worldbuilding Fantasy World planning

[kenod]

Just now, MacThorstenson said:

The DA needs to be kept relatively low powered, because we have hemalurgy and thus have access to whatever we can steal from other people.

Do we have Hemalurgy here? I thought we'd be mostly using our own magic systems, not cosmere things, just things inspired by cosmere stuff. For example, the body manipulation magic would be the local version of hemalurgy.
Also, if we keep Ritual magic stealing stuff wouldn't really be a thing anymore, since anyone can use it and it's mostly limited to the user's knowledge/resources. The only things you could steal would be Innate magics, which (presumably) would be fairly rare.

[MacThorstenson]

I kind of assumed we would be to a certain extent, at least with the metallic arts because they shouldn't be limited here. Also so that people who want to can jump right in with a few metallic arts powers.

I would also like to keep some of the themes of the DA present, like we are keeping the themes of the other guilds present.

The DA at its core are bakers, scientists, have hemalurgy, and have access to the alleys. The alleys one would be necessarily limited, but I would prefer to keep the other ones if possible.

12 minutes ago, kenod said:

Also, if we keep Ritual magic stealing stuff wouldn't really be a thing anymore, since anyone can use it and it's mostly limited to the user's knowledge/resources. The only things you could steal would be Innate magics, which (presumably) would be fairly rare.

That is true, but it would very well be possible steal the innate magic.

I thought the innate magic would be more widespread, but weaker with more limited functions?

 

EDIT: I think that at least grounding the magic system in cosmere mechanics would be a good idea, to try and keep familiarity. We can make the affects whatever we want, and I like kenods system for sorting the magic, but I would like to make sure that the base of the system is cosmere (like three realms, investiture is the thing that powers it).

Edited February 28, 2019 by MacThorstenson

[kenod]

3 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

That is true, but it would very well be possible steal the innate magic.

I thought the innate magic would be more widespread, but weaker with more limited functions?

Ah, right. I was thinking a similar amount as the number of mistings and ferrings on Scandrial, though possibly with a bit higher power levels. But yeah, Hemalurgy would be possible in this case. I'd personally prefer altering it a bit though, splitting the soul manipulation away from physical mutations, and putting them in separate systems. I was also thinking of doing the same with other magic systems, merging similar ones or splitting those with multiple, different usages.

[MacThorstenson]

2 minutes ago, kenod said:

Ah, right. I was thinking a similar amount as the number of mistings and ferrings on Scandrial, though possibly with a bit higher power levels. But yeah, Hemalurgy would be possible in this case. I'd personally prefer altering it a bit though, splitting the soul manipulation away from physical mutations, and putting them in separate systems. I was also thinking of doing the same with other magic systems, merging similar ones or splitting those with multiple, different usages.

Ok. Did you see the EDIT to my previous post? I have it quoted below in case you didn't.

 

9 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

EDIT: I think that at least grounding the magic system in cosmere mechanics would be a good idea, to try and keep familiarity. We can make the affects whatever we want, and I like kenods system for sorting the magic, but I would like to make sure that the base of the system is cosmere (like three realms, investiture is the thing that powers it).

 

[Steel Inquisitive]

I feel like hemalurgy makes things too easy..... You want a new power?just spike this person and you're done! I think we should have a variant form here though.... Or maybe they could just have very limited knowledge of hemalurgy.

4 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

I thought the innate magic would be more widespread, but weaker with more limited functions?

That's what I thought as well. How structured are we thinking the magic is going to be? Like allomancy with it being very rigid. Or more like each person has a unique ability?

[kenod]

2 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

Ok. Did you see the EDIT to my previous post? I have it quoted below in case you didn't.

 

 

Ah, no, I didn't. it seems like a good idea though, and most of my own suggestions were based around that as well (though the Ecology thing changed the mechanics a bit).

[MacThorstenson]

3 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

feel like hemalurgy makes things too easy..... You want a new power?just spike this person and you're done! I think we should have a variant form here though.... Or maybe they could just have very limited knowledge of hemalurgy.

