Ships!!!

[Negative_Null]

8 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

This is not true. 17th Shard is not great at shipping, but there are plenty of other cosmere fan communities who do it and do it well.

I've really only been here, so I apologize to all other cosmere fan communities

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

I would push back on this, and I don't think there's any kind of reason required. As a shipper, I am not bound or limited by what Brandon decides will happen. Knowing that Kaladin/Adolin is likely not to ever happen in canon doesn't have anything to do with my thoughts on what a good ship they are. If you're not interested in gay ships, you're not interested - but justification on their sexual orientation is not a requirement, and your idea that it has to be part of the conversation is genuinely puzzling. There's two responses to that: (1) there's no proof that they're not interested in men (to spell it out for those who need it: attraction to women doesn't equal lack of attraction to men) and (2) it actually doesn't matter to shippers whatsoever.

Following up on what Feather said, yes absolutely. It's not a stretch because no shipping requires it. Canon doesn't limit the shipping possibilities, canon is a starting point. Shipping is an exploration of character. It's actually one of the the reasons that I find canon ships boring in comparison to non-canon ships, because the canon has taken all the mystery and fun out of the exploration. When I ship, I don't want the thinking about it to be done for me, I want to do it myself. Having it constantly dismissed here - in this thread, these forums - as just wanting to see them kissing is annoying, but comments like that also just miss the mark. Sure, kissing is part of it, but that's not even close to the entirety of the experience.

I think it comes down to the fact that not everyone sees things the way that you do and not every community is the same.  What you dislike about this community - the lack of interest in more speculative shipping - is something I like about it.  For you, it may seem equally fine to ship anyone with anyone else.  And that's great, if that's what you like then by all means do it.  I've got nothing against people doing the kind of shipping that you like, though I personally don't want to participate.  Normally, I just stay quiet about this stuff and participate in discussions only about ships that I personally enjoy.  The reason I posted in this thread was to try to understand the perspective of people who do the more speculative shipping, especially male/male slash pairings.  And I thought LadyLameness' post was a great explanation.

I'm only saying what makes the kind of "lesser shipping" that I like enjoyable for me personally.  And for me personally, shipping against a character's sexuality feels like a violation of that character.  It feels like taking who that character is and what they believe in and changing it based on your own desires.  It may not feel that way for you, but it does for me.  No, attraction to women does not equal lack of attraction to men.  But, when an omniscient third person narrator is telling us a character's thoughts and feelings and they do not include attraction to men, then that does equal lack of attraction to men in my view.  

I guess what it comes down to is that I think the parts of shipping that you like fall more into the category of fan fiction.  And again, nothing against that, but it's not what interests me.  Like some of the stuff Negative_Null is saying about alternate realities, etc.  I mean, hey that's cool and I'm glad there are people out there who love to write this stuff.  But I'm not going to read it.  I'm interested in talking about what might happen in the books - dissecting the potential relationships that are actually shown in the canon.

47 minutes ago, Negative_Null said:

I'll be totally honest, I see both sides fairly well, but I err more on the side of not doing ship stuff. I like to speculate and theorize on what the future of characters is (like Kaladin and Venli, which still no one has responded to ), but whenever there is a canon ship, I see anything else as sort of... pointless, I guess? 
For example, If I see someone still shipping Luke and Leia and they're just choosing to ignore Return of the Jedi, I'd view that less as "using canon as a starting point" and more as just misusing the characters and hurting their own story. Same is true for Shallan and Kaladin. Now, an Alternate Universe where Luke and Leia aren't siblings and Han isn't there? I'll read it. An AU where Shallan's personality gets taken over by Veil? Dope, I'll read it. 
On a related note, relationships we don't get enough details on or that happen behind the scenes, I'm totally happy with. I ship Rashendi now, and I think people that ship Finn with Rey, Rose, or whoever the new girl is are all equally correct.

On sexuality... I don't think that matters as much as some people make it (but I'm straight, so pinch of copper), and whatever you want to ship, just do it. I have some specific arguments against certain characters (why do people ship Kaladin and Moash?), but as long as what you ship makes you happy, go for it.

