bit more of an addition, while male characters become complex enough that they are fully fledged individuals who happen to be a fictional character. 

I rarely ship f/f pairings because of this. Female characters I find to be boring and lack the complexity.. Male characters, however, are much more interesting and I want to see more of them outside of canon. I would very much love if more writers were able to develop their characters, irrespective of gender, to be highly complex like Brandon can.

Then there's the aspect of interactions and this is something I think Brandon needs to improve on. How many female characters do we have compared to male characters in Stormlight? How many of those female characters have meaningful interactions with other female characters on screen? Are those characters related? Is there a massive age gap? Of course, these things matter to different people to different degrees, but I think that they can shape someones expectations regarding f/f pairings because the field of choices is so skeletal and the opportunity brought by on screen chemistry is nonexistent. 

Hopefully that helps give a bit of insight, though of course these are all my views and shaped by my own experiences, and will differ for others. 

[agrabes]

14 hours ago, revelryintheart said:

Why does every character automatically have to be straight? People say that you have to "prove" that a character is gay to ship them with someone of the same gender. What if we flip it around and say we have to prove that a character is straight in order to ship them with someone of the opposite gender? I understand that most people automatically default to thinking others are straight because that's what's normal for them. I just don't think that you necessarily have to prove a character's sexuality to ship them.

I don't think there's a need to "prove" it - but you should have at least some kind of reason to believe the two characters might be interested in each other sexually.  I think that if there is a character in a book who is never shown expressing any sexual interest in anyone of any gender, then you could in theory ship them as any sexuality.  Or, I guess "ship" them as an asexual.  But, with characters like Adolin and Kaladin who have clearly expressed only straight sexuality, then it's a stretch to ship them together, imo.  I mean, at least it makes no sense to me.  Again, I'm not attacking people who do this, but to me the fact that doing something like this is so common just seems strange.

13 hours ago, LadyLameness said:

With the poly triad wob coming out last year, I now see Adolin as some level of queer - maybe not bisexual, but certainly not straight. I think it's quite significant that the questioner asked about a triad instead of a V hinge relationship as it indicates there is interest between Kaladin and Adolin, independent of Shallan. This makes me very happy, and I completely agree with you about how it would be nice to have a more openly prominent male character who is bisexual. (Wob below, hidden to conserve length of post).

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@elleojelo

Will we get the poly triangle we deserve?

Brandon Sanderson

I could see a world where Shallan and Adolin would go for it, but Kaladin is as prudish as I am, so I doubt you'd persuade him. For now, we'll have to leave that to the imaginations of the fanfic writers.

General Twitter 2019 (Oct. 10, 2019)

 

I think this happens for a few reasons, but the big one being that there is a massive under representation of queer relationships in mainstream media. When people don't feel represented in canon then I think it's natural for them to create a space where they can enjoy pairings that reflect their own sexuality and gender. 

I would also like to challenge the idea that the characters definitely appear as straight without interest in same sex romances. There is still a lot of stigma that, I think, leads to queer interactions still being subtly queer coded instead of made explicit. Because of this, interactions that may seem straight to some people appear very differently to others - I think the example of Shallan's bisexuality is a great example of this. Brandon didn't intend to write her as bisexual and I'm going to make an assumption that a lot of readers didn't see her thoughts on Jasnah to be gay, yet they are and Brandon has acknowledged that. I'm also very pleased that Brandon seems to have actively continued to write her character with this in mind - there's a description she gives of Azure in OB that reads to me as very gay. 

There are other interactions like this throughout Brandon's works (I find that Kaladin and Adolin have a lot of chemistry based on their interactions that also reads to me as very gay), that people will pick up on and then a ship is born. But also, as @revelryintheart pointed out, there doesn't need to be a reason behind a ship for it to be valid. Sure, ships can be created based on canon interactions (whether they be direct or indirect in their intention) but ships can also involve characters that have never met or aren't in the same series. 

I'm bothered by this as well, I would love to see more canonical f/f ships in mainstream media, and would love to see them eventually in the cosmere. In terms of where there are less in fandoms, I think it comes down to two things; underdevelopment and lack of f/f interaction.

Brandon is good at developing female characters - other authors are not. I'm not going to be the best person explain this (I saw a very compelling argument about it and wish I could find it to link to it as it is a much better explanation than I can make), but a lot of authors/show runners etc don't develop their female characters much past a basic outline. It's like when you start a new game of DnD where you have a character sheet with attributes, abilities, some information on their personality, but the character is still rather two dimensional. As the game progresses, more aspects are added and the characters can become much more than what is on the player sheet and could become complex enough that they could be a real person. Female characters often get left at the character sheet level, with maybe a bit more of an addition, while male characters become complex enough that they are fully fledged individuals who happen to be a fictional character. 