Well, it doesnt actually make things easier.  I would need to find out what type of metal steals what ability and where on the body I would need to stab someone with that spike to get the powe across. 

Without extreme healing powers I would need to massacre thousands of people to discover the hind points, the only reason why The DA can do it in the main alleyverse is because we have spent millions of years mapping spirit webs, and have a god as our founder. 

[kenod]

1 minute ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I feel like hemalurgy makes things too easy..... You want a new power?just spike this person and you're done! I think we should have a variant form here though.... Or maybe they could just have very limited knowledge of hemalurgy.

Hemalurgy should probably be a type of Ritual magic here, which means it'd require a lot of preparation to use. Since it would probably be illegal as well (killing people and messing with souls sounds like a rather illegal thing) almost nobody would know about it either, or at least how to use it.

4 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

That's what I thought as well. How structured are we thinking the magic is going to be? Like allomancy with it being very rigid. Or more like each person has a unique ability?

A mix might work. Basically each power would be a more powerful, flexible version of a Ritual magic effect, with spells easier to perform being more common as powers. Since it'd probably work through the spiritual realm powers would probably also run in family lines, as well as arising through random mutations/magic influences.

[+ZincAboutIt]

16 minutes ago, kenod said:

Ah, right. I was thinking a similar amount as the number of mistings and ferrings on Scandrial, though possibly with a bit higher power levels. But yeah, Hemalurgy would be possible in this case. I'd personally prefer altering it a bit though, splitting the soul manipulation away from physical mutations, and putting them in separate systems.

I’m glad you mentioned this, I wrote like 4 paragraphs on something like this and then my inflight WiFi ran out and it never posted.  Anyway, I think splitting between the physical and non-physical effects could put more interesting limits on all the magic involved. Seen vs Unseen if you will. Two people being needed to perform complex rituals since only one person can work in each medium, either “on stage” or “back stage.” 

[Steel Inquisitive]

45 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

I’m glad you mentioned this, I wrote like 4 paragraphs on something like this and then my inflight WiFi ran out and it never posted.  

In flight WiFi is a joke 

46 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

 Anyway, I think splitting between the physical and non-physical effects could put more interesting limits on all the magic involved. Seen vs Unseen if you will. Two people being needed to perform complex rituals since only one person can work in each medium, either “on stage” or “back stage.” 

I like where this is heading! Could you give an example? Maybe a third type that connects "on stage" with "back stage" (I just like things that come in threes!)

Also would these rituals need the innate users or could it be used by anyone?

[xinoehp512]

1 hour ago, kenod said:

Hemalurgy should probably be a type of Ritual magic here, which means it'd require a lot of preparation to use. Since it would probably be illegal as well (killing people and messing with souls sounds like a rather illegal thing) almost nobody would know about it either, or at least how to use it.

A mix might work. Basically each power would be a more powerful, flexible version of a Ritual magic effect, with spells easier to perform being more common as powers. Since it'd probably work through the spiritual realm powers would probably also run in family lines, as well as arising through random mutations/magic influences.

I'm confused. I thought that there was going to be one Ritual system. If we are doing multiple, they should all be slight variations on the same basic magic source.

I think that we should take a step back from all forms of Cosmere magic, including Hemalurgy. We're using the base Cosmere system, but the actual magic should be as different from the Metallic Arts as the Metallic Arts are from, say, Surgebinding.

Perhaps the Innate magic could be channeling a formation of energy (such as a crystal) in a specific way. The Ritual magic would be utilizing that energy in a different way (and maybe a less powerful one), but one that could be used by anyone. 

[+Invocation]

So I hear y'all are looking for magic systems to fit this new world. I have a suggestion! I created this magic system recently and need a way to find kinks in it anyhow. It's sort of like a mix between Feruchemy, fabrials, and Nahel bonds, but at the same time, different from all of them because of the bodily integration.

The elemental powers can shape the world around you directly and indirectly, so there's a good way for the guilds to begin customizing their areas.