I also think our fandom as a whole tends to not be ship centric. We're very Elsecaller/Truthwatchery as a whole and like to look for the "right" answer rather than make our own. I'm totally guilty of this.

TL,DR, Ship what you want, it's not hurting anyone, we just suck at doing it

The Venli/Kaladin ship to me is interesting and a cool idea.  I just think there's not enough to go on yet to have much of a conversation, but I predict after RoW there will be a lot more material!

[Use the Falchion]

I forgot to mention this on this thread, but if Renarin x Lift doesn't happen, then I'd be interested in seeing how Renarin x Rysn would work. 

[Negative_Null]

Yay, I got noticed!

8 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I'm only saying what makes the kind of "lesser shipping" that I like enjoyable for me personally.  And for me personally, shipping against a character's sexuality feels like a violation of that character.  It feels like taking who that character is and what they believe in and changing it based on your own desires.  It may not feel that way for you, but it does for me.  No, attraction to women does not equal lack of attraction to men.  But, when an omniscient third person narrator is telling us a character's thoughts and feelings and they do not include attraction to men, then that does equal lack of attraction to men in my view.  

I guess what it comes down to is that I think the parts of shipping that you like fall more into the category of fan fiction.  And again, nothing against that, but it's not what interests me.  Like some of the stuff Negative_Null is saying about alternate realities, etc.  I mean, hey that's cool and I'm glad there are people out there who love to write this stuff.  But I'm not going to read it.  I'm interested in talking about what might happen in the books - dissecting the potential relationships that are actually shown in the canon.

I think you made my point better than I could have. I do kind of see Kaladin and Adolin from sort of an outside perspective, but  considering Kaladin's reactions to romance and sexuality in other places I don't think it fits well. 
Now, on characters we don't get a viewpoint for, at least when romance comes up, like Jasnah or Renarin, do whatever you want, I think. 
 

Edit:responding so I don't double post

I love RenarinxRysn now. Both are some of my favorite characters. Thanks for that. Is it Renarysn? Rysnarin?

Edited July 16, 2020 by Negative_Null
Responding so J don't double post

[Greywatch]

@agrabes Sure, it's all taste and our varying levels of it. However the "But they're not gay!" response is something that misses the mark, and it stalls conversation. It rings true for realmatic theorizers, and rings... completely hollow for people like me. I would definitely posit one of the reasons shippers don't feel welcome or respected here is the basic response of nitpicking the reasons for ships as if they were theories. Ships aren't theories, they're playgrounds, and if someone doesn't want to play, that shines through.

When someone suggests a ship that I've never heard before, the sexuality doesn't come into it. If someone is suggesting a ship, the sexuality is a given. I'm being asked to buy into the scenario, and if my response is a list of problems with the scenario before we even get to play with it, it's no longer fun and interesting. Believe me, the community of people who ship feel as much boredom and contempt about realmatic theorizing as some people here feel about shipping.

[agrabes]

42 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

@agrabes Sure, it's all taste and our varying levels of it. However the "But they're not gay!" response is something that misses the mark, and it stalls conversation. It rings true for realmatic theorizers, and rings... completely hollow for people like me. I would definitely posit one of the reasons shippers don't feel welcome or respected here is the basic response of nitpicking the reasons for ships as if they were theories. Ships aren't theories, they're playgrounds, and if someone doesn't want to play, that shines through.

When someone suggests a ship that I've never heard before, the sexuality doesn't come into it. If someone is suggesting a ship, the sexuality is a given. I'm being asked to buy into the scenario, and if my response is a list of problems with the scenario before we even get to play with it, it's no longer fun and interesting. Believe me, the community of people who ship feel as much boredom and contempt about realmatic theorizing as some people here feel about shipping.

Yep, very fair.  My mind just doesn't work that way and that's why I stay out of that kind of shipping discussion.  I think it's a category all on its own, somewhere in between fan fiction and just discussion of the books.  To me, ships are theories, or maybe a better term for it is arguments.  To me the reason ships exist is because there's an unresolved romantic conflict in fiction and people take sides and try to prove who is right or wrong.  Like the infamous Team Jacob and Team Edward.  I just want to discuss opinions on what has happened or what will happen in the books.  But that's just me.

