THEORY: the "lies" in Mraize's letter about Helaran... Are about Shallan's parents

[+robardin]

So Mraize's letter to Shallan in Oathbreaker Ch. 40 has a lot of stuff about the Sons of Honor, the madness of Heralds, and the nature and mission of the Skybreakers, all of which we've seen separate corroboration of. What doesn't ring quite as true are the bits describing Shallan's family.

There's already a thread speculating about the true allegiance of Helaran and the source of his Shards. But what I've begun to wonder is exactly what group was behind Shallan's mother trying to kill her as a child? That group evidently knew there was a Surgebinder in the Davar household, which is why Shallan's mother and her "friend" tried to kill her as a child. That fits in with the Skybreaker mandate as we know it to have been at the time.

So... Skybreakers, as claimed by Mraize, who thought he was the one "attracting a spren" in the Davar household, so tried to make him a Skybreaker? That doesn't fit with what we know actually happened, right?

This was Shallan's "true memory" of the events that constituted her (re-achieving) the Third Ideal:

Quote

She remembered it now. Her mother's arrival, with a friend Shallan didn't recognize, to confront her father. Her mother's shouts, arguing with her father.

Mother calling Shallan one of them.

... The friend had won that [struggle with her father], eventually holding Father down, pinned on the ground. Mother took the knife and came for Shallan.

Shallan then killed both her mother and her "friend" with her Patternblade.

If they were Skybreakers, as Mraize claimed, how is it that Shallan then continued living unmolested for years with her father and brothers? Surely the "friend", if he had been a Skybreaker, would have had his failure to return and report noticed. And Nalan doesn't seem like the giving-up-after-one-underling-failed type of guy.

Also, her mother's first action was not to go after Shallan directly, with her "friend" as backup or supervisor, but to confront and argue with her father, as if they ought to have been on the same page with this conclusion, with him being difficult about an unpleasant but necessary task.

So either her father had also been a Skybreaker, who broke with them over this matter of killing Shallan and then somehow covered it all up such that they never followed up again, and then switched over to the Ghostbloods (perhaps for protection against the Skybreakers?)....

Or they had ALL been Ghostbloods, with a reason at the time to want Shallan as "one of them" dead, whatever "them" indicated, and that her father managed to recast events to the GBs in a way to suggested "mission accomplished" or to convince them to take another tack. "She could be valuable to us in the future", or "I will keep her Light suppressed", or some such.

Mraize had early on admitted that killing another Ghostblood, even a senior one, "is not forbidden, but it is hardly encouraged", and that "your family has a long history of involvement in these events." He also seems to know that Shallan Davar is a Lightweaver - and not a Truthwatcher, the other Order that could spin illusions to mask herself as Veil -  by commenting on her being a living Soulcaster.

And Helaran? the last time Shallan ever saw him, he'd returned to their house with a Shardblade, and did and said some interesting things (Words of Radiance, Chapter 19).

He sees Shallan drawing, and notices that almost against her will, she began sketching "bodies, facedown, on the floor", as the charcoal seeped out of the texture like blood. He doesn't freak out, but crumples it up quickly and tells her, "Draw plants and animals. Safe things, Shallan. Don't dwell on what happened." He knows what she is doing and what it can do or represent. "We can't have vengeance yet... Balat can't lead the house, and I must be away."

Vengeance? He blames his father, and not Shallan, for their mother's death. Right? But, he also doesn't want to kill Shallan. Hmm.

He confronts his father with "his crimes", calling him a "vile corruption upon this house" and a "murderer" while putting a Shardblade to his chest, to which his terrified father replies, "You don't know what you think you know. Your mother --"

And then as Helaran leaves, he says to his father, "Try not to ruin too much while I'm gone. I will come back periodically to check." Ruin what?

This is still consistent with them both being Ghostbloods. A Family of Ghostbloods. Once. Who had some kind of mandate that his father derailed, but not completely.

However, it does read like Helaran had gone "above and outside" boundaries known to Lin Davar to gain the Shardblade. The Skybreakers? Maybe?

Or, perhaps, Shallan's mother was not coming to kill her, but to do something else with the knife. Like to carve the Ghostblood triple diamond symbol on her or something? That's a bit more of a stretch.

