Dawn of a New Era

[+Ark1002]

You need to stop Meta. We don't belong to the DA, not a member. Only Mac believed that. We have three members in both, that is it.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Cited said:

I’d actually encourage the non-affiliated to join new guilds, mainly in order to add guilds beyond the big three. Just limiting it to three wouldn’t be unfortunate, but it does limit things somewhat.

I mean, I want the Keepers to be a thing... : )

The Palindrome model says that for ever great guild in gov, there is 1 minor one as well.  If a minor guild gets great status, then 2 more spots open up for minor guilds. So I think it still encourages them to exist.

[MetaTerminal he/him]

Could minor guilds not have the requirement to have people primarily affiliate with them? I’d think otherwise people would just flock to larger guilds.

[Kidpen he/him]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Palindrome said:

Sorry this took so long. I'm on mobile,  but that's small compared to the fact that I was trying tri write it like a constitution, rather than a simple explanation. Here's the easy one, taken largely from what we've seen here:

 

1. Each Great Guild (defined as we determine) has one seat in the Senate of Alleyversial Republic.

2. For each Great House seat there is one Minor House seat in the same Senate. These "popular" seats are filled by popular vote, not Senatorial appointment.

3. There is also one "public" seat, to which any citizen can be elected by true majority. Candidacy is reduced by a process of elimination until one candidate had more than half of all votes. Yes, this is important.

4. The Chancellor is appointed from and by the Senate.

5. Laws and decisions are made by majority rule of the Senate.

6. Ties are broken by the Chancellor's intervention, but the Chancellor gets no other vote.

7. The Senate can impeach the Chancellor by a supermajority (⅔)decision, and if convicted of felony or high crime, Chancellor is removed from office and punished by law.

8. Senators may be impeached by the decision of all other senators, and are likewise tried in a court of law. If convicted of a felony or high crime, they are removed from office and punished by law.

9. In the temporary absence of a Chancellor, ties are broken by popular vote.

10. In the temporary absence of a senator, the Chancellor votes in their place.

11. If war has been declared on the Allyversial Republic, the Chancellor and Senate may jointly declare a military state, in which only temporary laws may be enacted and all power is vested in the Chancellor.

 

That's it. The number of seats available to Minor Guilds keeps them from getting trampled out of principle, while the identity of the public senator can force the Senate's hand when selecting a Chancellor, though they aren't necessarily the Chancellor themself. The popular tie-breaking ensures that the Senate will think twice before impeaching the Chancellor. What do you think?

12. If Hitler is elected as chancellor, the Fascists win.

 

[Archer he/him]

*ahem* Fascism (and communism) are critiques of democracy. Electing Hitler would go against our ambition to be governed by a democracy. It's always better to choose leaders who support one of the styles of democracy: socialism, liberalism, and conservatism. 

*insert something funny here to lighten the mood*

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

Just now, Ookla the Paragon said:

*ahem* Fascism (and communism) are critiques of democracy. Electing Hitler would go against our ambition to be governed by a democracy. It's always better to choose leaders who support one of the styles of democracy: socialism, liberalism, and conservatism. 

*insert something funny here to lighten the mood*

*ahem* technically we are building a republic, not a democracy. (Or a constitutional monarchy for that matter. : P)

[Archer he/him]

*ahem* Merriam-Webster permits the usage of the word democracy in the common sense, to refer to 'a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections'.

You right, you right. My bad. Vive la republique!

[Karnatheon he/him]

That was a reference to the game "Secret Hitler" to clarify. Love that game.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

One quick question about the palindrome model, so the minor house is filled from reps from different non great house guilds?

the public seat is pure democracy? 

Finally, we need to bang out what qualifies a guild to be great. I think that people should first PM a mod about which guild they want to be counted for. Once we have those numbers the mods can share them with no names attached and then we determine the cut off for great guild.

 

Heres a quick question, do you think that people should be able to switch which guild they are accounted for on a moments notice?

