worldbuilding Fantasy World planning

[xinoehp512 he/him]

2 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

While that would work for defining the areas, the spikes themselves would be singular spikes in a specific place.

I would imagine instead of a spike stealing the guilds identity, and attaching it to an aspect of nature, it would just link the guilds identity and the aspect of nature, making it fluid and changeable. 

The idea sounds like a great one, but I don't think hemalurgy really fits the idea. (TUBA is hardly going to be down for a hemalurgy based proposition anyways.) Maybe it could be an inherent function of the landscape, where the Physical aspect is tied to the Spritual.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I agree wiht both of that. I am really to busy to get involved in any series world building, but I will interject if something is suggested I don't like. I'll be more free by sunday.

[Voidus]

There are non-Hemalurgic alternatives for linking Identity to a location. Some kind of gigantic inversely functioning Aon comes to mind, where the use of Aonic symbols alters the landscape instead of the other way around. Or the use of Forgery.

Anything from Sel is probably a safe bet.

Or heck, invent a new magic system, I think including Cosmere magic is a good idea to give it a grounding in the Alleyverse but nothing to say you can't make new stuff on top of that.

Just some personal thoughts, not sure if I'll have time to even play in this setting let alone worldbuild so feel free to ignore me.


EDIT: If you're going with the 'landscape as a reflection of population' thing then the way they go about altering the landscape could also be a really good visual. So DA lands are peppered with spikes dotting the ground to establish their identity over the vicinity, when they invade a new town a giant spike is set up and the corruption slowly spreads from it.
TUBA could set up underground bunkers that act as bakeries, the walls of which are peppered with Soulstamps or something, and then TUBA's influence rises up around them. So they tunnel underneath the earth and try to invade DA territory without them noticing.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

10 minutes ago, Voidus said:

There are non-Hemalurgic alternatives for linking Identity to a location. Some kind of gigantic inversely functioning Aon comes to mind, where the use of Aonic symbols alters the landscape instead of the other way around. Or the use of Forgery.

Of course there are, but hemalurgy is the best at it.

I think that for simplicity, trying to have most of the worldbuilding explained by sanderson magic is a good idea, with the fluff stuff being non sanderson, this allows people to become more integrated relatively easily.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

3 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

Of course there are, but hemalurgy is the best at it.

I think that for simplicity, trying to have most of the worldbuilding explained by sanderson magic is a good idea, with the fluff stuff being non sanderson, this allows people to become more integrated relatively easily.

I agree.

The CR changes depending on the people's thoughts in a given area, so maybe we could just say that the PR and CR are merged to a greater degree. This would make the landscape in a constant state of flux while also making it more of a passive influence. (Harder for guilds to fake if they don't have complete control!)

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

I think tying identity to location via Aons/Hemalurgy/whatever else would allow for probably a greater level of specificity and diversity between regions, which is its own benefit. However, merging the CR and the PR more deeply across the board could lead to some very interesting things happening in areas that are not claimed by any particular guild or group. In an area where the land is being fought over, the landscape could be in a much greater state of unrest (earthquakes, sinkholes, etc). Portions of the world that are not yet explored could even sort of start dissolving without any kind of mental focus on them. The end of the map could be the actual end of the map, or you could get wells/holes in the world because no one is thinking of them. In these far-flung regions a small group of people could potentially have immense influence over their own landscape since their thoughts are the only thing affecting the reality around them. Could you pay/force a large enough group of people to think a thing into existence? This seems like the ideal setting for a cult leader to amass enough of a following to actually change reality as it suits him/her.

Just thoughts 

[kenod]

9 hours ago, ZincAboutIt said:

Hi I'm 100% here for all three of these things, anyone who needs help writing whatever this ends up being, I want in. When you say "flesh sorcery" I'm guessing you're including old-school sympathetic magic, hoodoo, wax poppets, mind/body-control via blood, that sort of thing?