Edited March 20, 2019 by robardin

[Karger]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Or they had ALL been Ghostbloods, with a reason at the time to want Shallan as "one of them" dead, whatever "them" indicated, and that her father managed to recast events to the GBs in a way to suggested "mission accomplished" or to convince them to take another tack. "She could be valuable to us in the future", or "I will keep her Light suppressed", or some such.

I seriously doubt a group of opportunistic criminals with no known morality would not attempt to make use of a child who can disguise herself or others and soulcast any substance into any other.

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Vengeance? He blames his father, and not Shallan, for their mother's death. Right? But, he also doesn't want to kill Shallan. Hmm.

I would say he clearly blames his father but he is not able to kill him as he has not yet broken the law or because killing him would have a bunch of unfortunate consequences.

2 hours ago, robardin said:

And then as Helaran leaves, he says to his father, "Try not to ruin too much while I'm gone. I will come back periodically to check." Ruin what?

He could just be worried about the status of his siblings.

2 hours ago, robardin said:

However, it does read like Helaran had gone "above and outside" boundaries known to Lin Davar to gain the Shardblade. The Skybreakers? Maybe?

This is consistent with him being a skybreaker a group that would not tolerate ghostblood rejects.

[Bigmikey357]

I think it's fair to note that we may not have all the players yet. 3 books in, we know of 5 secret societies, Sons of Honor, Ghostbloods, Diagram, Skybreakers and the Envisigers. The Sons would have loved Shallan. The Ghostbloods wouldn't hesitate to tutor her in Predatory practices. The Diagram could have made use of her but would be just as likely to leave her in place so that she could effect events locally. The Envisigers are likely all dead, but if there's a pocket of them around Shallan would have been their chosen one. The Skybreakers Skybreakers would wanna end her but Surgebinders aren't illegal in Jah Kaved. What laws has she broken as a child? 

Three possibilities exist. There could be a group that we haven't been introduced to yet that find Surgebinders to be an abomination and wish to end them all. This admittedly is the least likely scenario, and we don't really have to stretch all that far. The Davars are very devout Vorins. We can see that if anything from Shallan's concerns about Jasnah's atheism littered throughout WoK. And the church has more adherence paid to it in Jah Keved. What if the Vorins have a secret Inquisition division? We know they have beef with the KR and in an attempt to prevent them from returning they could spot and kill emerging Surgebinders. A final possibility differs from the first 2 and lets the groups we know of play. What if Shallan's mom and her buddy weren't planning on killing Shallan after all? What if they were trying to take her away and she misunderstood their intentions? The knife in mom's hands looks bad, sure. But the way they subdued Lin instead of killing him paint a somewhat different picture.

That actually puts the Ghostbloods back in play because their agent would have told them of a Surgebinder in the home, yet may not have been able to specify which Davar kid it was.  Peeps would have assumed Heleran when the agent didn't report again. Somehow it got out into the world that Heleran was a Surgebinder when we know that couldn't be the case.

[+robardin]

56 minutes ago, Karger said:

I seriously doubt a group of opportunistic criminals with no known morality would not attempt to make use of a child who can disguise herself or others and soulcast any substance into any other.

I would say he clearly blames his father but he is not able to kill him as he has not yet broken the law or because killing him would have a bunch of unfortunate consequences.

He could just be worried about the status of his siblings.

This is consistent with him being a skybreaker a group that would not tolerate ghostblood rejects.

I don't fully question Helaran having gone a-seeking "justice" from the Skybreakers, believing his father to have murdered his mother. Though his understanding of what Shallan is doing with her drawing seems to counter any kind of Mission he believes himself to be on from the Skybreakers while waving around a Shardblade ("kill Surgebinders").

Of course, we only have Mraize's word so far that he was trying to kill Amaram because of him being a suspected Surgebinder. Maybe the "mission" he was given the Shards for was something else that Mraize either doesn't know or is purposely clouding.

What I question is how Shallan could have escaped the Skybreakers' lethal intentions after her mother and her friend died attempting to kill her, if that (a) was indeed their goal (b) because they were Skybreakers, because as we've seen, that doesn't fit with how Nale does business.