Also, if they are, and that ends up bumping a guild out of great guild status, what should happen to the corresponding minor guild seat. 

Finally, how often are elections?

Edited December 15, 2018 by Ookla the [REDACTED]

[Ataraxian Wist she/her]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the [REDACTED] said:

One quick question about the palindrome model, so the minor house is filled from reps from different non great house guilds?

the public seat is pure democracy? 

Finally, we need to bang out what qualifies a guild to be great. I think that people should first PM a mod about which guild they want to be counted for. Once we have those numbers the mods can share them with no names attached and then we determine the cut off for great guild.

 

Heres a quick question, do you think that people should be able to switch which guild they are accounted for on a moments notice?

Also, if they are, and that ends up bumping a guild out of great guild status, what should happen to the corresponding minor guild seat. 

Finally, how often are elections?

I intentionally left election timing out, as I don't have much experience with the Allyverse and therefore have no understanding of its timeflow. That does need nailed down, but I can't do it personally.

The public seat basically just needs to be a wildcard for the other Senators, because the Senator who takes it is the original tie-breaker for the election of the Chancellor, and is a normal member or Chancellor afterwards, so I don't want the majority to belong to one group as part of the system. Otherwise, that group is basically in charge, and the others become figureheads. So I used the only method I could think of to accommodate those concerns. If the Chancellor is simply replaced by one of their own, then there will always be ties and the Chancellor will always break them in their own interest, so it's one-sided again. If you have another suggestion, I'm open, as I think are the others.

I already understood that as the way we would establish house status, actually, so no arguments here.

I did not account for that at all. But, if we make it so that the number of seats can only change with each election, then the number of major houses can be unknown until the voting is over, and then the top minor house candidates can be selected.

Would that work?

 

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Paragon said:

I'm still predicting that Darth will convince you to count yourself as one of them anyway, to give the Precursors legitimacy. Ink probably won't be active enough in the RP to count, and I'm guessing Clyde will go elsewhere. 

I won't as the Precursors, won't have a political position. This is becuase, as the people enforcing the laws, we cannot create them as this is a conflict of interest. We ar just law enforcers. I'm representing The Craftsmen, becuase they only have three members, total.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

So for which guilds are which, I think that the bare minimum a guild needs to have is 2. At that level they can be in the government. At a yet to be determined higher number, they are counted as a great guild.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

The people who have commented here seem to be pretty happy with that organization of government.  Though I posted an election system earlier, I didn't like it. This one I think is a big improvement. HOWEVER, I do not personally tend to post fully flushed out ideas.  When I do that, I get attached to them and usually want them to happen too much.  Instead what I like to do is post mostly flushed out ideas.  That way people can provide criticisms.

Just to be clear, I am using the word "census" to describe the act of figuring out who wants to be counted for each guild.

1. First there has to be an allyverse census, so that we can find out how many people each guild has according the the census.

2. Guild picks one of the people in their guild to be the Rep. (The guild must have at least 2 members according to the cesus)

3. If the census dictates this is a great guild, the rep automatically gets a spot in the congress. If this is a minor guild, they have to compete between however many spots are left.

4. Each guild gets votes to spend on trying to elect various people/guilds to office. The number of votes a minor guild gets is as follows: (number_open_gov_spots - 1). The number of votes a great guild is as follows: 1. You cannot spend more than 1 vote on any given individual. (eg. A guild cannot spend all three votes on themselves) (any guild with at least 1 member can vote)

The stuff in the spoiler is only relevent to the people who tally the votes, or to people who wish to do the math.

Spoiler

However, not all votes are created equal. Many guilds will have slightly differant strengths of their votes. Each vote has a base strength of 10, but an additional 2 strength is added for each person the census dictates is in that guild.
For example, if TUBA had 7 members (according to the census), their single vote would have a strength of 24. If the Ghostbloods had 5 members, their single vote would be 20. If the Keepers had 3 members, each of their votes would be worth 16.