More like the way Hemalurgy is capable of creating new species.
Basically, it would be warping the bodies (and possibly souls) of those affected by it, creating new species/monstrosities, but would also be capable of just changing a person's appearance, or healing them. Healing magic would be one form of this (probably the only legal one as well, except maybe cosmetic stuff).
Of course, something like this being added depends on what the general opinion is on modifying the default magic systems, instead of just transplanting them.

On an unrelated note, we'd probably also need to look into ecology, especially if we want to add Rosharan magics. Most Rosharan magic is rather intimately entwined with the ecology, and said ecology doesn't really work in a classical fantasy setting. At the same time, the requirement for gemstones for magic would make it something that ranges from ridiculously expensive to unusable, given that the size and number of gemstones used by Roshar are unfeasible for a world without greatshells or large scale industrial mining (and would probably effect the economy a lot as well).

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

5 minutes ago, kenod said:

More like the way Hemalurgy is capable of creating new species.
Basically, it would be warping the bodies (and possibly souls) of those affected by it, creating new species/monstrosities, but would also be capable of just changing a person's appearance, or healing them. Healing magic would be one form of this (probably the only legal one as well, except maybe cosmetic stuff).
Of course, something like this being added depends on what the general opinion is on modifying the default magic systems, instead of just transplanting them.

Thanks for explaining! This makes sense   I also agree with you about Rosharan magic and the availability of gemstones.

[kenod]

20 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

Thanks for explaining! This makes sense   I also agree with you about Rosharan magic and the availability of gemstones.

I do have an idea floating around for this, to explain spren, but I'm still trying to work out a few details. They way it currently works it would also allow for the creation of weird magical areas and our Investure sources, as well as possibly certain other fantasy tropes.

[xinoehp512 he/him]

5 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I agree.

The CR changes depending on the people's thoughts in a given area, so maybe we could just say that the PR and CR are merged to a greater degree. This would make the landscape in a constant state of flux while also making it more of a passive influence. (Harder for guilds to fake if they don't have complete control!)

This is more or less what I was suggesting. I was going to extrapolate, but I was in a hurry.  I think the SR is better than the CR in terms of changing to reflect the thoughts of the inhabitants, but it would certainly have a harder time merging with the PR. Maybe all three realms could be tied more closely to one another, so that changes in one are reflected in the others.

 

[kenod]

10 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

This is more or less what I was suggesting. I was going to extrapolate, but I was in a hurry.  I think the SR is better than the CR in terms of changing to reflect the thoughts of the inhabitants, but it would certainly have a harder time merging with the PR. Maybe all three realms could be tied more closely to one another, so that changes in one are reflected in the others.

 

Are we sure we actually want to use the idea of the three realms for this? It implies that we'll either be copying the Cosmere magic systems, or at least that we won't have a lot of deviation from them, which limits what we can do with the setting.

[xinoehp512 he/him]

1 hour ago, kenod said:

Are we sure we actually want to use the idea of the three realms for this? It implies that we'll either be copying the Cosmere magic systems, or at least that we won't have a lot of deviation from them, which limits what we can do with the setting.

The thing about most Cosmere magic systems is that they're very tied to the planet. Surgebinding needs the highstorms, Elantrians and Forgers need the Dor, Sand Mastery needs the Invested Sunlight and the sand. The Alleyplanet gets around a lot of these restrictions, forming a place where the different magic systems can intermingle, but we don't really need another. So I agree that we shouldn't copy the magic systems of the Cosmere that exist; I am suggesting is creating a new magic system that's based on Cosmere principles (Investiture, Realms, etc) that has minimal or no reliance on the others.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

48 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

The thing about most Cosmere magic systems is that they're very tied to the planet. Surgebinding needs the highstorms, Elantrians and Forgers need the Dor, Sand Mastery needs the Invested Sunlight and the sand. The Alleyplanet gets around a lot of these restrictions, forming a place where the different magic systems can intermingle, but we don't really need another. So I agree that we shouldn't copy the magic systems of the Cosmere that exist; I am suggesting is creating a new magic system that's based on Cosmere principles (Investiture, Realms, etc) that has minimal or no reliance on the others.

I like that idea. 

One thing that could be interesting would be having the cosmere magic users be revered as like hero’s or heralds. 