Spoiler

The Elemental Abilities: Storm, Air, Fire, Earth, and Water (storm is hard to access and control unless you’re really strong, as it incorporates some of all of the others)

The Physical Abilities: Strength, Speed, Memory, Speech, and Thought (strength is also fussy because it boosts your strength 1.5 times what it was before and that's disorienting)

Full arm replacements can have two, half arms can have one, legs can have one because replacing your upper legs goes badly.

Process of gaining adaptations:

1.       Spend time focusing, meditating even, on whether you think you can handle an(other) adaptation and what that should be

2.       Build the clockwork limb by hand for however long you take, being certain to leave room for the gems of the actual adaptation to nestle

3.       Go into the caves beneath the area in search of power to bond to the limb

4.       Find it or die

5.       If you die, end of story, you’re dead, left haunting the caverns for the rest of eternity.

6.       If you find it, you extend the clockwork towards the node of the power and wait for it to settle in and form the appropriate gem

7.       Bond the clockwork to your limb in the very painful process. Hope you’re strong enough to remain conscious or you could botch the process. That’s never good.

8.       Make your way out of the caves

9.       If you make it to this step, good job! You have earned the adaptation and can now begin to figure out how to use it.

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Invocation

[Steel Inquisitive]

22 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

I'm confused. I thought that there was going to be one Ritual system. If we are doing multiple, they should all be slight variations on the same basic magic source.

I think that we should take a step back from all forms of Cosmere magic, including Hemalurgy. We're using the base Cosmere system, but the actual magic should be as different from the Metallic Arts as the Metallic Arts are from, say, Surgebinding.

Perhaps the Innate magic could be channeling a formation of energy (such as a crystal) in a specific way. The Ritual magic would be utilizing that energy in a different way (and maybe a less powerful one), but one that could be used by anyone. 

I believe we're all talking one Ritual system that can produce many different affects. Same as surgebinding is one system and yet it includes things like illusions and gravity manipulation.

The thing that's going to tie everything together is going to be the fuel for the magic systems. I've heard crystals brought up, are there any other ideas? 

Edit: Missed your post @Invocation! I like it and it could work, but I would like to stay away from the elemental stuff....

Edited February 28, 2019 by Steel Inquisitive

[xinoehp512]

17 minutes ago, Invocation said:

So I hear y'all are looking for magic systems to fit this new world. I have a suggestion! I created this magic system recently and need a way to find kinks in it anyhow. It's sort of like a mix between Feruchemy, fabrials, and Nahel bonds, but at the same time, different from all of them because of the bodily integration.

The elemental powers can shape the world around you directly and indirectly, so there's a good way for the guilds to begin customizing their areas.

  Hide contents

The Elemental Abilities: Storm, Air, Fire, Earth, and Water (storm is hard to access and control unless you’re really strong, as it incorporates some of all of the others)

The Physical Abilities: Strength, Speed, Memory, Speech, and Thought (strength is also fussy because it boosts your strength 1.5 times what it was before and that's disorienting)

Full arm replacements can have two, half arms can have one, legs can have one because replacing your upper legs goes badly.

Process of gaining adaptations:

1.       Spend time focusing, meditating even, on whether you think you can handle an(other) adaptation and what that should be

2.       Build the clockwork limb by hand for however long you take, being certain to leave room for the gems of the actual adaptation to nestle

3.       Go into the caves beneath the area in search of power to bond to the limb

4.       Find it or die

5.       If you die, end of story, you’re dead, left haunting the caverns for the rest of eternity.

6.       If you find it, you extend the clockwork towards the node of the power and wait for it to settle in and form the appropriate gem

7.       Bond the clockwork to your limb in the very painful process. Hope you’re strong enough to remain conscious or you could botch the process. That’s never good.

8.       Make your way out of the caves

9.       If you make it to this step, good job! You have earned the adaptation and can now begin to figure out how to use it.

 

I think that the bodily modifications are kind of creepy... 

On a different subject: Could the magic system be tied to the world's mutability, or should we use something else?

[kenod]

9 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

I'm confused. I thought that there was going to be one Ritual system. If we are doing multiple, they should all be slight variations on the same basic magic source.

