worldbuilding Fantasy World planning

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

Just now, MacThorstenson said:

Xin was saying something about it not making ritual magic have enough limits.

I personally would like to keep enchanting and alchemy under ritual magic, and it seems like other people would to.

But we should finalize that before we continue.

I feel like it fits best in Ritual.

Innate could still have something like what you suggested.... I just don't want Innate to be a weaker version of Ritual.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

1 minute ago, MacThorstenson said:

Yeah. But like I said above, keeping souldworking, enchanting and alchemy under ritual is my prefered course of action.

I agree that soulwork, enchanting and alchemy makes more sense for ritual, since by nature those actions are ritualistic.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

Yeah. The innate I suggest could be a way to blend them while allowing enchanting and soul working to function, as they'd be manipulating connections that already exist, just moving or changing them.

Their innate power could also grow stronger and change depending on that godhood bit you mentioned a while ago, and the danger could occur if you were to tap into a magic source and fuel your innate ability that way. 

[xinoehp512 he/him]

When I said a bridge, I literally meant a bridge. I was envisioning something that would be able to take Ritual magic and Natural magic and make them work together.

Yes, the spellcasting is somewhat Ritualistic. That's the point! That's what it's connection to Ritual magic is. The spells themselves would alter the world in a very Naturalistic way.

I think that we should not be saying that people are fabricating the spiritwebs of objects. That should be something that's really, really, really hard to do (like, no one knows how), similar to subatomic particle manipulation.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

1 minute ago, xinoehp512 said:

I think that we should not be saying that people are fabricating the spiritwebs of objects. That should be something that's really, really, really hard to do (like, no one knows how), similar to subatomic particle manipulation.

By fabricating, do you mean "creating from scratch" or "fiddling with"? Because I think mixing around a spiritweb is well within the limits of ritual magic (as it is now). Kind of like crossing phone lines and plugging them in so that people can change phone numbers or desks as they like (why yes I work in an office, how can you tell?). But true creation of a new spirit should only be under the powers of Natural magic imo, where group-belief does this organically and unpredictably (and no one knows exactly how it happens).

[xinoehp512 he/him]

The way Mac described it, enchanting was creating a spiritweb to be exactly the way you want it to be. I agree with you exactly on this point. To add another analogy, it should be like genetic modification. You can extract certain genes, and even know to an extent what they do, but you can't create new ones.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

2 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

The way Mac described it, enchanting was creating a spiritweb to be exactly the way you want it to be. I agree with you exactly on this point. To add another analogy, it should be like genetic modification. You can extract certain genes, and even know to an extent what they do, but you can't create new ones.

Hmm I think I may be about halfway between you and Mac on this one. I think he mentioned changing his age, things like that, which I think is totally fine. What I am talking about is effectively creating "new life" via ritual magic. Cobbling together an organic spirit. Kind of like a homunculus. Creating life/souls, artificially. I don't think that should be possible (or if it is, then this should effectively be the main problem in-universe: someone has created an artificial god). But I do think that messing with a spiritweb via enchantment should be possible - just really hard!. 

[Kidpen he/him]

2 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

Hmm I think I may be about halfway between you and Mac on this one. I think he mentioned changing his age, things like that, which I think is totally fine. What I am talking about is effectively creating "new life" via ritual magic. Cobbling together an organic spirit. Kind of like a homunculus. Creating life/souls, artificially. I don't think that should be possible (or if it is, then this should effectively be the main problem in-universe: someone has created an artificial god). But I do think that messing with a spiritweb via enchantment should be possible - just really hard!. 

I'm not planning to participate in this, but just throwing in my two cents: I think that creating a whole new spirit shouldn't be possible, but creating life from the spiritweb of a rock or something should be. Only thing is that living spiritwebs are far far more complicated then inanimate ones, and thus it would only be able to be done by incredibly complicated rituals. And creating life of human level intelligence would be even harder than that. 

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

1 minute ago, Kidpen said:

I'm not planning to participate in this, but just throwing in my two cents: I think that creating a whole new spirit shouldn't be possible, but creating life from the spiritweb of a rock or something should be. Only thing is that living spiritwebs are far far more complicated then inanimate ones, and thus it would only be able to be done by incredibly complicated rituals. And creating life of human level intelligence would be even harder than that. 

Ooh I like that!

[kenod]

5 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

The way Mac described it, enchanting was creating a spiritweb to be exactly the way you want it to be. I agree with you exactly on this point. To add another analogy, it should be like genetic modification. You can extract certain genes, and even know to an extent what they do, but you can't create new ones.

Um, genetic manipulation can do that I think, it's just that we can't predict protein forms yet, so we can't predict the effects new genes will have. That would be a good analogy though, you can theoretically create spiritwebs that are exactly the way you want them to be, but you won't know what it'll do, and it'll probably result in a failure that kills the subject in a horrible way, with worse things also being possible, so the only usable method is to copy parts of the spirit webs of other things instead.

As for how difficult it would be, creating a single modification from scratch would probably require you to kill half the world's population to figure it out. Getting a complete theory on how stuff works through trial and error would take killing everybody in the world above a certain age (after they get children) for about a few millennia to finish.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

18 minutes ago, kenod said:

As for how difficult it would be, creating a single modification from scratch would probably require you to kill half the world's population to figure it out. Getting a complete theory on how stuff works through trial and error would take killing everybody in the world above a certain age (after they get children) for about a few millennia to finish.