Because the normal cosmere Magic’s dont really work well with out their fuel, the only one that would work would be the metallic arts, cosmere magic users would be rare. Like maybe 1 or 2 out of a hundred. 

The native magic system could make up another 8-9 out of a hundred people. 

Also what are we thinking for this new magic system? 

We could have something where the different guilds each have access to one acpect of it, one branch of the magic. 

Ark, as much as I love the keepers, I don’t think that they would get special poweres in this place. Their group identity is that they are terris. They are feruchemists. They would probably permanently remember themselves as a separate people from a different universe. In addition, their magic system is one of three that works in this scenario. 

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

Are we planning on sticking with the Cosmere prohibition on telling the future? If not then that could open up a larger slate of magic options that focus at least partially on telling the future/interpreting the present, with plenty of branches to work with.

[kenod]

34 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

I like that idea. 

One thing that could be interesting would be having the cosmere magic users be revered as like hero’s or heralds. 

Because the normal cosmere Magic’s dont really work well with out their fuel, the only one that would work would be the metallic arts, cosmere magic users would be rare. Like maybe 1 or 2 out of a hundred. 

The native magic system could make up another 8-9 out of a hundred people. 

Also what are we thinking for this new magic system? 

We could have something where the different guilds each have access to one acpect of it, one branch of the magic. 

I'd suggest three different magic systems, or at least three different groups: Innate, Ecology and Ritual.

Innate would be something only a few people possess and would be capable of fewer effects, but is easy to access if you have it and more of a combat type magic (think metallic arts). Getting access to this would probably be a birth thing, or something that requires special training?

Ecology would consist of two different parts, areas in the world with large concentrations of magic, which effects the area, manifesting special effects and creatures, as well as things similar to spren (though probably closer to Shinto Kami). The second part are people who have figured out ways to use these hotspots to use magic by working together with these entities. This would be more of a witchcraft/druid style system, both communicating with spirits to alter nature, as well as binding them as familiars to be able to use a limited amount of magic much faster, to the same degree as Innate users. Might have a degree of wild magic going on as well.

Ritual magic would be accessible to anyone, but might require special resources (solid/liquid Investure?) and a lot of study to be able to use it, and even more to create your own techniques/spells, or create ways to access it more quickly. This would have the most options, with different branches of magic (some of them possibly illegal), but most people don't have the time and resources to study it. Something Sellish might be good for this, with symbols and large diagrams/magic circles being used to cast magic. Would probably have hacks to allow experienced users to cast magic quickly, but with lower flexibility than those using the other groups of magic.

50 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

Ark, as much as I love the keepers, I don’t think that they would get special poweres in this place. Their group identity is that they are terris. They are feruchemists. They would probably permanently remember themselves as a separate people from a different universe. In addition, their magic system is one of three that works in this scenario. 

Metallic arts would still have issues, Allomancy suffers from being in another universe, thus lacking a source of Connection with Preservation/Harmony (unless this works across universes?). Feruchemy should work, but still suffers from the fact that you'll lack easy access to 6 of your metals, and lack of advanced metallurgy would make getting alloys difficult as well.

20 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

Are we planning on sticking with the Cosmere prohibition on telling the future? If not then that could open up a larger slate of magic options that focus at least partially on telling the future/interpreting the present, with plenty of branches to work with.

There isn't really a cosmere prohibition on this, the only limit the cosmere has is that you're never sure if the predictions will come true, since you're just seeing different branches of the future. The prohibition on future sight is because of meta reasons, since with everybody controlling the story to some degree you can't really predict the future, not without locking everyone in a story they might not want, or railroading stuff.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

1 minute ago, kenod said:

There isn't really a cosmere prohibition on this, the only limit the cosmere has is that you're never sure if the predictions will come true, since you're just seeing different branches of the future. The prohibition on future sight is because of meta reasons, since with everybody controlling the story to some degree you can't really predict the future, not without locking everyone in a story they might not want, or railroading stuff.

