Dawn of a New Era

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

5 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Yes. These laws could work. Again, missed anything, tell me.

       This is a link

I can try to comment on this when I am less tired, and j now understand you were talking specifically about this type of law, which is definitely something that can be talked about now... however I am also in Gov building mode, so I probably won't be much help at this exact second... looks good for a starting point at the very least! : )

____________

... I may or may not have gone to bed at 7am today, due to doing rol much brainstorming in a doc on my phone...

Edited December 14, 2018 by Furamirionind

[old man moomba he/him]

I just had some lightning ideas:

- The Chancellor is able to suggest laws that can be voted on.

- Each house should be able to vote on laws that are in their sphere of influence (the thing I suggested earlier)

- For important laws, both houses have to vote.

- The Chancellor is responsible for approving laws and breaking ties.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I am just offering these laws as a starting point. These are the laws the citadel will be flowing, but they do not have to be the end all be all of laws. I'm still working on them, and am not done.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Darth Woodrack

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Dapper said:

I just had some lightning ideas:

- The Chancellor is able to suggest laws that can be voted on.

- Each house should be able to vote on laws that are in their sphere of influence (the thing I suggested earlier)

- For important laws, both houses have to vote.

- The Chancellor is responsible for approving laws and breaking ties.

My initial idea (2 days ago) was that the chancellors should be the one drafting laws, but I think that only works in a super small gov... it was 3 people when I suggested that. Lol.

I think giving tie breaks is good, veto can be good, though if you get a bad chancellor who vetos everything? I am not sure if veto power works when the majority of players probably don't understand irl politics all that well (myself included)

I like both houses voting on important laws, and I also like the houses having differant spheres of influence.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Furamirionind

[Gancho Libre he/him]

I think that there should be an 'Oligarchy' option, in case anyone wants a military-ruled government.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I don't think that would work for the greater alley verse.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

Oh, I just remembered why I had the votes be unanimous for what I posted earlier. For the first iteration of this gov, I would expect 3-4 great guilds, and I was considering saying we should have 4 (starting) minor guild spots. It just seems pretty easy to convince so few people to vote for an idea... though I think what Palindrome is going to post will probably fix that. : )

Also, one last question about elections for now... let me just copy thin in from my notes... :

Should the Chancellors election be an internal election among the gov officials, be the rep with the most votes, or be a completely separate election all together? Idk

Edited December 14, 2018 by Furamirionind

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

Separate. Every person in the Alleyverse gets one vote, and they can't vote for themselves. 

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

3 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Separate. Every person in the Alleyverse gets one vote, and they can't vote for themselves. 

I like the restriction as it forces people to think about their vote (though many probably still wont). However this will have a tenancy to give lots of power to the great guilds as they will have more people, who can all just decide to for for the same person/people.

That is why the idea of the guilds voting has been so prominant. It puts them all on a much more even footing.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Furamirionind

[MacThorstenson he/him]

I think that it shouldn't be put to the popular vote, that gives way too much power to the great guilds.

Instead I think that the chancellor should be another member of the great guild chamber that is elected by the normal guild chamber. 

[Karnatheon he/him]

So if I'm understanding correctly, each great guilds will have a rep, each regular guilds will have a rep, and the chancellor is voted on by the great guilds reps? Or the chancellor is a great guilds rep that the normal reps "promote" to chancellor?

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

My understanding currently is that:

1. Each great guild gets 1 rep in the great guild branch of the gov.

2. There are limited spots in the gov for minor guilds, so they will probably still have to campaign and run for office. (They will be elected to the minor guild branch)

3. Redacted's idea is that after all the seats of gov are solidified (except Chancellor), the minor guild reps vote for which great guild rep to promote to chancellor.

Nothing has been 100% solidified yet (partly as I assume this all will have to be run by Voidus/Archer before it can be considered solidified.). However I think in general the brainstorming has been decently successful so far.

(Actually I think the idea that we want guilds, not individuals to have votes seems pretty solidified.)

Edited December 14, 2018 by Furamirionind

[+Sorana she/her]

This might be a stupid question, but what is the gov allowed to do?