To be fair, a lot of the pie in the sky theorizing people do here drives me nuts too.  Like - Ok, yes Sanderson did say a throwaway line about some obscure property of an unlikely Allomancy/Hemalurgy combination at some Q&A event.  Maybe Nightblood could destroy the whole cosmere if wielded by the reformed Adonalsium!  That has no bearing on anything!  But, I know I can get pretty pedantic on stuff and anyone who isn't part of this kind of community would have a good laugh if they realized how much time I spent debating the theoretical economic conditions of a fantasy world.

[Greywatch]

3 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Yep, very fair.  My mind just doesn't work that way and that's why I stay out of that kind of shipping discussion.  I think it's a category all on its own, somewhere in between fan fiction and just discussion of the books.  To me, ships are theories, or maybe a better term for it is arguments.  To me the reason ships exist is because there's an unresolved romantic conflict in fiction and people take sides and try to prove who is right or wrong.  Like the infamous Team Jacob and Team Edward.  I just want to discuss opinions on what has happened or what will happen in the books.  But that's just me.

Yes, I consider the conversations about what relationship is more valid in canon as a completely separate animal from the actual shipping activities. Shipping itself is not an argument.

[LadyLameness]

6 hours ago, Negative_Null said:

(why do people ship Kaladin and Moash?)

Amusingly enough I never thought I would ship Kaladin/Moash and then I read a fanfiction with surprise!Kaladin/Moash and it drew me in. I was very mock outrage afterwards Oh my god how dare they make me like Kaladin/Moash (All joking in tone though). I don't ship them generally, but I do see the potential for an enemy to lovers or hate relationship. 

5 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I'd be interested in seeing how Renarin x Rysn would work. 

This is not a pairing I had considered but it resonates with me.

5 hours ago, Negative_Null said:

Renarysn? Rysnarin?

My choice would probably be Rysarin (Your second response with the middle N dropped - it makes me stumble in the middle of trying to pronounce it)

[Kuram]

I don't really ship or care about shipping, so this is more or less how I think the story might go rather than fanatical shipping... or at least a way it could go and be interesting:

I've recently come to believe Kaladin will end up in some sort of relationship with Venli.  I don't really have anything to base this on, but I think a traditional willshaper would be a perfect foil to Kaladin's personality, plus they are the same age roughly, or within a year or so.  I don't really buy jasnah/kaladin, they would clash too much, Syl would just be weird in a not-good way, and I think Tarah represents too much of Kaladin's past, someone he isn't anymore.  I also think it will have to be someone important to the story, more for narrative reasons than anything, and Kaladin has shown himself to be one of the few people (maybe in the whole world so far) who sees the Singers as real people and not just monsters or enemies.

 

Quote

Second, Spren. Bonded spren reflects some parts of Radiants personality. And their spren dont like each other. And they spend all the time with them, this has to be impactfull.

Syl doesn't mind Pattern though, after they spent that time together.  I also don't like shalladin, however.  Triangles are annoying, and Sanderson doesn't focus on romance so I think he'll shy away from that quagmire.  A human-singer relationship would be much more interesting to explore.

 

On 7/11/2020 at 10:31 AM, Bzhydack said:

On 7/11/2020 at 4:59 PM, Isilel said:

Really? Given Vasher's history you'd foist him on poor Vivenna?

  Hide contents

He murdered his wife after all, because she disagreed with him on the sharing  of  awakened sword technology - and both Warbreaker appendices from Sanderson's homepage and OB events strongly suggest that she was right and Nightblood was a fluke. In fact, Vivenna in OB does exactly what he killed Shashara for. He also killed Arsteel over a misunderstanding. Basically, if you disagree with Vasher, you are likely to end up dead. I love the character, but I wouldn't wish him on my worst enemy, romantically.

It is also kinda disheartening if just because they are different genders their relationship couldn't be a teacher and student one, growing into friendship... I'd much rather see Vivenna with Kaladin or whoever.

 

 

I think it's more likely that Vasher and Vivenna figured out how to fix the flaw of Nightblood and do another blade better.  This is alluded to several times in warbreaker, with regards to the command and intention used to initially awaken it.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Kuram