Lol you make a good point with this one. I generally play god and write all my story myself so thanks for pointing this out! Worldbuilding for multiple people is still new to me.

[+Ark1002]

19 hours ago, kenod said:

TUBA: Official mages guild. Not allowed to use certain restricted magics the DA is known for, would probably have more numbers though (npcs), would probably look more into things like Aons and Fabrials.

Keepers would be better mages

[kenod]

Just now, Arky-boi said:

Keepers would be better mages

To me the Keepers seem better as the wise hermit/druid/monk types.

[+Ark1002]

Just now, kenod said:

To me the Keepers seem better as the wise hermit/druid/monk types.

Druid is probably the best description of us.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

1 hour ago, ZincAboutIt said:

Lol you make a good point with this one. I generally play god and write all my story myself so thanks for pointing this out! Worldbuilding for multiple people is still new to me.

I'm having the same problem! 

We could still have prophecy. We could have a Nightwatcher-like spren, but instead of giving boon/curses it would give prophecies. This way it wouldn't be under any one person's control. I'm picturing it working something like this: a person visits the Seer and gets his prophecy. Community reads exchange and approves/disapproves.

If we do go with the changing landscape we could have a species to match! They would be a people that would change depending on environment. For example: one of them has been living with a caucasian family. They decide to move and are now living with an Asian family. Over the course of a couple years his features would change so that it looked like he was born and raised in the asian family. If one of these people lived alone in the mountains their skin would start resembling stone. They would have no control over their ability and would be viewed with distrust by the general populace.

(I wrote this on mobile so forgive any typos)

[xinoehp512 he/him]

1 hour ago, kenod said:

Metallic arts would still have issues, Allomancy suffers from being in another universe, thus lacking a source of Connection with Preservation/Harmony (unless this works across universes?). Feruchemy should work, but still suffers from the fact that you'll lack easy access to 6 of your metals, and lack of advanced metallurgy would make getting alloys difficult as well.

I think that Metallic Arts, Aviar, fabrials, etc. should still work even in another universe. The Alleyverse is sort of its own universe, and stuff works there.

1 hour ago, kenod said:

Ecology would consist of two different parts, areas in the world with large concentrations of magic, which effects the area, manifesting special effects and creatures, as well as things similar to spren (though probably closer to Shinto Kami). The second part are people who have figured out ways to use these hotspots to use magic by working together with these entities. This would be more of a witchcraft/druid style system, both communicating with spirits to alter nature, as well as binding them as familiars to be able to use a limited amount of magic much faster, to the same degree as Innate users. Might have a degree of wild magic going on as well.

I don't think that we should do the nature spirit/human combo thing, as that's very similar to how Surgebinding works. I think that the ecology aspect would just be how the landscape is shaped by the thoughts and beliefs. Each person would probably not be able to do anything by themselves, but groups of people could have effects that could be both automatic and controlled.

1 hour ago, kenod said:

Ritual magic would be accessible to anyone, but might require special resources (solid/liquid Investure?) and a lot of study to be able to use it, and even more to create your own techniques/spells, or create ways to access it more quickly. This would have the most options, with different branches of magic (some of them possibly illegal), but most people don't have the time and resources to study it. Something Sellish might be good for this, with symbols and large diagrams/magic circles being used to cast magic. Would probably have hacks to allow experienced users to cast magic quickly, but with lower flexibility than those using the other groups of magic.

I like this idea. I would imagine this sort of magic would be more science-y like the Selish magics, too, and would be able to have technology based off it. What if we had crystals made of Investiture that could be dug up and used for power?

[kenod]

2 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

I like this idea. I would imagine this sort of magic would be more science-y like the Selish magics, too, and would be able to have technology based off it. What if we had crystals made of Investiture that could be dug up and used for power?

I had basically the same idea for this, although using special setups to distill magic energy from leylines instead. I dislike the idea of magitek though, at least in large or advanced quantities, since it would mean that the setting probably won't stay as classic fantasy for long, and it tends to have rather large implications on societies. Limited amounts of it could work though, as long as they're rare enough that the normal population wouldn't have access to it.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

2 hours ago, kenod said:

I'd suggest three different magic systems, or at least three different groups: Innate, Ecology and Ritual.