 

Afterthoughts: the Public Seat should be counted as an "open gov position" for the sake of determining how many votes the minor guilds have, and that spot should be up for election alongside the minor guilds.

While I don't think this system is too complicated, I could 100% understand someone who thinks it is. (Which is why the unnecessary stuff is in the spoiler).  I just couldn't think of an easy way to make this simpler off the bat.

I am 100% open to any criticisms or thoughts people have on this concept.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Furamirionind
Bolded stuff for ease of reading.

[Ataraxian Wist she/her]

20 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

The people who have commented here seem to be pretty happy with that organization of government.  Though I posted an election system earlier, I didn't like it. This one I think is a big improvement. HOWEVER, I do not personally tend to post fully flushed out ideas.  When I do that, I get attached to them and usually want them to happen too much.  Instead what I like to do is post mostly flushed out ideas.  That way people can provide criticisms.

Just to be clear, I am using the word "census" to describe the act of figuring out who wants to be counted for each guild.

1. First there has to be an allyverse census, so that we can find out how many people each guild has according the the census.

2. Guild picks one of the people in their guild to be the Rep. (The guild must have at least 2 members according to the cesus)

3. If the census dictates this is a great guild, the rep automatically gets a spot in the congress. If this is a minor guild, they have to compete between however many spots are left.

4. Each guild gets votes to spend on trying to elect various people/guilds to office. The number of votes a minor guild gets is as follows: (number_open_gov_spots - 1). The number of votes a great guild is as follows: 1. You cannot spend more than 1 vote on any given individual. (eg. A guild cannot spend all three votes on themselves) (any guild with at least 1 member can vote)

The stuff in the spoiler is only relevent to the people who tally the votes, or to people who wish to do the math.

  Reveal hidden contents

However, not all votes are created equal. Many guilds will have slightly differant strengths of their votes. Each vote has a base strength of 10, but an additional 2 strength is added for each person the census dictates is in that guild.
For example, if TUBA had 7 members (according to the census), their single vote would have a strength of 24. If the Ghostbloods had 5 members, their single vote would be 20. If the Keepers had 3 members, each of their votes would be worth 16.

 

Afterthoughts: the Public Seat should be counted as an "open gov position" for the sake of determining how many votes the minor guilds have, and that spot should be up for election alongside the minor guilds.

While I don't think this system is too complicated, I could 100% understand someone who thinks it is. (Which is why the unnecessary stuff is in the spoiler).  I just couldn't think of an easy way to make this simpler off the bat.

I am 100% open to any criticisms or thoughts people have on this concept.

Yeah, I rather like that election system.

[MetaTerminal he/him]

I would be willing to organise the census to collect data, if others were amiable to my neutrality. (This probably doesn’t mean I’ll be able to dictate who is a Great Guild, just that I’ll be able to provide data to that effect.)

I’m not sure about weighting the votes by how many people have joined - it causes the large guilds to get larger and the small to get smaller. I think we’d be fine in using a simple majority vote, except in the case of a tie.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Cited said:

I'm not sure about weighting the votes by how many people have joined - it causes the large guilds to get larger and the small to get smaller. I think we’d be fine in using a simple majority vote, except in the case of a tie.

Yeah, that is definitely a potential issue. I tried to offset that by only giving major guilds 1 vote compared to the minor guilds 2-4... but it is still a lot.

Potentially if we change it from +2 per person to +1 per person? That should close the gap a bit more...

I didnt want to have every single guilds vote be the same as everyone elses... but I wasnt 100% sure how to do that. Any ideas? (Or we could just have them all be the same)

Edited December 15, 2018 by Furamirionind

[MacThorstenson he/him]

8 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

Yeah, that is definitely a potential issue. I tried to offset that by only giving major guilds 1 vote compared to the minor guilds 2-4... but it is still a lot.

Potentially if we change it from +2 per person to +1 per person? That should close the gap a bit more...