And stopping to argue with her husband about how "she's one of them!" (assuming "she" is Shallan, the context-free use of "them" whose meaning is clear to both speakers). That strongly suggests she expected their intentions to be in complete alignment. All three of them.

Conclusion: they were all three part of some group, and Lin Davar drew the line at going after Shallan. Whether that means they were all Ghostbloods or some yet-unknown group remains to be seen.

Edited March 20, 2019 by robardin

[Karger]

On 3/20/2019 at 5:05 PM, robardin said:

What I question is how Shallan could have escaped the Skybreakers' lethal intentions after her mother and her friend died attempting to kill her, if that (a) was indeed their goal (b) because they were Skybreakers, because as we've seen, that doesn't fit with how Nale does business.

And stopping to argue with her husband about how "she's one of them!" (assuming "she" is Shallan, the context-free use of "them" whose meaning is clear to both speakers). That strongly suggests she expected their intentions to be in complete alignment. All three of them.

Conclusion: they were all three part of some group, and Lin Davar drew the line at going after Shallan. Whether that means they were all Ghostbloods or some yet-unknown group remains to be seen.

Edited 4 hours ago by robardin

Perhaps the only message the Skybreaker command received was something along the lines of "going to Davar household to investigate report of surgebinding" after which the individuals ended up dead under circumstances unknown.  After a period of observation the Skybreaker's concluded that Heleran was likely the suspect and he would make a good candidate and so they adopted him.  The may have suspected Shallan but her self lies were so complete that they would fool any inspection I can think of and so eventually the probably dropped the case.

"She is one of them" is just a fragment of a larger conversation with explanations that  could have come before hand or perhaps Lady Davar confided some of her doings to her husband(we know literally nothing about their relationship).

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Karger

[+Child of Hodor]

The Skybreakers never went after Shallan after she killed her mother because she stopped bonding pattern. The bond wasn’t broken, but on hold or something. 

She wouldn’t draw their attention. Plus if Nale sent a minion and they failed he’d go himself to finish the job and he might not bother if she is no longer exhibiting signs.

Nale clearly noticed something up with Jasnah in WoR prologue. But he never acted on it. He doesn’t always follow through. 

I doubt the mother’s friend was a Ghostblood, they don’t hate radiants like this guy and the mother seemed to. 

This happened 6 years before the books, around when Gavilar was killed. The Diagram wasn’t founded until after Gavilar died. Couldn’t be them. 

[ScavellTane]

They could be part of a different secret society.

[+Child of Hodor]

7 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

They could be part of a different secret society.

True. I feel like we have more than enough in Stormlight though . Envisagers, 17th Shard, Ghostbloods, Sons of Honor, The Diagram, Stormwardens (kinda), Skybreakers, I'd count the Sleepless as this. Stone Shamans as secret keepers of the honorblades. 

There is a theory that the Curates who excommunicate Dalinar are part of a secret splinter group because they dress weird and seem off to Dalinar.

Quote

"The Staves they bore were wound with gemstones, more ornate than he'd expected. Hadn't most of that pomp been done away with at the fall of the Hierocracy?" ... "Dalinar, the Stormfather rumbled. Something is wrong. Something I cannot see, something hidden from me. What are you sensing?" - OB Ch. 100

The Stormfather might also be sensing they are off, although Dalinar is also feeling the Thrill. It reminds me of when the Stormfather sensed The Diagram's spanreed takedown of Dalinar coming. 

Quote

"Something ... something is coming. A storm. ... Spanreeds suddenly started blinking throughout the room." - OB Ch. 111 

All that said, I think the only known secret society that would kill a child simply because they could surgebind is the Skybreakers.  A rundown spoilered for length.

Spoiler

SoH want their return along with the Herald's.

The Diagram is preparing Roshar to withstand the Desolation not prevent it. The Diagram also follows up, when they fail. They have Szeth go back and make another run at Dalinar. They don't want Szeth to kill Kaladin when they learn of him, they want him to stay far away so he doesn't figure out he's a KR.  They also don't send anyone else after Kaladin. Graves actively tries to recruit Kaladin and when Kaladin levels up in front of him he just runs away (wisely). He doesn't show any sign of hating the KR. 