I think that we should take a step back from all forms of Cosmere magic, including Hemalurgy. We're using the base Cosmere system, but the actual magic should be as different from the Metallic Arts as the Metallic Arts are from, say, Surgebinding.

Perhaps the Innate magic could be channeling a formation of energy (such as a crystal) in a specific way. The Ritual magic would be utilizing that energy in a different way (and maybe a less powerful one), but one that could be used by anyone. 

Alright. I had the following concept for Ritual magic:
Basically, in this universe, symbols hold power, with specific arrays of symbols creating specific effects. These symbols need some sort of power though, basically condensed Investure, either mined or created using special machines/spells placed at certain energy hotspots. Each magic system would use different symbols, with different rules for how the symbols would interact with each other, essentially forming sub-variations similar to what you see on Sel.
Different from Sel though, is that what the symbols are inscribed on doesn't matter, and symbols can exist in the physical, cognitive and spiritual realms. This means that while most bigger rituals would be large magic circles (actual design differing based on system), it would be possible to create circles by visualizing them as well, using Investure embedded in the body as power source, or only visualizing the part of the circle that controls the variables, leaving the core part as a physical object (difficult, requires a lot of focus, getting your concentration broken can be bad. Mental discipline required needs years/decades of training to reach, and generally only works for a single spell, with only masters capable of improvising).
Symbols can also exist in the spiritual realm, which is what causes innate abilities. These symbols can come into existence through random chance (increased by a lot of interaction with magic, especially during birth), or by modifying your soul using rituals (dangerous, painful, damages the psyche, hard to get right, less powerful/flexible). To use these innate abilities a person has to ingest condensed Investure, or possibly use a Lift type thing where calories are converted into Investure.

The different collections of symbols is what forms the different branches of magic, most people studying only a single branch because of their complexity, and different branches being more prominent in certain regions, with people there knowing more about them. These branches would include:

• Necromancy: Basically a combination of Shades, Lifeless and Bloodsealing. Can either animate dead bodies as servants or conserve a dying person as a cognitive shadow, possibly binding the shadows to them. Might also be capable of retrieving information from deceased bodies, as long has they haven't been dead for too long. Probably illegal.
• Fleshcrafting: Magic manipulating living bodies. Mostly used as healing magic, but cosmetic usage is also possible, though rare. Finds illegal usage in people modifying the bodies of animals and humans without consent, creating new species and using them as servants. Requires a lot of biological knowledge next to the magical knowledge.
• Soulworking: Directly modifying the soul. Capable of granting someone innate magic, manipulating their powers and doing other weird stuff. Extremely illegal, dangerous and painful. Generally tends to have bad side-effects, especially regarding mental stability.
• Alchemy: Involves both transmutation as well as giving objects a magical nature, enchanting them. Enchanted objects have their spiritual aspect rewritten, changing their nature and granting them new powers.
• More general effects: More standard magic stuff, as well as things I haven't thought of. Includes elemental manipulation, teleportation, telepathy, bindings, all kinds of stuff.

[+Invocation]

1 minute ago, xinoehp512 said:

I think that the bodily modifications are kind of creepy... 

On a different subject: Could the magic system be tied to the world's mutability, or should we use something else?

The body mods are half the fun of the aesthetic, though.

[Steel Inquisitive]

4 minutes ago, kenod said:

The different collections of symbols is what forms the different branches of magic, most people studying only a single branch because of their complexity, and different branches being more prominent in certain regions, with people there knowing more about them. These branches would include:

• Necromancy: Basically a combination of Shades, Lifeless and Bloodsealing. Can either animate dead bodies as servants or conserve a dying person as a cognitive shadow, possibly binding the shadows to them. Might also be capable of retrieving information from deceased bodies, as long has they haven't been dead for too long. Probably illegal.
• Fleshcrafting: Magic manipulating living bodies. Mostly used as healing magic, but cosmetic usage is also possible, though rare. Finds illegal usage in people modifying the bodies of animals and humans without consent, creating new species and using them as servants. Requires a lot of biological knowledge next to the magical knowledge.
• Soulworking: Directly modifying the soul. Capable of granting someone innate magic, manipulating their powers and doing other weird stuff. Extremely illegal, dangerous and painful. Generally tends to have bad side-effects, especially regarding mental stability.
• Alchemy: Involves both transmutation as well as giving objects a magical nature, enchanting them. Enchanted objects have their spiritual aspect rewritten, changing their nature and granting them new powers.
• More general effects: More standard magic stuff, as well as things I haven't thought of. Includes elemental manipulation, teleportation, telepathy, bindings, all kinds of stuff.