I rarely ship f/f pairings because of this. Female characters I find to be boring and lack the complexity.. Male characters, however, are much more interesting and I want to see more of them outside of canon. I would very much love if more writers were able to develop their characters, irrespective of gender, to be highly complex like Brandon can.

Then there's the aspect of interactions and this is something I think Brandon needs to improve on. How many female characters do we have compared to male characters in Stormlight? How many of those female characters have meaningful interactions with other female characters on screen? Are those characters related? Is there a massive age gap? Of course, these things matter to different people to different degrees, but I think that they can shape someones expectations regarding f/f pairings because the field of choices is so skeletal and the opportunity brought by on screen chemistry is nonexistent. 

Hopefully that helps give a bit of insight, though of course these are all my views and shaped by my own experiences, and will differ for others. 

This was a good response and definitely provides perspective.  I guess if you think about the world of shipping, it's often only based a little bit in canon.  People might ship two characters together who have barely even talked on screen.  Basically, a hope that character X is secretly in love with character Y even though it's not been explicitly shown on screen.  So, I guess this is only stretching it a little further.  That even though character X has never been shown on screen to have a certain sexuality, it might be there somewhere if you read certain lines in the right way.  Especially if you are that sexuality yourself, I could understand it.  But the shear amount of male/male pairings still feels disproportionate.  I guess maybe that says something about the demographics of the fan fiction community?  Your point about how female characters are often written in lower quality (or at least the ones beyond maybe the one or two major characters) leading to fewer f/f pairings does make sense too though.

I think a lot of this is why someone like me can't enter the world of the "true" shippers.  I personally feel a ship has to have at least some basis in canon - officially published material, not the author's answers in Q&A sessions or Reddit AMAs.  I don't want to say it's invalid if it doesn't have that basis, but I guess it's just outside what interests me personally.  Also, I have to be able to see a little of myself "in" the ship for it to really click with me and I just can't relate to it for gay or bi ships.  So while I could support bi pairings for Shallan because I think there is enough evidence in the books to imply she would be into it, it's not something I get fired up about.  I can respect people having a desire for a male/male relationship between more major characters, but I guess I'll leave those ships for the people who are into it to discuss.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I think Lady said it very well, but yeah I definitely think an over-reliance on what is explicitly canon hinders the experience. Canon is the basis, it tells us who these characters are, what they value, what they want. But I as a reader and a fandom member get to take that canon and build on it, explore it in my own ways. Shipping is about dynamics, chemistry, charisma. Regardless of whether or not I think Brandon's going to write these characters being in a relationship together in the books, do I as a reader see them as compatible? Kaladin and Adolin have great chemistry, they're opposites in many ways that fit together nicely, but they're also just very supportive of each other and care about each other. Sure, plenty of people are never going to read anything deeper into their on-screen interactions, but for those of us who resonate with that dynamic, those canon moments feel more special. 

Shipping is something that gets written off by a lot of communities as something silly, it's just for people who want to see characters kiss each other, or be sexy or whatever. But shipping done well is character appreciation. It's learning to explore characters in such a deep way that you start to extrapolate that character's bonds with others. Like mixing two shades of paint to see what new color results. How could these characters make each other better? How can they make each other's problems worse? What are their strengths, flaws, wishes, and how do those things interact with the other person's strengths, flaws, wishes? What would happen if they were in a different setting? What would happen if they'd met in a different way? Who are they in relation to themselves, and who are they in relation to the other person? Thinking about these sorts of extrapolations as separate or divorced from canon isn't really accurate, rather I would say they help you understand the characters in their canon state better. 

If we think of canon as moving in a clean line in one direction, theorizing is trying to guess where that line is going next. If it's not on the line or not going to be on the line, the theorizing side doesn't care. Shipping and other creative fandom endeavors is more like exploring all the other angles the line could have taken, filling in the empty spaces around. We appreciate canon more deeply because we can keep coming back to it as a starting place, playing with its implications, using Brandon's story and set-up as the clay to sculpt whatever we want to see. 