Envisagers would ceremonially put themselves in danger hoping their abilities will manifest to save them. Shallan already had abilities and the mother tried to kill her over them. Envisagers don't actually want surgebinders to die.

17th Shard doesn't meddle (much).

Stormwardens we don't know enough about. 

Ghostbloods made use of Shallan and a Herald who they know is insane. They try to kill Jasnah, but they see her more as a rival.   Mraize mentions Master Thaidakar who is the one Gavilar assumed sent Szeth. "Tell Thaidakar he is too late." Maybe because Thaidakar disagreed with Gavilar's bad plan. That's why they are having Shallan spy on Amaram, they want to know if he knows things that Gavilar knew and is still trying to enact his plan.

The Sleepless on the back cover misses the days before the Final Desolation when the KR were still around. Arclo doesn't hurt Lift. 

Stone Shaman don't seem to care. Szeth thinks about how bad it is to walk on stones and where gems as jewelry, but never thinks about how KR are evil. Neither the mother nor her friend were described as Shin. 

Vorinism has demonized the KR for their abandonment, but everyone following Vorinism feels this way to an extent. Probably not enough to kill their own child. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Child of Hodor

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

The biggest evidence that Heleran isn’t a skybreaker is the fact that he thought Lin Davar killed his wife; we know that Skybreakers have the ability to “divide the innocent and the guilty”.

So if Heleran was a Skybreaker, he would know that Lin was Innocent, and wouldn’t call him a murderer.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

The biggest evidence that Heleran isn’t a skybreaker is the fact that he thought Lin Davar killed his wife; we know that Skybreakers have the ability to “divide the innocent and the guilty”.

So if Heleran was a Skybreaker, he would know that Lin was Innocent, and wouldn’t call him a murderer.

This is not a magical ability. 

Quote

Slowswift [PENDING REVIEW]

Similar to how Lightweavers have, kind of really good memories. Do the Skybreakers have any special abilities for telling guilty and innocent people apart?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No. Good question.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

[Angsos]

I wonder if the Unmade was also affecting shallan's mother because I seriously doubt a completely sane mother would casually kill one of her children, even under direct orders.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Angsos said:

I wonder if the Unmade was also affecting shallan's mother because I seriously doubt a completely sane mother would casually kill one of her children, even under direct orders.

One might if she thought said daughter was threatening an apocalypse.

[Subvisual Haze]

On 3/20/2019 at 11:25 PM, Child of Hodor said:

The Skybreakers never went after Shallan after she killed her mother because she stopped bonding pattern. The bond wasn’t broken, but on hold or something. 

She wouldn’t draw their attention. Plus if Nale sent a minion and they failed he’d go himself to finish the job and he might not bother if she is no longer exhibiting signs.

Nale clearly noticed something up with Jasnah in WoR prologue. But he never acted on it. He doesn’t always follow through. 

I doubt the mother’s friend was a Ghostblood, they don’t hate radiants like this guy and the mother seemed to. 

This happened 6 years before the books, around when Gavilar was killed. The Diagram wasn’t founded until after Gavilar died. Couldn’t be them. 

Nale always goes through proper channels.  He didn't immediately kill Ym when he suspected Ym was binding a spren, he first did his homework and found a legal justification from the very distant past to execute Ym.  It's a twisted sense of moral logic, but it does make sense considering his need to adhere to the Skybreaker oaths.  He identifies those who are danger of bonding a spren, then digs like crazy to find a legal justification to kill them (or in some kingdoms just gets laws past making surgebinding illegal), and then executes them legally.  Lift being legally pardoned and Jasnah being royalty (effectively above the law) put them beyond his ability to legally execute, so he chose not to pursue them.  Shallan was likely a similar case.  Once her bond with pattern appeared to be broken by traumatic events Nale no longer needed to pursue her as an immediate danger.

Nale's will also isn't perfectly adhered to by all potential Skybreakers.  During the first Lift chapter, one of his minions kills Gax in an improper and illegal way and Nale does not seem pleased and implies the minion will be punished later.  In a similar manner Shallan's mother and friend were likely taking a more direct approach to the danger of Shallan than Nale would have approved at the time.