What is its purpose?

If I missed this, I'm sorry...

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

The pass laws and centralize the Alleyverse. Just bringing a bit more order, and allowing the 'criminal' plot line. It's not like someone tried to do this literally a week ago, by making a police force and he got an overwhelming force of, 'no, that would never work. we will never agree on a centralized code of laws. never' Not at all. It's not like that filled up a whole to pages of the chat thread. No way.

[Ataraxian Wist she/her]

Before I actually type this proposal up, which powers should be designated to which chamber? I mean, taxation makes sense as part of the Great Guilds one, just because each member of it is accountable to more people, while goverment spending (grants and such) makes more sense for the Minor Guilds chamber or as a joint decision, because otherwise the GG can just embezzle the entire... Planet? Is this system for the Allycity, Allyplanet, or Allyverse? Anywho, what other powers need to go to specific chambers?

 

 

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I actually think that tax should be treated locally, and not government ally*. So, a city taxes it's citizens, and then gives maybe, 10% of that tax up to the over all government. That way the cities keep some measure of independence, but the over government can stills support itself.

Other question; Where does the citadel fall? It is a city, but overall it is lead by 1 person, me. So, what political power does it have?

*The views to not reflect on my actual political views

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

It also provides a new system for RPing "wars" in peacefully. My character for instance who can't fight, now can, just in a different way. It is something that goes well with guild reform, because if guilds have agendas (even if they are just to become a Great Guild), this gives them a system to further their agendas, again encouraging more active guilds, with more people dedicated to each one. And encourages recruiting new homeless.  And then it also provides the RP opportunities for individuals like what Woodrack said. 

And on another note, it allows for tweaking in game rules... in game... (potentially like defining a Great Guild). This means we won't need to do quite so much OOC planning like this for rules.  Don't get me wrong, a lot will still happen, but I think some of that will become in-game discussion. Who would have thought that rules (other than me) were fun!

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Palindrome said:

Before I actually type this proposal up, which powers should be designated to which chamber? I mean, taxation makes sense as part of the Great Guilds one, just because each member of it is accountable to more people, while goverment spending (grants and such) makes more sense for the Minor Guilds chamber or as a joint decision, because otherwise the GG can just embezzle the entire... Planet? Is this system for the Allycity, Allyplanet, or Allyverse? Anywho, what other powers need to go to specific chambers?

I think this specifically something that is going to need to be discussed a bit more... For instance, is there a currency in the ally-verse? I personally haven't seen one. If not, that would make grants and taxes and so on kind of pointless. It could be a tax on resources, or a grant of, say, a military... however that would also need to be discussed a lot more first I think.

Do you think you may be able to type of how your proposal works, and then we can edit in what they would be doing later, or are those two linked in your system?

Edited December 14, 2018 by Furamirionind

[MacThorstenson he/him]

1 minute ago, Furamirionind said:

It also provides a new system for RPing "wars" in peacefully. My character for instance who can't fight, now can, just in a different way. It is something that goes well with guild reform, because if guilds have agendas (even if they are just to become a Great Guild), this gives them a system to further their agendas, again encouraging more active guilds, with more people dedicated to each one. And encourages recruiting new homeless.  And then it also provides the RP opportunities for individuals like what Woodrack said. 

And on another note, it allows for tweaking in game rules... in game... (potentially like defining a Great Guild). This means we won't need to do quite so much OOC planning like this for rules.  Don't get me wrong, a lot will still happen, but I think some of that will become in-game discussion. Who would have thought that rules (other than me) were fun!

I think this specifically something that is going to need to be discussed a bit more... For instance, is there a currency in the ally-verse? I personally haven't seen one. If not, that would make grants and taxes and so on kind of pointless. It could be a tax on resources, or a grant of, say, a military... however that would also need to be discussed a lot more first I think.

Do you think you may be able to type of how your proposal works, and then we can edit in what people would vote on later?

Aha! We do indeed have a currency! It is called chrysts, or crysts. 

