worldbuilding Fantasy World planning

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

7 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

I think you misunderstand what I mean. I was suggesting that enchanting would be taking Innate spells that had been placed on objects and moving them to a different object. They could be broken down, but only so much. The point was not to steal from the Innate's soul.

I'm a little confused by this. Up to this point we've been saying that Innates would be able to replicate ritual magic without all the prep work. (At least as far as I know.) How are you picturing them working?

[MacThorstenson he/him]

9 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

I think you misunderstand what I mean. I was suggesting that enchanting would be taking Innate spells that had been placed on objects and moving them to a different object. They could be broken down, but only so much. The point was not to steal from the Innate's soul.

Ok I was misunderstanding what you were saying. I'm not exactly sure what the innate magic is though? Maybe the innates are people who have the ability to enchant objects?

Before we settle on this we need to iron out what innate magic is.

[xinoehp512 he/him]

I think that Innate magic should be some form of spellcasting, which would include enchanting objects. It would use the magic in a Natural way, yet have similar restrictions to Rituals.

[+Sorana she/her]

I have to admit I didn't really follow this thread, but would it be possible to use an already existing character?

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

Just throwing out an idea for Innate magic here: perhaps Innate mages can naturally transform one thing into another thing. They can use the ritual transformation process naturally on one setting. Each Innate is born with the ability to enchant one thing into being one other thing. Some Innates have a power that seems rather useless: turning milk into sand, for example. However, some Innates have powers that are immensely useful. Turning rock into vapor (mining), turning wood into salt (food preservation), turning clay into water. The one-to-one ratio might keep them from being too powerful, but would also make them powerful and useful enough to drive plot. The "spell" could also potentially be moved from one thing to another thing by ritual mages, if that's how we want to work it out. @xinoehp512 @MacThorstenson

[kenod]

6 hours ago, Sorana said:

I have to admit I didn't really follow this thread, but would it be possible to use an already existing character?

Probably, but keep in mind most characters wouldn't be able to use their powers in this setting.

That is a good point though, how will we handle characters moving in from other settings? Allowing them to keep their powers could result in some serious weirdness, especially when interacting with native characters. They'll also have much better scientific knowledge (I think), which means that they could probably become really powerful if they mix it with the local magics, even if it is just general influence by introducing stuff like improved farming techniques and industrialization.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

10 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

I think that Innate magic should be some form of spellcasting, which would include enchanting objects. It would use the magic in a Natural way, yet have similar restrictions to Rituals.

I could support this. 

If Innate magic is verbal though, I would prefer it if ritual magic was not verbal in any way. Like if you internalized the symbols, you didn't have to say anything, you just had to concentrate on the symbols during the process.

I would personally like it if instead of innate magic being a blending of natural and ritual, it was a third thing. It would be internal and while it would be limiting in scope, it would be able to do things that the other magics couldn't do.

[xinoehp512 he/him]

5 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

If Innate magic is verbal though, I would prefer it if ritual magic was not verbal in any way. Like if you internalized the symbols, you didn't have to say anything, you just had to concentrate on the symbols during the process.

That's what I thought it would be anyways.

5 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

I would personally like it if instead of innate magic being a blending of natural and ritual, it was a third thing. It would be internal and while it would be limiting in scope, it would be able to do things that the other magics couldn't do.

When I was thinking of a blend of Ritual and Natural, I was thinking of having them share similarities with the magic systems and being able to work with the magic systems, but being a third system. A sort of "bridge", if you will, between the freedom of the Natural and the order of the Ritual.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

Just now, xinoehp512 said:

That's what I thought it would be anyways.

I know, but some people were suggesting that we have the symbols connected to phrases.

1 minute ago, xinoehp512 said:

When I was thinking of a blend of Ritual and Natural, I was thinking of having them share similarities with the magic systems and being able to work with the magic systems, but being a third system. A sort of "bridge", if you will, between the freedom of the Natural and the order of the Ritual.

Ok, but not a literal blending of magic.

Like how feruchemy is a mix of preservation and ruins power, so it could be considered a bridge between allomancy and hemalurgy, but is still its own system?