Personally I think Shallan's mother wanted her children to become Skybreakers and had them swear the first oath of the radiants in hope of attracting a Highspren.  Unexpectedly though Shallan did not attract a Highspren, but rather a Cryptic.

[teknopathetic]

On 2019-03-20 at 3:05 PM, robardin said:

I don't fully question Helaran having gone a-seeking "justice" from the Skybreakers, believing his father to have murdered his mother. Though his understanding of what Shallan is doing with her drawing seems to counter any kind of Mission he believes himself to be on from the Skybreakers while waving around a Shardblade ("kill Surgebinders").

Of course, we only have Mraize's word so far that he was trying to kill Amaram because of him being a suspected Surgebinder. Maybe the "mission" he was given the Shards for was something else that Mraize either doesn't know or is purposely clouding.

What I question is how Shallan could have escaped the Skybreakers' lethal intentions after her mother and her friend died attempting to kill her, if that (a) was indeed their goal (b) because they were Skybreakers, because as we've seen, that doesn't fit with how Nale does business.

And stopping to argue with her husband about how "she's one of them!" (assuming "she" is Shallan, the context-free use of "them" whose meaning is clear to both speakers). That strongly suggests she expected their intentions to be in complete alignment. All three of them.

Conclusion: they were all three part of some group, and Lin Davar drew the line at going after Shallan. Whether that means they were all Ghostbloods or some yet-unknown group remains to be seen.

I wonder if the mother could have been an Envisager? Perhaps they could have been intentionally introducing trauma and NDEs. 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I wonder if the mother could have been an Envisager? Perhaps they could have been intentionally introducing trauma and NDEs. 

If she were an Envisager, why would she be trying to kill a girl who was already showing the use of powers? The Envisagers put people's lives at risk thinking it would make their power surface. 

[Angsos]

I'd also like to know how at 10-year-old or however old Shallan was, got to the fourth ideal.

[Wandering Investor]

1 hour ago, Angsos said:

I'd also like to know how at 10-year-old or however old Shallan was, got to the fourth ideal.

I think little Shallan only got to the second, maybe third oath. She had at least one oath, and maybe two by acknowledging that she killed her father and mother.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

I think little Shallan only got to the second, maybe third oath. She had at least one oath, and maybe two by acknowledging that she killed her father and mother.

She was at least far enough progressed for pattern to be a blade, and while we have wobs saying that that number varies... We also have ones saying it's three "for most orders" and with Bondsmiths not getting blades at all it could be standard for everyone else. 

Then we have this. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that at one point Shallan may have said all the oaths for her order (or may have been capable of saying all of the oaths by the end of the book) but has since regressed due to "memory loss/repression."

Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014)

 

[Isilel]

On 29.3.2019 at 11:44 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

  He identifies those who are danger of bonding a spren, then digs like crazy to find a legal justification to kill them (or in some kingdoms just gets laws past making surgebinding illegal), and then executes them legally. 

Indeed, but I assume that he also had his methods of indirectly dealing with the budding surge-binders without criminal past, or there would have been more of them around than just Jasnah. Like what happened to Tien, for instance, now that it has been confirmed that he had become a Lightweaver and that the Skybreakers were implicated in his demise. We also know that Jasnah has been the target of many assassination attempts, some of which may have been engineered by the Skybreakers.

I'd also point out that Lady Davar's friend, the alleged Skybreaker acolyte, didn't attack Shallan himself, but merely restrained Lin. Which would be in accordance with Nale's twisted "letter of the law" approach. He had incited somebody under his influence to do the deed, but stood aside himself.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Isilel

[Karger]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:57 PM, Calderis said:

If she were an Envisager, why would she be trying to kill a girl who was already showing the use of powers? The Envisagers put people's lives at risk thinking it would make their power surface. 

Perhaps her intention was not to kill Shallan but to threaten her so that her power would manifest in such a way that Lin could see them.

[teknopathetic]

11 hours ago, Karger said:

Perhaps her intention was not to kill Shallan but to threaten her so that her power would manifest in such a way that Lin could see them.