Its never used and no one keeps track of how much they have, so it’s kind of useless. 

[old man moomba he/him]

Yes, there is: Crysts, coins of glass with various amounts of crystal in them, representing various denominations.

Did we clarify if the government is IC or OOC? Because we need other regulations if it's IC. 

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the [REDACTED] said:

Aha! We do indeed have a currency! It is called chrysts, or crysts. 

Its never used and no one keeps track of how much they have, so it’s kind of useless

lol, do we want to try and jump-start that as well, or should we focus on one major change at a time? lol

EDIT:

Quote

Yes, there is: Crysts, coins of glass with various amounts of crystal in them, representing various denominations.

Did we clarify if the government is IC or OOC? Because we need other regulations if it's IC. 

In my head, this gov was always IC.  It might be able to work OOC purely because each RPer is counted as 1 person for everything to do with this... But IDK how this would work OOC... I personally would much prefer my Zinc compounder elected than my boring self.

We haven't really started talking about regulations yet, but if you want to start that, I don't see why not. : )

Edited December 14, 2018 by Furamirionind

[old man moomba he/him]

 

Chamber responsibilities.

• Senate (Great guilds)
  • Taxation
  • Infrastructure
  • Census
  • Nominating non-elected government positions (Must be voted on by both houses)
• House (Smaller guilds)
  • Defense
  • Starting impeachment proceedings (Must be voted on by both houses)
  • Justice system
  • Spending
  • Appointing the Chancellor  

[+Sorana she/her]

Just a proposal: maybe try and focus the gov on something we can actually grasp and use in rp?

Put tax up for later, maybe some basic laws, if you feel like we need them, but apart from that, just try it out. If we put too many rules in place right now, in the end I can see it end with the chrysts. Nobody really keeps track of it, because its too complicated. We can always add things, if it works well.

 

As to non-fighters. None of my characters can fight, and I've had lots of fun so far, by trying out alternative solutions and with some creativity. I don't need them to be part of a gov or use economics as leverage.

[Ataraxian Wist she/her]

Just now, Dr. Dapper said:

 

Chamber responsibilities.

• Senate (Great guilds)
  • Taxation
  • Infrastructure
  • Census
  • Nominating non-elected government positions (Must be voted on by both houses)
• House (Smaller guilds)
  • Defense
  • Starting impeachment proceedings (Must be voted on by both houses)
  • Justice system
  • Spending
  • Appointing the Chancellor  

Great. That lines up pretty well. I'm curious as to why defense is with the House. Not that I have a particular reason it should be otherwise, but curious. Explain?

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

4 minutes ago, Sorana said:

Just a proposal: maybe try and focus the gov on something we can actually grasp and use in rp?

Put tax up for later, maybe some basic laws, if you feel like we need them, but apart from that, just try it out. If we put too many rules in place right now, in the end I can see it end with the chrysts. Nobody really keeps track of it, because its too complicated. We can always add things, if it works well.

 

As to non-fighters. None of my characters can fight, and I've had lots of fun so far, by trying out alternative solutions and with some creativity. I don't need them to be part of a gov or use economics as leverage.

Yep, that is what we are trying to do.  It was discussed earlier that we shouldn't make any more rules than we absolutely must for the moment, as that should be done IC.  Currenlt what is being discussed is purely how the system could work.  Personally, I see no advantage to trying to do this part IC.

Trying to figure out whether or not, or who should worry about taxes are relevent I think.  As long as we aren't getting into the details yet. 1 thing at a time.

Yes. I understand you don't need the gov as there are alternatives. I don't either, as I do understand there are alternatives. I personally love politics, which is why I am so adamant about the idea. Not as a replacement to alternative, but in addition to them.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Furamirionind

[+Sorana she/her]

Sorry, I miss a lot of pages while asleep, which I will be soon...

I simply feel like this is getting so complicated, that while we are trying to reduce how complicated the guilds are, we are creating the same here again.

I'm not opposed against the idea in general, don't get me wrong. I just wonder how to really pull this off in rp, without everybody loosing interest pretty soon.