I like this a lot! though it is very similar to Sel...... Maybe they could use dances instead of symbols? Different dances have different affects. Anyone can perform the dances they just have to be taught. It would still take a group of people as one person dancing wouldn't create enough energy. The Innate magic could be something as simple as people who are powerful enough to create affects on their own. Or the Innates are those that don't need the dances altogether.

We still need the fuel..... Maybe fireflies? Different colored fireflies would have different affects. They could be attracted by using flowers to lure them in and would need to be present for the dancing to work.... Or if we do symbols it could be ink made out of the bugs that make it so that the symbols do something. 

[Kidpen]

1 minute ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I like this a lot! though it is very similar to Sel...... Maybe they could use dances instead of symbols? Different dances have different affects. Anyone can perform the dances they just have to be taught. It would still take a group of people as one person dancing wouldn't create enough energy. The Innate magic could be something as simple as people who are powerful enough to create affects on their own. Or the Innates are those that don't need the dances altogether.

We still need the fuel..... Maybe fireflies? Different colored fireflies would have different affects. They could be attracted by using flowers to lure them in and would need to be present for the dancing to work.... Or if we do symbols it could be ink made out of the bugs that make it so that the symbols do something. 

I like the fireflies idea. You could have a thing where some societies view them as sacred, and maybe some magic subsystems that require the killing of the fireflies that is against them.

[kenod]

1 minute ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I like this a lot! though it is very similar to Sel...... Maybe they could use dances instead of symbols? Different dances have different affects. Anyone can perform the dances they just have to be taught. It would still take a group of people as one person dancing wouldn't create enough energy. The Innate magic could be something as simple as people who are powerful enough to create affects on their own. Or the Innates are those that don't need the dances altogether.

We still need the fuel..... Maybe fireflies? Different colored fireflies would have different affects. They could be attracted by using flowers to lure them in and would need to be present for the dancing to work.... Or if we do symbols it could be ink made out of the bugs that make it so that the symbols do something. 

That sounds interesting too, but doesn't really fit with the whole classical fantasy setting that well. It seems more like the type of thing you'd use in a per-historic/tribal setting. On the other hand, it might be possible for one branch of the magic system to use that, or the Ecology magic system might use it to create something similar to wild magic/witchcraft/druidry, using Investure based entities (spren/Shinto Kami) instead of the fireflies, with the dances attracting them and communicating with them.

[xinoehp512]

 

4 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I like this a lot! though it is very similar to Sel...... Maybe they could use dances instead of symbols? Different dances have different affects. Anyone can perform the dances they just have to be taught. It would still take a group of people as one person dancing wouldn't create enough energy. The Innate magic could be something as simple as people who are powerful enough to create affects on their own. Or the Innates are those that don't need the dances altogether.

We still need the fuel..... Maybe fireflies? Different colored fireflies would have different affects. They could be attracted by using flowers to lure them in and would need to be present for the dancing to work.... Or if we do symbols it could be ink made out of the bugs that make it so that the symbols do something. 

Dances are used on Sel (ChaySan). I like the idea of crystals forming in hotspots. Kind of like the pits of Hathsin, but all over the planet.

Ecology magic is the way the world changes to match the Spritual, right?

[Kidpen]

Just now, xinoehp512 said:

Ecology magic is the way the world changes to match the Spritual, right?

What do you mean? 

[kenod]

Just now, xinoehp512 said:

Ecology magic is the way the world changes to match the Spritual, right?