Her mother likely knew for a long time, or at least the father did. It seems odd this would be the first time Shallan's mother had heard of this. There must be more to what happened there, and Envisager makes more sense than anything else. Sure, she already was a Radiant, but the group had had some success already and was trying to increase Shallan's power/ prove what she could do. 

I do admit the manner in which they did it seems weird, but I still think blambing the other the other secret societies makes much sense either. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by teknopathetic

[Subvisual Haze]

Ohhhh was Jasnah's vaguelly alluded to past incident with "madness" and the traumatic treatment of it also the evil machinations of Nale and the Skybreakers?  Lacking a legal way to prosecute a young member of royalty he manipulated things to get her declared insane in an effort to break her spirit psychologically and stop the formation of her nascent spren bond?

[+robardin]

11 hours ago, Karger said:

Perhaps her intention was not to kill Shallan but to threaten her so that her power would manifest in such a way that Lin could see them.

Mission accomplished, then.

I hadn't considered the Envisagers as a possible group but it would kind of make sense. We don't really know what the Envisagers had planned for anybody they actually got to exhibit Surgebinding powers; all we know of them is through the childhood memories of Teft, of people unsuccessfully trying to trigger them in themselves or others via trauma. Teft remembers them "believing" in the Immortal Words and desiring the return of the Voidbringers, Radiants, and Old Vorinism (similar to the Sons of Honor), but there could have been more. After all, Teft also didn't expect the citylord to summarily execute the entire sect, as if there were something on record about the sect and its goals that he didn't (and still doesn't) know. (Perhaps the citylord was in the Sons of Honor, or a Ghostblood?)

It could still fit with my idea that both of Shallan's parents and the mysterious friend were all part of some previously shared plan of Stage Two: What To Do If We Discover One Of THEM, which Shallan's mother was labeling Shallan as being, and her father was resisting it, for her sake.

I could see the Ghostbloods recruiting Lin Davar afterwards as someone who "knew about and has gotten involved with this sort of thing", especially after the Envisagers were all but wiped out due to Teft's exposure of them.

And I think it's clear that Helaran knows what Shallan was doing with her drawing coming to life off the page. Which definitely raises questions about his allegiance and the provenance of his Shards - I don't think the Skybreakers story holds water.

[Karger]

22 hours ago, robardin said:

And I think it's clear that Helaran knows what Shallan was doing with her drawing coming to life off the page. Which definitely raises questions about his allegiance and the provenance of his Shards - I don't think the Skybreakers story holds water.

I find myself doubting that the evisagers had access to shards

[+robardin]

On 4/2/2019 at 8:58 AM, Karger said:

I find myself doubting that the evisagers had access to shards

Perhaps. But I didn't say Herleran was an Envisager, only that it was an interesting idea that Lin and his first wife (Shallan's mother) may have been Envisagers, and that I didn't think Helaran got his Shards from the Skybreakers.

In any case, what we do know of the Envisagers is very limited, to the group that Teft outed to his citylord. There could have been more "chapters" elsewhere.

That clearly doesn't mean that Heleran was also an Envisager, nor that they provided him with the Shards. In fact, regarding the Helaran Question, that's the weakest link in any of the explanations - why would any of these groups give him both Blade and Plate? The Plate could have been "on loan", but we saw that the Blade was bonded when he summoned it to threaten his father, and that it was a "deadspren" Blade from the way it appeared after Kaladin killed him.

That he was a Skybreaker "acolyte" given a deadspren Blade makes no sense; every spren we've seen abhors them as abominations, so the Skybreakers keeping a cache of them around seems unlikely. And giving one to bond (not just to "play with") to an acolyte when Szeth cannot even use Stormlight until being promoted to squire by swearing the Second Ideal until after passing a test with no powers at all. If any outfit would be very clear about the meanings of the rank designations, it would be the Skybreakers.

I mean, we all know there's a "missing piece" to this story - Pattern more or less said so. But I think it's worth noting that it's not limited to the fact that Helaran's story (as told in Mraize's letter) doesn't stand up to scrutiny; neither does the account of what was going on the day Shallan killed her mother and her associate.

Edited April 3, 2019 by robardin