Innate would be something only a few people possess and would be capable of fewer effects, but is easy to access if you have it and more of a combat type magic (think metallic arts). Getting access to this would probably be a birth thing, or something that requires special training?

Ecology would consist of two different parts, areas in the world with large concentrations of magic, which effects the area, manifesting special effects and creatures, as well as things similar to spren (though probably closer to Shinto Kami). The second part are people who have figured out ways to use these hotspots to use magic by working together with these entities. This would be more of a witchcraft/druid style system, both communicating with spirits to alter nature, as well as binding them as familiars to be able to use a limited amount of magic much faster, to the same degree as Innate users. Might have a degree of wild magic going on as well.

Ritual magic would be accessible to anyone, but might require special resources (solid/liquid Investure?) and a lot of study to be able to use it, and even more to create your own techniques/spells, or create ways to access it more quickly. This would have the most options, with different branches of magic (some of them possibly illegal), but most people don't have the time and resources to study it. Something Sellish might be good for this, with symbols and large diagrams/magic circles being used to cast magic. Would probably have hacks to allow experienced users to cast magic quickly, but with lower flexibility than those using the other groups of magic.

Metallic arts would still have issues, Allomancy suffers from being in another universe, thus lacking a source of Connection with Preservation/Harmony (unless this works across universes?). Feruchemy should work, but still suffers from the fact that you'll lack easy access to 6 of your metals, and lack of advanced metallurgy would make getting alloys difficult as well.

OK. Here's an idea that I had using your framework.

I want to try and have identity be a big factor in this world, so most of my ideas will focus around that.

Each of the guilds has access to different manifestations of innate, ecology, and ritual magic. The DA's could deal with space/time/matter manipulation, the ghostbloods with something helping them with assassination, and something else for tuba and the keepers and the other guilds.

The big thing would be that in world, people don't know everything about the magic systems.

The in world scholars say that allomancy and feruchemy are examples of innate magic that anyone can access regardless of identity. The other versions of innate magic are based off of which group you are a part of. If your identity is a mix between two groups, you don't get access to either magics.

This would be true of whatever level, innate, ecology, and ritual, you used. If you didn't have a clear identity, you couldn't access the magics.

EDIT: One idea I had would be that the craftsmen or a similar guild (maybe keepers?) would have the power to imbune objects with energy directly, as opposed to having to find them naturally. This would then be used for the ritual magic.

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by MacThorstenson

[kenod]

1 minute ago, MacThorstenson said:

OK. Here's an idea that I had using your framework.

I want to try and have identity be a big factor in this world, so most of my ideas will focus around that.

Each of the guilds has access to different manifestations of innate, ecology, and ritual magic. The DA's could deal with space/time/matter manipulation, the ghostbloods with something helping them with assassination, and something else for tuba and the keepers and the other guilds.

The big thing would be that in world, people don't know everything about the magic systems.

The in world scholars say that allomancy and feruchemy are examples of innate magic that anyone can access regardless of identity. The other versions of innate magic are based off of which group you are a part of. If your identity is a mix between two groups, you don't get access to either magics.

This would be true of whatever level, innate, ecology, and ritual, you used. If you didn't have a clear identity, you couldn't access the magics.

 

Sounds good, though I'd prefer also having a set of magics that people who aren't part of the guilds can access. The guilds would get access to their own specialized forms of magic, but anyone in the world, no matter their guild, can access the base versions. This would help with independent characters, or for the npcs.

P.S.
For the DA, I'd suggest magics dealing with manipulating bodies, or more darker ones (though those might just be base systems anyone can use, but the DA is more experienced/has less moral issues with them).

[MacThorstenson he/him]

Just now, kenod said:

For the DA, I'd suggest magics dealing with manipulating bodies, or more darker ones (though those might just be base systems anyone can use, but the DA is more experienced/has less moral issues with them).

The DA needs to be kept relatively low powered, because we have hemalurgy and thus have access to whatever we can steal from other people.