More that it has a general magical nature, probably in the form of magic hot spots, and manifests unusual effects, such as floating islands, spirit entities, bioluminescent mushroom forests, that kind of stuff. On the other hand, given that reality would be more pliable in these areas, since the investure means the realms are closer together, a lot of people living together in these areas would influence how the effect manifests, though probably to a lesser degree, and in a more spread-out region. In the same way, people who know what they're doing might be able to work together to try to get the area to create a specific effect, but can't be sure what they'll end up with, creating something like wild magic and nature magic, with this being more effective in nature areas, because there would be less sapient minds around influencing things.

That's my take on it at least.

[xinoehp512]

21 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

What would be kind of cool would be a wildly varying landscape based on what guild is most prevalent there.

For example, in nature, the DA’s land would be very rough terrain, mountains, boulders, as city like as possible, but still very chaotic. 

In cities, the DA areas could be darker and filled with alleys. 

We could do something like that for the other guilds. 

Edit: as an origin for the world, we could have a team of super powerful channelers and elantrians that tried to shape the world to make it, they all disappeared shortly thereafter, with the only thing remaining was a few cookie crumbs. 

 

18 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

The idea sounds like a great one, but I don't think hemalurgy really fits the idea. (TUBA is hardly going to be down for a hemalurgy based proposition anyways.) Maybe it could be an inherent function of the landscape, where the Physical aspect is tied to the Spritual.

 

18 hours ago, Voidus said:

There are non-Hemalurgic alternatives for linking Identity to a location. Some kind of gigantic inversely functioning Aon comes to mind, where the use of Aonic symbols alters the landscape instead of the other way around. Or the use of Forgery.

Anything from Sel is probably a safe bet.

Or heck, invent a new magic system, I think including Cosmere magic is a good idea to give it a grounding in the Alleyverse but nothing to say you can't make new stuff on top of that.

Just some personal thoughts, not sure if I'll have time to even play in this setting let alone worldbuild so feel free to ignore me.


EDIT: If you're going with the 'landscape as a reflection of population' thing then the way they go about altering the landscape could also be a really good visual. So DA lands are peppered with spikes dotting the ground to establish their identity over the vicinity, when they invade a new town a giant spike is set up and the corruption slowly spreads from it.
TUBA could set up underground bunkers that act as bakeries, the walls of which are peppered with Soulstamps or something, and then TUBA's influence rises up around them. So they tunnel underneath the earth and try to invade DA territory without them noticing.

 

14 hours ago, ZincAboutIt said:

I think tying identity to location via Aons/Hemalurgy/whatever else would allow for probably a greater level of specificity and diversity between regions, which is its own benefit. However, merging the CR and the PR more deeply across the board could lead to some very interesting things happening in areas that are not claimed by any particular guild or group. In an area where the land is being fought over, the landscape could be in a much greater state of unrest (earthquakes, sinkholes, etc). Portions of the world that are not yet explored could even sort of start dissolving without any kind of mental focus on them. The end of the map could be the actual end of the map, or you could get wells/holes in the world because no one is thinking of them. In these far-flung regions a small group of people could potentially have immense influence over their own landscape since their thoughts are the only thing affecting the reality around them. Could you pay/force a large enough group of people to think a thing into existence? This seems like the ideal setting for a cult leader to amass enough of a following to actually change reality as it suits him/her.

Just thoughts 

 

9 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

This is more or less what I was suggesting. I was going to extrapolate, but I was in a hurry.  I think the SR is better than the CR in terms of changing to reflect the thoughts of the inhabitants, but it would certainly have a harder time merging with the PR. Maybe all three realms could be tied more closely to one another, so that changes in one are reflected in the others.

 

 

[Steel Inquisitive]

25 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

Dances are used on Sel (ChaySan). 

I like the idea of crystals forming in hotspots. Kind of like the pits of Hathsin, but all over the planet.

I mean, yeah, but not to the degree that symbols are and ChaySan, as far as I'm aware, was only combat oriented.

Crystals could work..... I was hoping for something more nature based (hence fireflies). Are you thinking different types of crystals have different affects or are you thinking there would be one type that facilitates everything? 

[+Invocation]

1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Edit: Missed your post @Invocation! I like it and it could work, but I would like to stay away from the elemental stuff....

That's fair.