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

Natural is based on perception, ritual is based on manipulation, perhaps innate is based on personal identity? Manipulating the world through personal perception? It latched onto something important to a person and then lets them change the world through that? For example, someone almost drowned once, so it latches on to water, then they can notice they have an affect on water, so their first belief of what they ate doing hardens the magic and that's how it stays? They believe they can breath underwater, they can. They believe they can fly, they can. Small, simple, single things like that?

Edited March 6, 2019 by ShadowLord_Lith

[xinoehp512 he/him]

We were saying it was going to be more spell based.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

2 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

We were saying it was going to be more spell based.

What I thought we were talking was that they would be able to mimic Ritual without the spells.......

@ShadowLord_Lith I like that idea! It might be too hard to differentiate it from the Natural magic though. Once we decide on a fuel we could make it that they would still need fuel while true Natural magic wouldn't.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

I understand, it was just a thought I had. It led to another that everyone has innate magic, but most only have a little power, so it manifests as something small- like being connected to fire makes you resistant to burns and heat. Being connected to water means you swim really well or can hold your breath for a long time. You could then have access to a much larger pool of things to transfer into objects- transfer enough innates into one enchanted object and it gains a stronger innate that is different from whatever it had originally- enough resistance to fire and it grants fire immunity. Etc...

[xinoehp512 he/him]

Ritual magic is writing stuff down. Innate would be speaking spells aloud.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

15 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

Ritual magic is writing stuff down. Innate would be speaking spells aloud.

I know that. I just... you also said that innate was meant to bridge that gap between the two- so it should have aspects of both without being either. If it's simply ritual but with words, that seems a bit weak of a bridge. More like an advanced version of ritual. If natural is based on perception, how does innate interact with that at all?

Edited March 6, 2019 by ShadowLord_Lith

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

15 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

Ritual magic is writing stuff down. Innate would be speaking spells aloud.

Which is just one idea that hasn't been approved yet. Personally I think "speaking spells" to be rather unoriginal...... 

Ritual is already a spell based system..... Let's do something else with Innate. Natural is super loose so what @ShadowLord_Lith is suggesting would be a much better "bridge" system.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

I suggested something similar-ish a few days back, but I also like @ShadowLord_Lith's suggestion. Here's mine again for relevance:

Each Innate is born with the ability to enchant one thing into being one other thing. Some Innates have a power that seems rather useless: turning milk into sand, for example. However, some Innates have powers that are immensely useful. Turning rock into vapor (mining), turning wood into salt (food preservation), turning clay into water. The one-to-one ratio might keep them from being too powerful, but would also make them powerful and useful enough to drive plot. The "spell" could also potentially be moved from one thing to another thing by ritual mages, if that's how we want to work it out.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

3 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

I suggested something similar-ish a few days back, but I also like @ShadowLord_Lith's suggestion. Here's mine again for relevance:

Each Innate is born with the ability to enchant one thing into being one other thing. Some Innates have a power that seems rather useless: turning milk into sand, for example. However, some Innates have powers that are immensely useful. Turning rock into vapor (mining), turning wood into salt (food preservation), turning clay into water. The one-to-one ratio might keep them from being too powerful, but would also make them powerful and useful enough to drive plot. The "spell" could also potentially be moved from one thing to another thing by ritual mages, if that's how we want to work it out.

I like that too! Both options seem more interesting to me.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

Innate could even have two or more ways it expresses itself. Be more varied than either. 

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

So..... What we have.... (Tell me what I get wrong.)

There are three main branches of magic. 

1. Ritual. This one allows anyone with enough knowledge to make changes to the world around them through symbols that are written. This is the most restrictive of the three. People can only make changes within the same realm. What I mean by that, is that you can move physical atoms around the Physical Realm to form new molecules and move connections around the Spirit Realm to form new connections. You can not cross between the realms. You couldn't change an objects cognitive aspect to affect it's physical one, but you could move the atoms of the object around to change it in the Physical Realm.
2. Innate. (Much debate....) People are born with an ability.
3. Natural. This one requires many people to have an noticeable affect. Natural magic is a result of the increased entanglement of the Cognitive Realm and the Physical Realm. It allows people to change the world around them through "group think". When enough people believe something, the world will change to match their beliefs. This allows for horrid monsters, nasty spirits and the occasional god to form. There are few/no restrictions on this system as there are few/no restrictions on the human imagination.  