I am driven by characters in the books, it's why I read cosmere. Realmatic theory, WoBs, those aren't what get me excited about reading Brandon's books. It's his rich characters, who are people I like and people I'm interested in reading about. I want to dig into the motivations and struggles and all that nitty gritty of what makes each character themselves, and how that drives them through the plot. There's plenty of fans who don't think this way, who are fine sticking to the line Brandon gives and taking the books and characters at face value and being satisfied with that. But for those of us who love the story and character's potential to be more, who show our love of the cosmere by exploring possibilities rather than staying fixed on the set canon, well... most of us end up as shippers. 

I hope that maybe helps clarify some of the mindset? It really saddens me that 17s doesn't really have the same rich shipping communities that I've loved in other fandoms or other cosmere groups. I think the more people are used to the idea of shipping and speculative creativity as an expression of fandom and the way those conversations can be valuable and engaging—even if they don't really get into those discussions themselves—I think the 17s fandom side would be a richer, more interesting place.

[Greywatch she/her]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I don't think there's a need to "prove" it - but you should have at least some kind of reason to believe the two characters might be interested in each other sexually.  I think that if there is a character in a book who is never shown expressing any sexual interest in anyone of any gender, then you could in theory ship them as any sexuality.  Or, I guess "ship" them as an asexual.  But, with characters like Adolin and Kaladin who have clearly expressed only straight sexuality, then it's a stretch to ship them together, imo.  I mean, at least it makes no sense to me.  Again, I'm not attacking people who do this, but to me the fact that doing something like this is so common just seems strange.

I would push back on this, and I don't think there's any kind of reason required. As a shipper, I am not bound or limited by what Brandon decides will happen. Knowing that Kaladin/Adolin is likely not to ever happen in canon doesn't have anything to do with my thoughts on what a good ship they are. If you're not interested in gay ships, you're not interested - but justification on their sexual orientation is not a requirement, and your idea that it has to be part of the conversation is genuinely puzzling. There's two responses to that: (1) there's no proof that they're not interested in men (to spell it out for those who need it: attraction to women doesn't equal lack of attraction to men) and (2) it actually doesn't matter to shippers whatsoever.

Following up on what Feather said, yes absolutely. It's not a stretch because no shipping requires it. Canon doesn't limit the shipping possibilities, canon is a starting point. Shipping is an exploration of character. It's actually one of the the reasons that I find canon ships boring in comparison to non-canon ships, because the canon has taken all the mystery and fun out of the exploration. When I ship, I don't want the thinking about it to be done for me, I want to do it myself. Having it constantly dismissed here - in this thread, these forums - as just wanting to see them kissing is annoying, but comments like that also just miss the mark. Sure, kissing is part of it, but that's not even close to the entirety of the experience.

[Negative_Null]

I'll be totally honest, I see both sides fairly well, but I err more on the side of not doing ship stuff. I like to speculate and theorize on what the future of characters is (like Kaladin and Venli, which still no one has responded to ), but whenever there is a canon ship, I see anything else as sort of... pointless, I guess? 
For example, If I see someone still shipping Luke and Leia and they're just choosing to ignore Return of the Jedi, I'd view that less as "using canon as a starting point" and more as just misusing the characters and hurting their own story. Same is true for Shallan and Kaladin. Now, an Alternate Universe where Luke and Leia aren't siblings and Han isn't there? I'll read it. An AU where Shallan's personality gets taken over by Veil? Dope, I'll read it. 
On a related note, relationships we don't get enough details on or that happen behind the scenes, I'm totally happy with. I ship Rashendi now, and I think people that ship Finn with Rey, Rose, or whoever the new girl is are all equally correct.

On sexuality... I don't think that matters as much as some people make it (but I'm straight, so pinch of copper), and whatever you want to ship, just do it. I have some specific arguments against certain characters (why do people ship Kaladin and Moash?), but as long as what you ship makes you happy, go for it.

I also think our fandom as a whole tends to not be ship centric. We're very Elsecaller/Truthwatchery as a whole and like to look for the "right" answer rather than make our own. I'm totally guilty of this.

TL,DR, Ship what you want, it's not hurting anyone, we just suck at doing it

[Greywatch she/her]

11 minutes ago, Negative_Null said:

I also think our fandom as a whole tends to not be ship centric. We're very Elsecaller/Truthwatchery as a whole and like to look for the "right" answer rather than make our own. I'm totally guilty of this.

TL,DR, Ship what you want, it's not hurting anyone, we just suck at doing it

This is not true. 17th Shard is not great at shipping, but there are plenty of other cosmere fan communities who do it and do it well.