Thanks for the time perspective on that one! 

[xinoehp512 he/him]

Yes, exactly. That's why enchanting has to be an Innate thing.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

20 minutes ago, Kidpen said:

I'm not planning to participate in this, but just throwing in my two cents: I think that creating a whole new spirit shouldn't be possible, but creating life from the spiritweb of a rock or something should be. Only thing is that living spiritwebs are far far more complicated then inanimate ones, and thus it would only be able to be done by incredibly complicated rituals. And creating life of human level intelligence would be even harder than that. 

That's what I thought we had. The way we had it working (to my understanding) was that you could manipulate a spirit web's connections by "moving them around" (This is kinda vague) but not "create" a new spirit altogether. 

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

3 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

manipulate a spirit web's connections by "moving them around" (This is kinda vague)

I've always kind of imagined it as a cross between playing cat's-cradle and re-stringing a lute, except the strings aren't real, and you have to look with your soul-eyes.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

Just now, ZincAboutIt said:

I've always kind of imagined it as a cross between playing cat's-cradle and re-stringing a lute, except the strings aren't real, and you have to look with your soul-eyes.

We have similar imaginations 

I think we should establish some base restrictions. As I said in a previous post, I don't think any spirit tampering should effect the Physical Realm. I couldn't take a rock and change it's spirit to make it transform into a sword that burns people, but I could change the rock so if anyone touches it they will get burned. It would still be a rock. 

In practice, what are people picturing using enchantment for? I was thinking it would mostly be small, unimportant stuff.... Like spanreeds and heating fabrials. Useful but not world shattering. I guess weapons could be made but how powerful? I'm not really interested in nightblood like beings springing into existence. (With natural magic it's possible, but wouldn't be under anyone's control.)  

[xinoehp512 he/him]

1 minute ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I think we should establish some base restrictions. As I said in a previous post, I don't think any spirit tampering should effect the Physical Realm. I couldn't take a rock and change it's spirit to make it transform into a sword that burns people, but I could change the rock so if anyone touches it they will get burned. It would still be a rock. 

How could you do this? That's not something that spiritweb naturally does...

[kenod]

1 minute ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

We have similar imaginations 

I think we should establish some base restrictions. As I said in a previous post, I don't think any spirit tampering should effect the Physical Realm. I couldn't take a rock and change it's spirit to make it transform into a sword that burns people, but I could change the rock so if anyone touches it they will get burned. It would still be a rock. 

In practice, what are people picturing using enchantment for? I was thinking it would mostly be small, unimportant stuff.... Like spanreeds and heating fabrials. Useful but not world shattering. I guess weapons could be made but how powerful? I'm not really interested in nightblood like beings springing into existence. (With natural magic it's possible, but wouldn't be under anyone's control.)  

I actually see it as something more powerful, but much more difficult to use, since you're changing an object's nature. If you want tools with basic magical effects you could just inscribe the symbols on a tool and add fuel in the right slot.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

1 minute ago, xinoehp512 said:

How could you do this? That's not something that spiritweb naturally does...

Have you read Mistborn? Not really a spoiler.... In mistborn we see that heat is an spiritual function. That's why brass (F-heat) is in the spirit section of the chart. (I think brass=heat? Can never keep the metals straight.... just what they do!)

[kenod]

1 minute ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Have you read Mistborn? Not really a spoiler.... In mistborn we see that heat is an spiritual function. That's why brass (F-heat) is in the spirit section of the chart. (I think brass=heat? Can never keep the metals straight.... just what they do!)

It isn't, it's in the hybrid sector. Connection, Fortune, Investure and Identity are in the spiritual sector.

On the other hand, magic abilities are encoded in the spiritweb I believe, which is why hemalurgy can steal them.

Edited March 6, 2019 by kenod

[xinoehp512 he/him]

3 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Have you read Mistborn? Not really a spoiler.... In mistborn we see that heat is an spiritual function. That's why brass (F-heat) is in the spirit section of the chart. (I think brass=heat? Can never keep the metals straight.... just what they do!)

No, it gives the ability to store and release heat in brass. That's not the same thing.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

3 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I think brass=heat?

Yes it does, but @kenod is right.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

2 minutes ago, kenod said:

It isn't, it's in the hybrid sector. Connection, Fortune, Investure and Identity are in the spiritual sector.

*facepalm* Although in a last attempt to keep some dignity..... Brass is actually under cognitive....... I lose

All that aside..... What were you guys planning on using enchantment for?

[xinoehp512 he/him]

I envision enchantment as putting a spell into an object/location/person. This makes it so that the spell can be used more than once without having to re-create the spell.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

I am assuming you would need to "charge" this thing for it to work repeatedly? Also, putting the spell on the person - via a tattoo I assume? A brand? Carving it into their skin? (Not opposed to any of these things just curious)

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

Just now, xinoehp512 said:

I envision enchantment as putting a spell into an object/location/person. This makes it so that the spell can be used more than once without having to re-create the spell.

OK. but what would it do? We keep talking about this but maybe we all have different ideas as to what we could do with enchantments.... I thought making something burn people on contact would be super simple but you obviously don't think it would be possible at all..... so, what can enchantments do?