[MacThorstenson he/him]

17 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

So..... What we have.... (Tell me what I get wrong.)

There are three main branches of magic. 

1. Ritual. This one allows anyone with enough knowledge to make changes to the world around them through symbols that are written. This is the most restrictive of the three. People can only make changes within the same realm. What I mean by that, is that you can move physical atoms around the Physical Realm to form new molecules and move connections around the Spirit Realm to form new connections. You can not cross between the realms. You couldn't change an objects cognitive aspect to affect it's physical one, but you could move the atoms of the object around to change it in the Physical Realm.
2. Innate. (Much debate....) People are born with an ability.
3. Natural. This one requires many people to have an noticeable affect. Natural magic is a result of the increased entanglement of the Cognitive Realm and the Physical Realm. It allows people to change the world around them through "group think". When enough people believe something, the world will change to match their beliefs. This allows for horrid monsters, nasty spirits and the occasional god to form. There are few/no restrictions on this system as there are few/no restrictions on the human imagination.  

That is what we have.

Here's another suggestion for innate magic. This one ties into the enchanting aspect that is no longer a part of ritual magic.

Each innate magic user has a focus, something that they are connected to. They can affect the spiritual aspect of objects in relation to that focus. The closer it is to that focus, the easier it is.

So If my focus was fire, I could turn a candle into a flaming candle without very few issues. Making it a flaming candle that isn't consumed would be more difficult, and making it a candle that lit of fire after a spoken command would be even more difficult. Making the candle wet would be impossible.

The more difficult the command, the more energy I would use trying to do it.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

2 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

That is what we have.

Here's another suggestion for innate magic. This one ties into the enchanting aspect that is no longer a part of ritual magic.

Each innate magic user has a focus, something that they are connected to. They can affect the spiritual aspect of objects in relation to that focus. The closer it is to that focus, the easier it is.

So If my focus was fire, I could turn a candle into a flaming candle without very few issues. Making it a flaming candle that isn't consumed would be more difficult, and making it a candle that lit of fire after a spoken command would be even more difficult. Making the candle wet would be impossible.

The more difficult the command, the more energy I would use trying to do it.

^I was under the assumption that 'enchanting' was still a possible aspect of ritual, but if not then this is my idea in a way that makes more sense. Thank you. 

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

2 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

This one ties into the enchanting aspect that is no longer a part of ritual magic.

I thought we had agreed enchanting was part of Ritual. That you were moving connections around to create enchantments.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

5 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

That is what we have.

Here's another suggestion for innate magic. This one ties into the enchanting aspect that is no longer a part of ritual magic.

Each innate magic user has a focus, something that they are connected to. They can affect the spiritual aspect of objects in relation to that focus. The closer it is to that focus, the easier it is.

So If my focus was fire, I could turn a candle into a flaming candle without very few issues. Making it a flaming candle that isn't consumed would be more difficult, and making it a candle that lit of fire after a spoken command would be even more difficult. Making the candle wet would be impossible.

The more difficult the command, the more energy I would use trying to do it.

I like this! If we are moving enchanting out of ritual, then this makes perfect sense to me. Not entirely sure what you mean by "flaming candle that isn't consumed." Do you mean an ever-burning candle, effectively?

[MacThorstenson he/him]

Xin was saying something about it not making ritual magic have enough limits.

I personally would like to keep enchanting and alchemy under ritual magic, and it seems like other people would to.

But we should finalize that before we continue.

Just now, ZincAboutIt said:

I like this! If we are moving enchanting out of ritual, then this makes perfect sense to me. Not entirely sure what you mean by "flaming candle that isn't consumed." Do you mean an ever-burning candle, effectively?

Yeah. But like I said above, keeping souldworking, enchanting and alchemy under ritual is my prefered course of action.

Edited March 6, 2019 by MacThorstenson