I didnt want to have every single guilds vote be the same as everyone elses... but I wasnt 100% sure how to do that. Any ideas? (Or we could just have them all be the same)

I think that having them all the same would be fine. And maybe we only have the minor guilds elect people to the minor guild spots in the government. Because great guilds are guaranteed a spot, I think giving the minor guilds the opportunity to figure out which ones among them should be in the government is a good idea.

[Archer he/him]

For this system to work, we need to know what guilds people want to counted as a member of. So, can I get everyone to PM me what guild they would like to be counted under? I'll give it a day, then PM anyone who doesn't send me a message. Once we get some data, I'll post it so people can change their choices if they want to. Thank you! 

(Also, I know not everyone filled this thread. So tell your friends and fellow guild members if you see them!)

Edited December 15, 2018 by Ookla the Paragon

[little wheel he/him]

THE TIMESKIP NEEDS TO BE TWO YEARS OR LESS PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE EVERYONE

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

15 hours ago, Ookla the [REDACTED] said:

Heres a quick question, do you think that people should be able to switch which guild they are accounted for on a moments notice?

Finally, how often are elections?

I don't think players should change what guild they count for on a moments notice, and that censuses should happen relatively often But that makes it more complicated... ultamately, this I think would be a question for the mods and what they think is best, as this system does put quite a bit of strain on them. I think the best system would probably be just to have people switch whenever they want.

I also am not qualified to estimate when elections should be.  Definitely after enough time that the gov can do stuff, but little enough time that it gives new players the option to get a role if they wish.

4 hours ago, Ookla the [REDACTED] said:

I think that having them all the same would be fine. And maybe we only have the minor guilds elect people to the minor guild spots in the government. Because great guilds are guaranteed a spot, I think giving the minor guilds the opportunity to figure out which ones among them should be in the government is a good idea.

When putting in the unequal votes, I was trying to factor for what I assumed would be a complaint of the system.  That guilds with more people have their votes worth less than guilds with few people (vote / number_of_people_in_guild). The biggest issues of this happening will be removed if we don't allow they great guilds to vote though...

So at least for starters, I think what you propose will be good. (Though I will be quick to re-propose this system if there are issues with this one that mirror my concerns.

I also like how Voidus' new player thread talks a LOT about cookies... even when they are talking about something completely differant, like guilds, they still managed to work cookies in there. : )

 

[Lord Meeker he/him]

On 12/13/2018 at 8:40 PM, Ookla the Ring said:

Is Mraizearchy was intended as a joke, shouldn't it be discounted as an option? I feel like most people won't want it to be in place, even though a surprising number voted for it, and it's just taking votes away from the places people would really vote for if it hadn't been included. I don't think one person being explicitly in control of everything would work out well, especially given that person is a RPer not a character.

You are right of course @Ookla the Ring. It is a title however.

----

So AS for the Gov. Where are we at. I totally didn't skim.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Ookla the Meeker

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

6 hours ago, Ookla the Paragon said:

For this system to work, we need to know what guilds people want to counted as a member of. So, can I get everyone to PM me what guild they would like to be counted under? I'll give it a day, then PM anyone who doesn't send me a message. Once we get some data, I'll post it so people can change their choices if they want to. Thank you! 

(Also, I know not everyone filled this thread. So tell your friends and fellow guild members if you see them!)

Just saying this again, The Precursors will not be represented in the government, they will instead be the people that the gov sends when someone breaks the rules.

[Archer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Just saying this again, The Precursors will not be represented in the government, they will instead be the people that the gov sends when someone breaks the rules.

So don't say the Precursors, everyone. Say TUBA!

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I'm going Craftsmen, so Mac can go DA. They only have three members, and they need two.

[Archer he/him]

1 minute ago, Darth Woodrack said:

I'm going Craftsmen, so Mac can go DA. They only have three members, and they need two.

The DA politely excused themselves from being considered for GG status. They want to remain separate. So you can't say them either. But you can say TUBA!